Copper's Heating/Selling Well on Ebay 33 33

[500Club]

Truth is there is a growing segment of collectors that don't care about being within a story or what "counts".

 

 

How big is this "growing segment"? How do you know it is growing, rather than shrinking? Where did this segment start? How did it start? Of whom is it comprised?

We have a closeted view here on the boards. A couple of vocal tubthumpers can subconsciously make it seem the view is more prevalent than it is.

 

In the larger world, we don't get asked for these books at shows. No Previews requests. No Marvel Age requests. Nothing. And nothing on display at other booths, either.

 

In the LCSs, nothing... No retailers I talk to mention these books as being asked for or selling.

[chrisco37]

Truth is there is a growing segment of collectors that don't care about being within a story or what "counts".

 

 

How big is this "growing segment"? How do you know it is growing, rather than shrinking? Where did this segment start? How did it start? Of whom is it comprised?

 

Comprised of people that don't have the accepted first appearance.

[Plantman]

eBay is still littered with affordable copies, but there has been a few sales of Tales of the New Teen Titans #1 over the past two weeks in the $6-10 range.

[EwanUK]

I respect everyone's views on this first appearance subject - but as with all things, at the end of the day the market speaks in terms of (commercial) value, but even then, that may be inconsistent

 

My view is (and seriously) a quantum one

 

In that you can have multiple "first appearances" - and that is entirely acceptable, it doesn't have to be there or here...

 

Here's a British example (just for variety)

 

Judge Dredd - the strip begins in 2000AD no.2 (so fandom regards this as the character's first appearance)

 

However, in 2000AD no.1, Judge Dredd appears in a "coming next week" advert (so that is literally his "first" appearance")

 

However, the previous week, several other comics from the same publisher contain 4 page previews with Judge Dredd in... (so now, that is actually the literal first appearance...)

 

But then... it comes to light in a fanzine, Judge Dredd appears in a news-story... and so on...

 

They all have merit and all are collectible...

 

And don't get me started on Marvelman / Miracleman...

 

p.s. Hulk 180 is CLEARLY Wolverine's 1st appearance

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aweandlorder]

It's all about the cover.

Always has been.

 

That is the only rational explanation for the Gambit argument.

 

Look at the two Bishop comics, 282 and 283.

If he wasn't on the cover for 282, I guarantee 283 would dwarf it in price. As it is now, it's basically a split down the middle.

 

The Gambit and Bishop examples always pop in my head when it comes to these sort of arguments...

 

(5,000th post!!! )

 

haha

 

None for none but Ill take an Art Adams cover over Kubert any day.. Including that one.. And especially in the 80s when AAdams was a rising star..

Just me though

 

BTW I dont agree that its your 5,000 post.. I believe that your first appearance was when you signed on to the boards

[MrWeen]

 

Marvel Requirer 11 is the first appearance and cover for Darkhawk.

 

 

Also I dare anyone to produce a published definition from overstreet etc. that states that a first appearance has to exist inside a story or be meaningful in any way.

 

What does "meaningful" mean? I don't use adjective qualifiers, because those words have different shades of meaning to just about everyone.

 

And you know that any "published definition" is also just someone's opinion?

 

Here's the crux: you'll be hard pressed to find a "published definition" because it's been self-evident for decades. No one bothered to publish a definition, because no one disputed it. If you had said "well, the first appearance of this character is really on this bookmark promo", that would have been dismissed, and rightfully so.

 

So, no need to dare...it doesn't exist, nor should it.

 

Even the term Cameo simply means debut and a debut in comic terms and the literal definition simply states that it is the first time a character appears. Appears. Not appears in a story or on a cover or in a shadowy, dim lit cave.

 

And there's your problem right there: You have redefined "appears" as it applies to the context of comic books. Marvel Age IS NOT a "comic book" in the traditional sense. YES, it is in comic book form, and YES, it sometimes contains comic book elements, but it is NOT a comic book like Avengers #237 is a comic book. It is a promotional magazine, highlighting and showcasing the upcoming publications of Marvel Comics. Same with Marvel Requirer, and all the rest.

 

You want to redefine the word "appears" as to mean "any time the character shows up anywhere." And that's not correct, in the context of comic books.

 

While I understand the frustrations concerning this by some of you older dealers ( I say dealers because I find it hard to believe that many of you in a thread like this are simply collectors ) time makes corrections and in this case it's long overdue.

