How often does pressing cause fiber distortion over time?

[Hepcat]

Pressing involves the application of pressure, heat and perhaps moisture to paper fiber, which in most cases is decades old. Paper fiber being what it is should naturally revert, i.e. bounce back, to its pre-pressed condition over time - months, years, decades, whatever. But must this reversion necessarily have to be uniform?

 

Consider this slabbed comic:

 

 

Look at the accordion effect on the right edge. Now I don't see how any professional could have graded that comic as VF-. Maybe VG-. Therefore, we may conclude that the ripples showed up after the comic was graded and slabbed. Do the ripples look like the effect of distressed paper fibers reverting to a previous unpressed state at uneven rates?

 

[VintageComics]

Do the ripples look like the effect of distressed paper fibers reverting to a previous unpressed state at uneven rates?

 

 

No.

 

It's very possible that the book looked that way when it was graded.

It's also very possible that the book was stored in a moist environment and that even though it was wavy when graded, it became more so after it was graded.

[Mike's Rack]

Do the ripples look like the effect of distressed paper fibers reverting to a previous unpressed state at uneven rates?

 

 

No.

 

It's very possible that the book looked that way when it was graded.

It's also very possible that the book was stored in a moist environment and that even though it was wavy when graded, it became more so after it was graded.

I agree, there are too many unknowns about that book. Did it get that grade with the warping? Did it get moist afterward? I'm guessing it was exposed to moisture after it was slabbed. If this was a common occurance, we would see it more often.

[joeypost]

Looks more like moisture damage to me. I also see a few pressable defects along the top and bottom edges of the spine indicating this book was most likely "not pressed". I see waves created on the top and outside edges of books by the inner well being too tight, but that is not the case here.

[Hepcat]

Moisture damage was my first thought, but the area of warping looks too even. I mean even if someone deliberately dipped the slab in water the area of damage would not likely be so even. I'm therefore leaning toward the hypothesis that it was something else.

 

 

 

[TheMightyJohn]

Looks like moisture damage but I would imagine that it looked like that when it was slabbed.

[joeypost]

Moisture damage was my first thought, but the area of warping looks too even. I mean even if someone deliberately dipped the slab in water the area of damage would not likely be so even. I'm therefore leaning toward the hypothesis that it was something else.

 

 

 

I see a lot of moisture damaged books that look exactly like this book. This could have been in between other books with only 1/2 inch of the book sticking out. There are many factors as to why a book could look like this, but to say whoever pressed it missed 1/2 inch of the book is stretching it. And if it were to revert it would be evenly distributed.

[Junkdrawer]

Percentage of old label books that were professionally pressed is low and odds are this book wasn't pressed.

[zzutak]

Moisture damage was my first thought, but the area of warping looks too even. I mean even if someone deliberately dipped the slab in water the area of damage would not likely be so even. I'm therefore leaning toward the hypothesis that it was something else.

 

I see a lot of mosisture damaged books that look exactly like this book. This could have been in between other books with only 1/2 inch of the book sticking out. There are many factors as to why a book could look like this, but to say whoever pressed it missed 1/2 inch of the book is stretching it. And if it were to revert it would be evenly distributed.

Based on my experience, Joe is correct. This is exactly what can happen when the edge of an unbagged book protrudes beyond the edge of the stack that contains it. If the storage environment is humid enough, moisture rippling (and possibly foxing) will eventually develop along the exposed edge. Scores of books from the River City Collection had this type of rippling. In my opinion, a grade of FN/VF or VF- is reasonable, provided the back cover and interior pages are essentially unblemished.

[Tony S]

Pressing involves the application of pressure, heat and perhaps moisture to paper fiber, which in most cases is decades old. Paper fiber being what it is should naturally revert, i.e. bounce back, to its pre-pressed condition over time - months, years, decades, whatever. But must this reversion necessarily have to be uniform?

 

[Look at the accordion effect on the right edge. Now I don't see how any professional could have graded that comic as VF-. Maybe VG-. Therefore, we may conclude that the ripples showed up after the comic was graded and slabbed. Do the ripples look like the effect of distressed paper fibers reverting to a previous unpressed state at uneven rates?

