Copper's Heating/Selling Well on Ebay 33 33

[FlyingDonut]

So what about something like Deadworld 10 with the full-page pinup of The Crow on the back cover? How do you guys weigh-in on that as the first appearance?

 

PS - I picked two out of a 50 cent box yesterday at Heroes MiniCon!

 

Apparently it has to be an in story appearance to count as a true first appearance. Pin ups and ads don't count. Previews don't count.

 

That being said, it probably still has value, if the right collectors are aware of it.

 

So what if the preview itself is a story? I'm talking DCP #26 and New Teen Titans #16. And if so, would Walking Dead 127 Image Expo jan 2014 fall into the same category? Are these the 1st apps of the New Teen Titans, Captain Carrot and Outcast? I apologize for bringing a modern into the discussion but it's a pretty good example.

 

FTFY

 

Agents 6?

[Aweandlorder]

So what about something like Deadworld 10 with the full-page pinup of The Crow on the back cover? How do you guys weigh-in on that as the first appearance?

 

PS - I picked two out of a 50 cent box yesterday at Heroes MiniCon!

 

Apparently it has to be an in story appearance to count as a true first appearance. Pin ups and ads don't count. Previews don't count.

 

That being said, it probably still has value, if the right collectors are aware of it.

 

So what if the preview itself is a story? I'm talking DCP #26 and New Teen Titans #16. And if so, would Walking Dead 127 Image Expo jan 2014 fall into the same category? Are these the 1st apps of the New Teen Titans, Captain Carrot and Outcast? I apologize for bringing a modern into the discussion but it's a pretty good example.

 

FTFY

 

Agents 6?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

So what about something like Deadworld 10 with the full-page pinup of The Crow on the back cover? How do you guys weigh-in on that as the first appearance?

 

PS - I picked two out of a 50 cent box yesterday at Heroes MiniCon!

 

Apparently it has to be an in story appearance to count as a true first appearance. Pin ups and ads don't count. Previews don't count.

 

That is correct. One need only consider the twin principles of tradition and publisher/creator intent to confirm that. Think of what "first appearance" means in the context of sequential art. Comic books are a storytelling artform. They are not static, they are dynamic. They do something. They tell a story.

 

Would anyone cite the first appearance of Luke Skywalker as a trailer? Or publicity stills? Or storyboards? These are all "first appearances" of a sort, and they certainly have a historical appeal to devoted collectors...but they are not THE first appearance, as defined by tradition and creator intent. The average person would not say "the first appearance of Luke Skywalker is in storyboard F-18." They would say "Star Wars (and some would say "A New Hope.)

 

And that is the right answer.

 

How about the first appearance of Frodo Baggins? Would it be in the manuscript that Tolkien typed? Or sketches he drew? No, the first appearance of Frodo Baggins is Chapter 1 of the Fellowship of the Ring.

 

And this is why so many people have such a problem with Gobbledygook #1 and #2 being called "the first appearances" of the Turtles. They're not, and never have been, but some people, wanting to cash in, tried to make that claim, which is rejected by many, if not most, Turtles fans.

 

That being said, it probably still has value, if the right collectors are aware of it.

 

That is correct.

 

Deadworld #10 is still quite nifty...it is a complete (back) cover, and it's really cool...but "everyone knows" that Caliber Presents is the actual first appearance of the Crow, because that is when he appears in the context of a story...which is what the entire artform is about, and the very reason why "first appearances" mean so much in the first place...because people relate to these drawings because of their stories.

[RockMyAmadeus]

For some real world consideration:

 

Take a pretty girl, and post a picture of her on the internet. Ok, yay, she's pretty. There are literally millions more just like her.

 

But take a pretty girl and give her a story that people connect with, relate to....and now you have a superstar, a Britney Spears, a Miley Cyrus, a Kim Kardashian, a Beyoncé, a Rihanna...even if it's someone you love to hate...they still have a story, and that is why they connect with people, far, far beyond their looks, or even their talent and abilities (unless those talents and abilities are used to craft the story.)

 

Same way with Cable, Black Cat, Crow, et al. Same thing.

 

It's all about the story.

[RockMyAmadeus]

So what about something like Deadworld 10 with the full-page pinup of The Crow on the back cover? How do you guys weigh-in on that as the first appearance?

 

PS - I picked two out of a 50 cent box yesterday at Heroes MiniCon!

 

Apparently it has to be an in story appearance to count as a true first appearance. Pin ups and ads don't count. Previews don't count.

 

That being said, it probably still has value, if the right collectors are aware of it.

 

So what if the preview itself is a story? I'm talking DCP #26 and New Teen Titans #16. And if so, would Walking Dead 127 Image Expo jan 2014 fall into the same category? Are these the 1st apps of the New Teen Titans, Captain Carrot and Outcast? I apologize for bringing a modern into the discussion but it's a pretty good example.

 

FTFY

 

Agents 6?

 

Here's where it gets murky, but it needn't be. If it's original material, a la DCP #26, (among many, many others that DC did throughout the 80's), that isn't then printed elsewhere, it's the first appearance. It is, after all, in the context of a story. Even though DC calls it a "preview", it's not actually a preview...it's really "New Teen Titans #0."