 

I'm not a dealer. I am also not "simply a collector." And what is "older"? Is one's ability to learn and reason determined by age? Can one who is 85 agree with you? Can one who is 19 disagree? Age has nothing to do with this.

 

And the "frustration" has to do with people coming along and trying to redefine terms according to THEIR perceptions, rather than learning and accepting what already is perfectly workable.

 

We don't need a revolution every generation.

 

I do understand that some of you hate the idea of a magazine as a first ( see Rocket Raccoon )

 

Who has said this? And why must you couch things in emotionally laden terms like "hate"? This isn't about "hate" or "love", it's about what is reasonable.

 

or an insert ( see Preacher Preview )

 

It's not an original story, so no, it's not the first appearance.

 

or a paperback ( see The Empire Strikes Back PB, first Bobba Fett )

 

There's nothing wrong with people liking a paperback novel as a first appearance. But this is a comic board, not a book board. The discussion is within the context of comic books, that is, sequential art.

 

but they are firsts

 

No, they are always qualified firsts. Always. That's why Hulk #271, BA #12 and Star Wars #42 have to have asterisks, and rightly so:: that is, the first comic book appearances of these characters, which is an acknowledgement that these characters appeared elsewhere in story contexts. Those are the exceptions, and they are perfectly valid exceptions.

 

even if the majority of collectors and the marketplace wish something else to be true or cannot let go of long standing incorrect traditions.

 

No, they are "firsts" because *you* have decided they are "firsts", and are trying to convince the marketplace that *your* opinion, rather than tradition, history, and creator/publisher intent, is what should be.

 

"Incorrect traditions"...? According to who...?

 

Yes, for decades and decades, the marketplace has regarded Detective Comics #27 as the real, genuine, honest-to-God first appearance of Batman, despite the fact that he appeared PRIOR TO Detective Comics #27 in at least two house ads. According to you, that is an "incorrect tradition."

 

That I even need to qualify the first appearance of Batman as "the real, genuine, honest-to-God first appearance" demonstrates how far down the rabbit hole this discussion is.

 

If you want to say that Hulk 271 is RR's first comic appearance then you would be correct. If you want to say that Darkhawk #1 is his third appearance, third cover and first story then you would be correct.

 

No, you would be wrong, and worse, you would confuse others into thinking that previews and other promotional material "counts" as appearances, when they have never done so, and shouldn't do so.

 

"First story appearance"...doesn't have much ring to it, in a storytelling medium, does it?

 

The fact is a first appearance does not need to be valuable.

 

No disagreement there, except that what YOU mean by "first appearance" and what the market, as a whole, means, are completely different things.

 

As a collector I expect the hobby i love to be factually accurate.

 

No, you expect the hobby to cater to your interpretations, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, unless your interpretations run counter to everything that has gone before you.

 

If the facts are reflected in value then great but the market is based on money not truth so it's not a requirement.

 

The market is based on perception. That said, perception should, as much as possible, be based on fact, not opinion.

 

While I appreciate the time you take to respond I have much to much sour diesel to smoke gardening to do to reply to all your thought out, albeit erroneous responses. I will say this though:

 

I DO NOT EXPECT THE HOBBY TO CATER TO MY INTERPRETATIONS. I expect the hobby to correct itself and for all the great minds ( you included! ) who spend so much time arguing to come together and eliminate the gray areas concerning the definition of a first appearance. Trust me sir, it would benefit both those who collect, those who sell and and all those who enjoy a bit of both. ( ummm yes that's a GOTG film reference. )

Edited February 2, 2015 by MrWeen

[the blob]

Usually, in the long run, the market susses out the right book. We'll see how X-Men 266/Ann 14 plays out.

 

It's been 25 years. I don't think it's going to change any time soon.

 

Of course, I would LOVE to have Annual #14 be more sought after...I've got probably 40 copies. Maybe 3 copies left of #266.

 

 

Ditto (well, not 40, but 5-7, having sold 4 or 5 in the last 2 years)

 

Many dealers didn't realize or care what it was for a long time and it wound up in cheapie boxes. frankly, i'm not even sure i knew what it was either, but i bought it because i like the adams cover. those days are probably over.

[MrWeen]

Because there is money involved we must assume that people will push their own agendas to make more money.

 

Should I regard all of your posts in that light, too?

 

Have we become so cynical that we must assume that everybody always has an agenda, all the time?