 

 

I might be repeating much of what others have said, but my

 

1) VG- is way to strict. We all know CGC grades older books a bit more lax than new ones and this one is from 1947. 7.5 might be a little high, but not insanely high. If the ripples were pressed out the book would likely grade 9.0 or better.

 

2) Old label books are rarely pressed. To the degree that one can tell from a picture of a slabbed comic, this book doesn't look to have been pressed.

 

3) I don't know that it can be stated with authority that pressed paper will over time revert back to it's pre-pressed state. Paper's "natural, pre-pressed state" is in fact flat & smooth, just like when it left the paper mill. So if paper did in fact want to revert back to it's natural state, Pressing would be unnecessary. All collectors would need to do is leave their books alone and defects would over time disappear.

 

Seeing the book reminds me that I like have the nomenclature grade as well as the numeric on the CGC label. T

[Hepcat]

There are many factors as to why a book could look like this, but to say whoever pressed it missed 1/2 inch of the book is stretching it.

 

But I wasn't trying to imply that whoever might have pressed the comic missed a half inch.

 

And if it were to revert it would be evenly distributed.

 

Yes, reversion was precisely my concern. Paper fibers expanding out to the side upon the application of heat and pressure and then contracting non-uniformly to create a ripple effect was my fear. Why should sixty year old paper fibers necessarily contract uniformly? That would be stretching the bounds of probability, particularly since staples are acting to hold the paper on the other side of the ripples in place.

 

In fact, applying heat and pressure to cheap pulp several decades old would on the surface seem to be an insane idea.

 

Based on my experience, Joe is correct. This is exactly what can happen when the edge of an unbagged book protrudes beyond the edge of the stack that contains it. If the storage environment is humid enough, moisture rippling (and possibly foxing) will eventually develop along the exposed edge.

 

But that's the problem here. I see none of the other tell tale clues of moisture damage. No foxing, fading, graininess, none of the other things I typically associate with water damage. That's why I suspect another factor was the culprit here.

 

[joeypost]

There are many factors as to why a book could look like this, but to say whoever pressed it missed 1/2 inch of the book is stretching it.

 

But I wasn't trying to imply that whoever might have pressed the comic missed a half inch.

 

And if it were to revert it would be evenly distributed.

 

Yes, reversion was precisely my concern. Paper fibers expanding out to the side upon the application of heat and pressure and then contracting non-uniformly to create a ripple effect was my fear. Why should sixty year old paper fibers necessarily contract uniformly? That would be stretching the bounds of probability, particularly since staples are acting to hold the paper on the other side of the ripples in place.

 

In fact, applying heat and pressure to cheap pulp several decades old would on the surface seem to be an insane idea.

 

Based on my experience, Joe is correct. This is exactly what can happen when the edge of an unbagged book protrudes beyond the edge of the stack that contains it. If the storage environment is humid enough, moisture rippling (and possibly foxing) will eventually develop along the exposed edge.

 

But that's the problem here. I see none of the other tell tale clues of moisture damage. No foxing, fading, graininess, none of the other things I typically associate with water damage. That's why I suspect another factor was the culprit here.

 

 

My comments were made on many, many experiences over the years with unpressed books that had the exact issues the book you used as an example have. Could other factors be in play here? Absolutley. Is this a result of a book reverting? While I cannot say yes with an absolute certainty, the other scenarios offered are significantly more likely.

 

Please keep in mind you can have significant rippling and waves without any other signs of damage. Water damage and moisture damage are really two different animals.

[Hepcat]

Percentage of old label books that were professionally pressed is low and odds are this book wasn't pressed.

 

Pressing though can't be said to be only a recent scourge of the 21st century. In fact when asked about CGC's policy with respect to pressing, Steve Borock's response was "Who cares? Really, when you get down to it, dealers and smart hobbyists have been doing it for years and years." Old label books are therefore not necessarily that much less likely to have been pressed.

