Tales from the Island of Serendip 4 4

[Flex Mentallo]

 

The cartoons are great.

 

Of course, my point need I say it, is that it is pure serendipity that we are here at all, instead of, say, intelligent dinosaurs.

[mysterio]

 

The cartoons are great.

 

Of course, my point need I say it, is that it is pure serendipity that we are here at all, instead of, say, intelligent dinosaurs.

 

Definitely true about us, but I'm not so sure about dinosaur intelligence. They did just fine for much longer than we've been around, so even if they were still here (still unlikely due to the colder climate, but we're just speculating here) what would drive the evolution of greater intelligence?

[Flex Mentallo]

 

Of course, my point need I say it, is that it is pure serendipity that we are here at all, instead of, say, intelligent dinosaurs.

 

Definitely true about us, but I'm not so sure about dinosaur intelligence. They did just fine for much longer than we've been around, so even if they were still here (still unlikely due to the colder climate, but we're just speculating here) what would drive the evolution of greater intelligence?

 

Well, had they survived, they would've encountered the same environmental challenges as apes did.

 

(Of course, it was a long journey from primitive mammals to apes over many millions of years before australopithecus arrived on the scene. And it seems there were multiple sub-species of proto-humans well before cro magnon and neanderthals vied for supremacy - if indeed they did. The may just have intermarried, and we do in fact have neanderthal genes.)

 

So maybe there was a dinosaur that had the potential to evolve hands. Mind you, if they were as dumb as,say, turkeys, the world might still be populated with really dumb dinosaurs, we'd still be voles, or extinct, and intelligence would not have become a survival trait.

[mysterio]

 

Of course, my point need I say it, is that it is pure serendipity that we are here at all, instead of, say, intelligent dinosaurs.

 

Definitely true about us, but I'm not so sure about dinosaur intelligence. They did just fine for much longer than we've been around, so even if they were still here (still unlikely due to the colder climate, but we're just speculating here) what would drive the evolution of greater intelligence?

 

Well, had they survived, they would've encountered the same environmental challenges as apes did.

 

(Of course, it was a long journey from primitive mammals to apes over many millions of years before australopithecus arrived on the scene. And it seems there were multiple sub-species of proto-humans well before cro magnon and neanderthals vied for supremacy - if indeed they did. The may just have intermarried, and we do in fact have neanderthal genes.)

 

So maybe there was a dinosaur that had the potential to evolve hands. Mind you, if they were as dumb as,say, turkeys, the world might still be populated with really dumb dinosaurs, we'd still be voles, or extinct, and intelligence would not have become a survival trait.

 

Millions of species were affected by the same environmental changes that hit the apes, but none outside the primates appear to have adapted to those changes through increased intelligence. Of those primates, only one (or a few, it is still unclear but evidence has mounted for an adaptive radiation of bipeds) evolved bipedality, and even fewer still developed serious behavioral complexity (probably just us and Neandertals). Primates were basically pre-adapted for the course we took due to their larger average brains and opposable digits, due in some measure to either arboreal life or insect predation (maybe both). Climate change and the competition it spawned within the primates forced the apes into a tough spot, with early hominids evolving novel adaptations as a response.

 

Dinosaurs, with their much different suite of traits, likely would have doubled down on some other set of adaptations to survive. That's my anyway.

[Flex Mentallo]

Broadly speaking I agree. There is an argument that says h. sapiens sapiens is a merging of cro magnon and neanderthal.

 

At that point perhaps 'self awareness' has evolved, and a marriage of subspecies is negotiated, rather than randomly selected. 'We' take control of our own evolution, if inadvertently. And it seems there was not one single line of descent, but many, in Africa.

 

But dolphins and whales also appear to have self awareness, though it is still debated. We dont think the same way, so how can we ever be sure?

 

And the creature with the closest brain structure to 'us'?

 

The octopus.

[Cat-Man_America]

Broadly speaking I agree. There is an argument that says h. sapiens sapiens is a merging of cro magnon and neanderthal.

 

At that point perhaps 'self awareness' has evolved, and a marriage of subspecies is negotiated, rather than randomly selected. 'We' take control of our own evolution, if inadvertently. And it seems there was not one single line of descent, but many, in Africa.

 

But dolphins and whales also appear to have self awareness, though it is still debated. We dont think the same way, so how can we ever be sure?

 

And the creature with the closest brain structure to 'us'?

 

The octopus.

 

Self-awareness is no indication of intellect. Dinosaur evolution may have been trumped by the intervention of a catastrophic event, but the limits of human intellectual evolution appears to trump itself on a daily basis.

[Flex Mentallo]

Broadly speaking I agree. There is an argument that says h. sapiens sapiens is a merging of cro magnon and neanderthal.