 

 

Yes yes. I have an agenda too, creating a universally accepted definition of first appearance.

Edited February 2, 2015 by MrWeen

[RockMyAmadeus]

If Gambit had been on the cover, even in the background, it would be no question.

 

But he's definitely there, in the story, multiple panels.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Because there is money involved we must assume that people will push their own agendas to make more money.

 

Should I regard all of your posts in that light, too?

 

Have we become so cynical that we must assume that everybody always has an agenda, all the time?

 

 

Yes Yes. i have an agenda too, creating a universally accepted definition of first appearance.

 

There already is one.

 

First appearance: the first time a character appears in a comic book story. Done.

[MrWeen]

Because there is money involved we must assume that people will push their own agendas to make more money.

 

Should I regard all of your posts in that light, too?

 

Have we become so cynical that we must assume that everybody always has an agenda, all the time?

 

 

Yes Yes. i have an agenda too, creating a universally accepted definition of first appearance.

 

There already is one.

 

First appearance: the first time a character appears in a comic book story. appears in a publication Done.

 

Fixed it for ya (thumbs u

[MrWeen]

If Gambit had been on the cover, even in the background, it would be no question.

 

But he's definitely there, in the story, multiple panels.

 

Add X-Factor 24 to this list.

[slym2none]

 

 

 

-slym

[Aweandlorder]

Usually, in the long run, the market susses out the right book. We'll see how X-Men 266/Ann 14 plays out.

 

It's been 25 years. I don't think it's going to change any time soon.

 

Of course, I would LOVE to have Annual #14 be more sought after...I've got probably 40 copies. Maybe 3 copies left of #266.

 

 

Ditto (well, not 40, but 5-7, having sold 4 or 5 in the last 2 years)

 

Many dealers didn't realize or care what it was for a long time and it wound up in cheapie boxes. frankly, i'm not even sure i knew what it was either, but i bought it because i like the adams cover. those days are probably over.

 

Those days anything AAdams touched were golden. And rightfully so!

[revat]

If Gambit had been on the cover, even in the background, it would be no question.

 

But he's definitely there, in the story, multiple panels.

 

Add X-Factor 24 to this list.

 

seriously, just read x factor 23 again last night, and archangel is in more than one panel, he does stuff, and he talks. You see most if not all of his body. I think it the most aggressive use of the "If the 1st app has him on one page only and the second app has him in the story and the cover then its the real 1st appearance rule."

[slym2none]

If Gambit had been on the cover, even in the background, it would be no question.

 

But he's definitely there, in the story, multiple panels.

 

UXM Annual 14 is one of the few that I will fight against. It was released by the distributors as an accident too early, and the story in Annual 14 even takes place after UXM 266.

 

I think the market got that one right, IOW. But, that's my opinion.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[RockMyAmadeus]

Because there is money involved we must assume that people will push their own agendas to make more money.

 

Should I regard all of your posts in that light, too?

 

Have we become so cynical that we must assume that everybody always has an agenda, all the time?

 

 

Yes Yes. i have an agenda too, creating a universally accepted definition of first appearance.

 

There already is one.

 

First appearance: the first time a character appears in a comic book story. appears in a publication Done.

 

Fixed it for ya (thumbs u

 

And what is a "publication"...?

 

[slym2none]

If Gambit had been on the cover, even in the background, it would be no question.

 

But he's definitely there, in the story, multiple panels.

 

Add X-Factor 24 to this list.

 

seriously, just read x factor 23 again last night, and archangel is in more than one panel, he does stuff, and he talks. You see most if not all of his body. I think it the most aggressive use of the "If the 1st app has him on one page only and the second app has him in the story and the cover then its the real 1st appearance rule."

 

But, but... it's just a cameo! That doesn't count!!!

 

::

 

 

 

-slym ( )

[HighStakesComics]

[RockMyAmadeus]

If Gambit had been on the cover, even in the background, it would be no question.

 

But he's definitely there, in the story, multiple panels.

 

UXM Annual 14 is one of the few that I will fight against. It was released by the distributors as an accident too early, and the story in Annual 14 even takes place after UXM 266.

 

I think the market got that one right, IOW. But, that's my opinion.

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

Do you have any proof of the "released by the distributors as an accident"?

 

I'm not suggesting it's not true, but you are the only one I have heard this from, and I bought all of these books brand new (DOFP, included.)