 

If it's just a few pages from a book that is officially intended to be printed in another book...a la Absolute Vertigo #1 and, I believe, the WD previews of Agents #6 and Capes #1, then it's not the first appearance...it's just a preview of the actual first appearance. It's not original material, it's just the few pages from the "real issue" printed for advertising purposes.

 

 

[HighStakesComics]

I can buy into that. Thank you.

[Silverdream]

So what about something like Deadworld 10 with the full-page pinup of The Crow on the back cover? How do you guys weigh-in on that as the first appearance?

 

PS - I picked two out of a 50 cent box yesterday at Heroes MiniCon!

 

Apparently it has to be an in story appearance to count as a true first appearance. Pin ups and ads don't count. Previews don't count.

 

That being said, it probably still has value, if the right collectors are aware of it.

 

So what if the preview itself is a story? I'm talking DCP #26 and New Teen Titans #16. And if so, would Walking Dead 127 Image Expo jan 2014 fall into the same category? Are these the 1st apps of the New Teen Titans, Captain Carrot and Outcast? I apologize for bringing a modern into the discussion but it's a pretty good example.

 

FTFY

 

Agents 6?

 

Here's where it gets murky, but it needn't be. If it's original material, a la DCP #26, (among many, many others that DC did throughout the 80's), that isn't then printed elsewhere, it's the first appearance. It is, after all, in the context of a story. Even though DC calls it a "preview", it's not actually a preview...it's really "New Teen Titans #0."

 

If it's just a few pages from a book that is officially intended to be printed in another book...a la Absolute Vertigo #1 and, I believe, the WD previews of Agents #6 and Capes #1, then it's not the first appearance...it's just a preview of the actual first appearance. It's not original material, it's just the few pages from the "real issue" printed for advertising purposes.

 

 

100% agree.

 

[MrWeen]

Marvel Age is a preview book.

 

Let me say that again: Marvel Age is a preview book.

 

It is not a traditional comic book (with exceptions) that tells a story in words and pictures. It is a preview book. It was designed to showcase upcoming Marvel publications, so that people would be interested in them and buy them.

 

Therefore, unless it contains original material that is not reprinted elsewhere (and covers don't count), it does not contain any "first appearances" or "cameo appearances" or anything of that sort, and shouldn't be marketed as if it does.

 

That doesn't mean it's not collectable...sure it is...but there are no "this is really the first appearance of Character X!"

 

Context is all-important.

 

they absoutlely are first appearances. i do not see how that is or will ever be disputable.

[MrWeen]

 

Previews/Marvel Age are not the first appearance of anything. This is silly.

 

It's silly to me as well, but paying a premium for a newsstand copy of a comic or a Whitman logo DC is also equally silly. However, collector preferences do and will change from time to time.

 

Nothing wrong with paying a premium for it...just the marketing of it as "first appearance!" with the intent to deceive, or at least confuse, prospective buyers, and ignoring historical context for money.

 

the definition of first appearance says nothing about historical context. personally i think it's an oversight by collectors in this market and has been for years and many of you continue to to deny that there's a problem. preacher first appeared in a previews insert and it is widly accepted

as a first but full color previews of saga an others are not first appearances that appear in the same diamond pubpication? if you dont see the problem with that then your own perspnal agenda might just be getting in the way. the only way to determine a first appearance is to say the first time the character appears in print is a first. it may not be a meaningful appearance but it should be considered a first none the less. If we all simply followed this rule there would be no room for discussion.

[Silverdream]

If only Marvel Age had a picture of NM 98 before it came out!

Has anyone listed ASM 359 as the "1st Marvel published picture of Carnage" yet? Insanity / stupidity being what it is

 

I got a Large stack of them just waiting for the price adjustment.

 

I'm a fan of ASM #359.

I can only see that one going up.

 

It's funny you are joking about the ad picture for #361 on the letter pages of # 359. Its pretty cool, and one could argue it's importance and collectability for the issue, but that doesn't make it a first appearance, as has been talked about here.

 

However.

 

ASM # 359 IS in fact, the first appearance of Carnage.

 

In comic terms, its a cameo, but his first " in story" appearance is on Page 16 of Amazing Spider-man # 359. He isn't named, and his full costume is not shown, but we see Kasady using the words " we" speaking of himself and the alien symbiote. Then we see him attack a guard with the red alien symbiote that is carnage. At that moment Kasady is no longer just Kasady, He has merged with the alien and has become Carnage.

 

The next issue, # 360 we see him, in full, naming himself as Carnage. Its a single page splash, and still considered by most as a cameo.

 

ASM 361 will always be the top book. It's a Cover thing, and full appearance thing. It would be a mistake to dismiss 359 or 360 in my mind, however.

[Aweandlorder]

For some real world consideration:

 

Take a pretty girl, and post a picture of her on the internet. Ok, yay, she's pretty. There are literally millions more just like her.