 

At that point perhaps 'self awareness' has evolved, and a marriage of subspecies is negotiated, rather than randomly selected. 'We' take control of our own evolution, if inadvertently. And it seems there was not one single line of descent, but many, in Africa.

 

But dolphins and whales also appear to have self awareness, though it is still debated. We dont think the same way, so how can we ever be sure?

 

And the creature with the closest brain structure to 'us'?

 

The octopus.

 

Self-awareness is no indication of intellect. Dinosaur evolution may have been trumped by the intervention of a catastrophic event, but the limits of human intellectual evolution appears to trump itself on a daily basis.

 

Then what is self awareness an indication of? And how do you trump limits? Stephen Jay Gould's argument is that we are only here by accident, because other dominant phyla died out. I see no reason why octopi might not have ended up 'ruling' (sic) the earth in other circumstances.

 

As for humanity, if we were truly self aware, the sub-prime mortgage scandal would not have driven the world economy over the edge of a cliff because of reckless greed. At least dinosaurs had the excuse of a giant asteroid. When we become extinct, will we have a similar excuse?

 

Danger, intellects at work

 

Intellect is no indication of wisdom.

[Flex Mentallo]

Our impact on the environment since the 1950's has been so great that many scientists now feel it is legitimate to refer to the modern age as the Anthropocene Epoch.

 

I havent done much research into this but here is Wikipedia:

 

'Humankind has entered what is sometimes called the Earth's sixth major extinction.Most experts agree that human activities have accelerated the rate of species extinction. The exact rate remains controversial – perhaps 100 to 1000 times the normal background rate of extinction. In 2010 a study published in Nature found that "marine phytoplankton – the vast range of tiny algae species accounting for roughly half of Earth's total photosynthetic biomass – had declined substantially in the world's oceans over the past century. From 1950 alone, algal biomass decreased by around 40%, probably in response to ocean warming – and that the decline had gathered pace in recent years. Some authors have postulated that without human impacts the biodiversity of the planet would continue to grow at an exponential rate.– implying that human activities accelerate or exacerbate global warming.

 

Increases in global rates of extinction have been elevated above background rates since at least 1500, and appear to have accelerated in the 19th century and further since.

 

A 13 July 2012 New York Times op-ed by ecologist Roger Bradbury predicted the end of biodiversity for the oceans, labelling coral reefs doomed: "Coral reefs will be the first, but certainly not the last, major ecosystem to succumb to the Anthropocene." This op-ed quickly generated much discussion among conservationists; The Nature Conservancy rebutted Bradbury on its website, defending its position of protecting coral reefs despite continued human impacts causing reef declines.

 

In a pair of studies published in 2015, extrapolation from observed extinction of Hawaiian snails led to the conclusion that "the biodiversity crisis is real", and that 7% of all species on Earth may have disappeared already

[Cat-Man_America]

Broadly speaking I agree. There is an argument that says h. sapiens sapiens is a merging of cro magnon and neanderthal.

 

At that point perhaps 'self awareness' has evolved, and a marriage of subspecies is negotiated, rather than randomly selected. 'We' take control of our own evolution, if inadvertently. And it seems there was not one single line of descent, but many, in Africa.

 

But dolphins and whales also appear to have self awareness, though it is still debated. We dont think the same way, so how can we ever be sure?

 

And the creature with the closest brain structure to 'us'?

 

The octopus.

 

Self-awareness is no indication of intellect. Dinosaur evolution may have been trumped by the intervention of a catastrophic event, but the limits of human intellectual evolution appears to trump itself on a daily basis.

 

Then what is self awareness an indication of? And how do you trump limits?

 

Self-awareness is an indicator of self-importance. It is a by-product of survival instincts combined with insecurity that emanates from the belief that having reached the top of the food chain should guarantee infinite superiority over all things lacking sufficient means to achieve it.

Limiting exposure to influence of the trumps should produce a more natural balance.

[Flex Mentallo]

dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum

 

Rene Descartes said there must be a thinking entity—in this case the self—for there to be a thought. "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am”

 

Self-awareness is the capacity for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.

 

Know thyself, said Socrates, repeatedly.

 

Go far enough, and you inevitably arrive, not at consciousness, but at conscience.

 

The opposite of self awareness is anosognosia, more commonly known as a lack of insight. That is, if you lack self awareness, you cannot know it, because you are unable to recognize the need.

[Flex Mentallo]

Philosophical accounts of self-awareness concern the particular ways in which we are aware of our own subjectivity, of the way in which we are aware of our experiences as our own, as well as our awareness of aspects of our own experiences. To whom (or what) could experiences belong, if not to a self? Who is it that is aware of the phenomenal feel of experience, if not a self? Of whom am I aware when I am self-aware, if not a self? To whom do I refer when I employ the first-person pronoun, if not to my self ?