 

1) VG- is way to strict.... 7.5 might be a little high, but not insanely high.

 

Oh come on. I see a written initial, I see creases near both right corners, I see an upper left corner ding, I see rounding of all the corners and I see staple discolouration as well. What was CGC doing that day, having a "Bring in your reader copy and fifty bucks and we'll give you a 7.5!" sale at some little known convention in Florida or Texas?

 

But I don't believe that. To me it's pretty obvious that the rippling developed after the comic was slabbed. And I'm wondering why.

 

 

We all know CGC grades older books a bit more lax than new ones and this one is from 1947.

 

I guess they've bought into the rallying cry of every flea market and Ebay shyster "Well it's mint for it's age!"

 

 

[Hepcat]

My comments were made on many, many experiences over the years with unpressed books that had the exact issues the book you used as an example have.

 

As collectors we've all had many, many experiences with unpressed books. In fact that was the sum total of all our experiences until perhaps 25-35 years ago. How is your experience/insight in this area superior to most?

 

[joeypost]

My comments were made on many, many experiences over the years with unpressed books that had the exact issues the book you used as an example have.

 

As collectors we've all had many, many experiences with unpressed books. In fact that was the sum total of all our experiences until perhaps 25-35 years ago. How is your experience/insight in this area superior to most?

 

 

How? By handling many more books than the average collector. I also live in Florida and see the results of books that were stored improperly in conditions that had high humidity and hotter than average temperatures.

[Ze-man]

That is a D "Crippen" copy, right?

 

Which sat in a garage for years exposed to heat and moisture, damaging many of the comics depending on where they sat in the stacks.

 

Just sayin.

 

Occams Razor and all that.

 

[joeypost]

[Hepcat]

That is a D "Crippen" copy, right?

 

Which sat in a garage for years exposed to heat and moisture, damaging many of the comics depending on where they sat in the stacks.

 

Just sayin.

 

Occams Razor and all that.

 

But then that leaves the 7.5 grade a quandary. Was the grader drunk that day or what?

 

 

And of course there's still my more general question. I would think that applying heat and pressure to decades old pulp would not be a good idea in general and I'm wondering how many years on average it would take for the adverse effects to become painfully obvious.

 

[VintageComics]

But then that leaves the 7.5 grade a quandary. Was the grader drunk that day or what?

 

 

It's a CGC 7.5. I'd much more trust the opinion of a group of graders than trying to grade a book from a scan. Even if it's over graded, it happens some times.

 

 

And of course there's still my more general question. I would think that applying heat and pressure to decades old pulp would not be a good idea in general and I'm wondering how many years on average it would take for the adverse effects to become painfully obvious.

 

 

Probably never if done properly.

 

 

[Ze-man]

That is a D "Crippen" copy, right?

 

Which sat in a garage for years exposed to heat and moisture, damaging many of the comics depending on where they sat in the stacks.

 

Just sayin.

 

Occams Razor and all that.

 

But then that leaves the 7.5 grade a quandary. Was the grader drunk that day or what?

 

 

And of course there's still my more general question. I would think that applying heat and pressure to decades old pulp would not be a good idea in general and I'm wondering how many years on average it would take for the adverse effects to become painfully obvious.

 

 

I imagine one could chalk the grade up to several things.

 

GA Bump

 

Pedigree Bump

 

Crippen exception

 

Old Label

 

When I talked to Litch about the book today he said the rippling fell into a 7.5 grade because it did not leave water damage tideline stains..the stain on the BC though did.

 

Go figure.

 

As far as heat affecting old newsprint, I would not be one to say it is 100% benign. But neither is buying/selling/storing/shipping Pedigree comics around the world a couple dozen times subjecting them to who knows what variations in temp or humidity.

 

But nobody has issue with how this might affect a comic because it is an essential part of the hobby.

 

Granted, if some dimwit cranks up a heat press with no skill, or regard to what he is doing...yes that could be harmful for comics.

 

Now I better leave before this turns into another pressing thread.