 

But take a pretty girl and give her a story that people connect with, relate to....and now you have a superstar, a Britney Spears, a Miley Cyrus, a Kim Kardashian, a Beyoncé, a Rihanna...even if it's someone you love to hate...they still have a story, and that is why they connect with people, far, far beyond their looks, or even their talent and abilities (unless those talents and abilities are used to craft the story.)

 

Same way with Cable, Black Cat, Crow, et al. Same thing.

 

It's all about the story.

 

Wait, what?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Marvel Age is a preview book.

 

Let me say that again: Marvel Age is a preview book.

 

It is not a traditional comic book (with exceptions) that tells a story in words and pictures. It is a preview book. It was designed to showcase upcoming Marvel publications, so that people would be interested in them and buy them.

 

Therefore, unless it contains original material that is not reprinted elsewhere (and covers don't count), it does not contain any "first appearances" or "cameo appearances" or anything of that sort, and shouldn't be marketed as if it does.

 

That doesn't mean it's not collectable...sure it is...but there are no "this is really the first appearance of Character X!"

 

Context is all-important.

 

they absoutlely are first appearances. i do not see how that is or will ever be disputable.

 

Because your definition of "first appearance" is simply not in concert with traditional and historical understanding of that term, or creator intent.

 

That's how.

 

If you change the meanings of terms, you're not going to find much common ground.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Previews/Marvel Age are not the first appearance of anything. This is silly.

 

It's silly to me as well, but paying a premium for a newsstand copy of a comic or a Whitman logo DC is also equally silly. However, collector preferences do and will change from time to time.

 

Nothing wrong with paying a premium for it...just the marketing of it as "first appearance!" with the intent to deceive, or at least confuse, prospective buyers, and ignoring historical context for money.

 

the definition of first appearance says nothing about historical context.

 

You would be incorrect.

 

The first appearance of Batman is Detective Comics #27. It is not Action Comics #12, unless you redefine the historical understanding of the term "first appearance", which you are trying to do.

 

personally i think it's an oversight by collectors in this market and has been for years and many of you continue to to deny that there's a problem. preacher first appeared in a previews insert and it is widly accepted

as a first but full color previews of saga an others are not first appearances that appear in the same diamond pubpication?

 

The first appearance of Preacher was Preacher #1. Both the preview and Absolute Vertigo #1 only contained some pages from that first issue. It is a faulty assumption to say that everyone thinks the first appearance of Preacher is in the preview. It is not.

 

if you dont see the problem with that then your own perspnal agenda might just be getting in the way.

 

Orrrr....the personal agendas of those who want to redefine long-established terms to make money are the ones getting in the way...?

 

the only way to determine a first appearance is to say the first time the character appears in print is a first.

 

So, the first time Luke Skywalker appeared in a trailer, that was the "first appearance of Luke Skywalker"...?

 

it may not be a meaningful appearance but it should be considered a first none the less. If we all simply followed this rule there would be no room for discussion.

 

Except...clearly...there is. These are comic books, not posters, photographs, paintings, ads, or other forms of "print." The reason these characters matter is because of their stories.

 

When you need to qualify, as you do, what the appearance is..."this is the first printed appearance" or this is the "first time the character appears in print", then you're already making it unnecessarily complex.

 

The first appearance of Batman is NOT Action Comics #12.

 

[Silverdream]

[FlyingDonut]

Agents 6?

[FlyingDonut]

Actually, this is a better example. This IS the first appearance of Gambit. The marketplace discounts it, but it is.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Actually, this is a better example. This IS the first appearance of Gambit. The marketplace discounts it, but it is.

 

Yes.

 

But what about Agents #6? I thought I answered that.

[FlyingDonut]

Actually, this is a better example. This IS the first appearance of Gambit. The marketplace discounts it, but it is.

 

Yes.

 

But what about Agents #6? I thought I answered that.

 

I would argue that Agents 6 should be a much bigger book than it is - it is clearly the first appearance of Rick Grimes, as a "preview", and it says in the book "Continued in Walking Dead 1", which implies that the Agents 6 is the first part of the story. Of course, I'm only saying this because I can get about 50 of them, but still.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Plus, it's got killer Art Adams art.

[Silverdream]

Actually, this is a better example. This IS the first appearance of Gambit. The marketplace discounts it, but it is.

 

Yes.

 

But what about Agents #6? I thought I answered that.

 

 

I would argue that Agents 6 should be a much bigger book than it is - it is clearly the first appearance of Rick Grimes, as a "preview", and it says in the book "Continued in Walking Dead 1", which implies that the Agents 6 is the first part of the story. Of course, I'm only saying this because I can get about 50 of them, but still.

 

I think agents # 6 is undervalued. Is it a first appearance? No. It's a preview. The story is continued in WD # 1... on Page # 7. If the story in Agents 6 or Capes for that matter was a " lead-in" to # 1 it would be different. It's not however, its just the first few pages of #1 used to push sales. It's an Ad.

 

With such a huge following for Walking dead, being a WD# 1 preview, I don't understand why its not a $100 book. With all the money going around in comics these days, I see $100 being wasted all over the place. I wouldn't consider Agents 6 or Capes a bad purchase.