Matthew MacKenzie

 

Tests for self awareness have been successfully conducted on many animals (our right to test them notwithstanding a single instant's scrutiny of course) including apes, monkeys, elephants, magpies and dolphins.

 

"Animals that can recognize themselves in mirrors can conceive of themselves,"

Gordon Gallup

 

We cannot know if dinosaurs had self awareness, but much of their behavior - say, mating and courtship rituals, are strikingly similar to birds - and crows and parrots are demonstrably among the most intelligent - and self aware - animals alive today.

 

And they are direct descendants of the dinosaurs, or perhaps of an ancestor common to both.

[Flex Mentallo]

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin was a Jesuit priest and a palaeontogist, who attempted to reconcile his faith with the scientific evidence of evolution. He took part in the discovery of Peking Man and in excavations in the prehistoric painted caves at the Cave of Castillo in the northwest of Spain. In his book Le Phénomène Humain he argued that "evolution is an ascent toward consciousness". Rome subsequently forbade him to write or teach on philosophical subjects or to attend the International Congress of Paleontology in 1955. His books were not to be sold in Catholic bookshops and were not to be translated into other languages.

 

He wrote “evolution is the natural landscape where the history of salvation is situated.”

 

Teilhard also states that "evolution is an ascent toward consciousness"

 

He was later rehabilitated by advocates within the church, Here is Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI):

 

It must be regarded as an important service of Teilhard de Chardin’s that he rethought these ideas from the angle of the modern view of the world and, in spite of a not entirely unobjectionable tendency toward the biological approach, nevertheless on the whole grasped them correctly and in any case made them accessible once again. Let us listen to his own words: The human monad “can only be absolutely itself by ceasing to be alone”. In the background is the idea that in the cosmos, alongside the two orders or classes of the infinitely small and the infinitely big, there is a third order, which determines the real drift of evolution, namely, the order of the infinitely complex. It is the real goal of the ascending process of growth or becoming; it reaches a first peak in the genesis of living things and then continues to advance to those highly complex creations that give the cosmos a new center.

 

Though I do not subscribe to his views (being an atheist), I am a big fan of Teilhard's because he tried in such an intensely reflective (and therefore self aware) manner so bravely to reconcile faith and reason.

 

In scientific circles, he was equally polarizing:

 

"the greater part of it is nonsense, tricked out with a variety of metaphysical conceits, and its author can be excused of dishonesty only on the grounds that before deceiving others he has taken great pains to deceive himself".

Peter Medawar (Nobel Prize-winner)

 

"The Phenomenon of Man is the quintessence of bad poetic science"

Richard Dawkins

 

By contrast:

"Teilhard was one of the first scientists to realize that the human and the universe are inseparable. The only universe we know about is a universe that brought forth the human."

Brian Swimme

 

To me, what is most interesting is that Teilhard's view regards higher consciousness as the underlying evolutionary imperative. That would presumably include life elsewhere in the universe- and arguably, creatures on earth other than humanity, either now or in the future.

 

 

[Cat-Man_America]

dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum

 

Rene Descartes said there must be a thinking entity—in this case the self—for there to be a thought. "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am”

 

Self-awareness is the capacity for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.

 

Know thyself, said Socrates, repeatedly.

 

Go far enough, and you inevitably arrive, not at consciousness, but at conscience.

 

The opposite of self awareness is anosognosia, more commonly known as a lack of insight. that is, if you lack self awareness, you cannot know it, because you are unable to recognise the need.

 

What then of the self aware entity that lacks the capacity for introspection? The recognition of oneself being separate from one's environment ...and by extension separate from other individuals, does not indicate a lack of self-awareness, but rather an obsession with it. Conscience implies empathy or at least the capacity for it. When knowing thyself is supplanted by knowledge of how one is perceived by others, insight becomes a manipulative tool that can be used by self absorbed sociopaths to appear more reasonable to those needed for empathetic support.

 

Dinosaurs didn't look to the heavens for an answer to their evolutionary dilemma, it arrived unannounced. Given how long we've been here and the long evolutionary path dinosaurs took prior to their untimely extinction, we cannot say with absolute certainty that saurians didn't have an evolutionary spurt providing some advanced bipedal species with self awareness. Fossil remains being what they are, we might never resolve that 50 million year old question. Hey, maybe there was a saurian philosopher who foresaw the end days and monkeys taking over the earth. Oh, wait a minute, that's been done.

 

We all play the cards we're dealt. All things being equal, I prefer hands that can be played in no trump.

[Flex Mentallo]

dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum

 

Rene Descartes said there must be a thinking entity—in this case the self—for there to be a thought. "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am”

 

Self-awareness is the capacity for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.

 

Know thyself, said Socrates, repeatedly.

 

Go far enough, and you inevitably arrive, not at consciousness, but at conscience.

 

The opposite of self awareness is anosognosia, more commonly known as a lack of insight. that is, if you lack self awareness, you cannot know it, because you are unable to recognise the need.

 

What then of the self aware entity that lacks the capacity for introspection? The recognition of oneself being separate from one's environment ...and by extension separate from other individuals does not indicate a lack of self-awareness, but rather an obsession with it. Conscience implies empathy or at least the capacity for it. Knowing thyself is supplanted by knowing how one is perceived by others, insight being a manipulative tool used by self aware sociopaths to appear more reasonable by those needed for empathetic support. We all play the cards we're dealt. All things being equal, I'm an advocate of hands that can be played in no trump.

 

Dinosaurs didn't look to the heavens for an answer to their evolutionary dilemma, it arrived unannounced. Given how long we've been here and the long evolutionary path dinosaurs took prior to their untimely extinction, we cannot say with absolute certainty that saurians didn't have an evolutionary spurt providing some advanced bipedal species with self awareness. Fossil remains being what they are, we might never resolve that 50 million year old question. Hey, maybe there was a saurian philosopher who foresaw the end days and monkeys taking over the earth. Oh, wait a minute, that's been done.

 

I agree.

[sacentaur]

An article on Julian Jaynes:

 

http://nautil.us/issue/24/error/consciousness-began-when-the-gods-stopped-speaking

[Flex Mentallo]

An article on Julian Jaynes:

 

http://nautil.us/issue/24/error/consciousness-began-when-the-gods-stopped-speaking

 

Absolutely fascinating. I'm sure I've read something about him because the part about the Greeks not having a modern consciousness rings a bell, but I definitely haven't read his book.

 

Reading the article, he has the kind of intellect I admire most - an iconoclast, willing to stand by his convictions in the teeth of a howling gale.

 

All sorts of recollections were stirred -

 

Allen Upward, on early humans, 'When people saw other people as trees walking, and trees as people standing still."

 

And of course, GBS in 'Man and Superman'

 

'The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.'

 

The notion that consciousness emerges from language raises a couple of interesting thoughts as well. Do dolphins have a language?

 

The difference between language and communication

 

And here is Wittgenstein:

 

The whole modern conception of the world is founded on the illusion that the so-called laws of nature are the explanations of natural phenomena.

 

Thus people today stop at the laws of nature, treating them as something inviolable, just as God and Fate were treated in past ages. And in fact both were right and both wrong; though the view of the ancients is clearer insofar as they have an acknowledged terminus, while the modern system tries to make it look as if everything were explained.

Tractatus

 

Tractatus was the only work published in his lifetime, and is only 76 pages long.

 

Wittgenstein argues that language has an underlying logical structure, a structure that provides the limits of what can be said meaningfully, and therefore the limits of what can be thought.

 

"What we can say at all can be said clearly," he argues. Anything beyond that—religion, ethics, aesthetics, the mystical—cannot be discussed. They are not in themselves nonsensical, but any statement about them must be.

 

I find Wittgenstein interesting because he seemingly went back on his original argument in his later work, published posthumously.

 

I remember seeing the play Jumpers by Tom Stoppard at the National Theatre in London many years ago, in which a philosopher played by Michael Horden hilariously ties himself in verbal knots much as Wittgenstein did. He vocalizes a chain of thought that is in fact a true story:

 

Someone apparently went up to the great philosopher Wittgenstein and said "What a lot of m*rons back in the Middle Ages must have been to have looked, every morning, at the dawn and to have thought what they were seeing was the Sun going around the Earth," when every school kid knows that the Earth goes around the Sun, to which Wittgenstein replied, "Yeah, but I wonder what it would have looked like if the Sun had been going around the Earth?"

 

Critic Terry Eagleton has described Wittgenstein as the philosopher of poets and composers, playwrights and novelists.

 

Which raises another question. Do whales sing?

 

[Pat Calhoun]

human physical development also important

 

 

 

[Flex Mentallo]

[Pat Calhoun]

This is great. Made me think of Jack Williamson’s ‘The Legion of Time’ where 2 future forces fight to control a moment of the past. A little kid out in the woods will either pick up a discarded magnet or a round stone. If he picks up the stone he puts it in his sling and kills a singing bird. If he picks up the magnet he will become a scientist & invent a way to tap atomic energy & usher in new era as humans develop mentally & spiritually with the power they control.

 

This is a hardback from my deceased bro’s collection that we built up in the 1960s. He wrote the date he got it on inside: Jan 8, 1962…

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2016 by Pat Calhoun

[Flex Mentallo]

Nice one Pat. Do we change the past by studying it? I just adore books on time travel, and I guess paleontology & comparative mythology are a portal of sorts.