Flippers- are they bad for the hobby?

[Khazano]

Hey Roy

 

Thanks for that! Surprised I've never seen that list of his before.

 

Yeah I was hoping for a nice detailed sketch of Ultimate Spider-Man in my book since I'm a insanely massive fan of that series. BUT if a freebie sketch is the best I can get that's what ill aim for next time!

 

Mike

[Cbone3-migration]

I know a lot of athletes have taken to personalizing autographs or they won't sign for free. I'm surprised that artists don't do that. If someone is a fan and wants it for their collection, surely they wouldn't mind it being personalized...

[Pete Marino]

Lieing to someone to get something for free, cheaper, or even at all is bad for humainty. I didn't think that was what this discussion was about though.

 

I thought it was about buying stuff from a retailer and flipping it (spencer's annual sale I believe started this line of thought)

 

Being a phallus is not the same as being a flipper (most of the time)

[porky]

Well, the question was whether Flippers are bad for the hobby, so.... if artists stop sketching because of instances of "flipping" then surely it's bad for the hobby?

 

Whether they're missing the big picture or not doesn't appear to be relevant if the end result is that they stop sketching

 

when i sent some tick books to get signed by edlund, i asked for the 2 i requested sketches on to be personalized because i have no plans to sell them and also to let him know i wasn't a flipper. well he didn't personalize, so they'll sell better... but i still don't think i ever will.

[heartened]

Well, the question was whether Flippers are bad for the hobby, so.... if artists stop sketching because of instances of "flipping" then surely it's bad for the hobby?

 

Whether they're missing the big picture or not doesn't appear to be relevant if the end result is that they stop sketching

 

 

It's all good. Welcome to capitalism. People shouldn't care what happens to art when it leaves their hands. Buyer beware. Seller beware. And, as for artists who refuse to sketch anymore because of flipping, I think they're missing the big picture. They should be happy they are so popular, and leave it at that.

 

Hey Royd,

 

Not sure I agree with that, but not worth debating. If it bothers an artist so much then it's probably best s/he takes himself out of the game. But in the end, they themselves (and their true fans) suffer even greater, which is why they all eventually start sketching again. And the cycle begins anew.

 

[malvin]

Well, the question was whether Flippers are bad for the hobby, so.... if artists stop sketching because of instances of "flipping" then surely it's bad for the hobby?

 

Whether they're missing the big picture or not doesn't appear to be relevant if the end result is that they stop sketching

 

Originally I wasn't going to contribute anymore to this thread. The original poster clearly wants to see posts that reinforce his opinion rather than dissenting ones. This thread is not original, and has been debated endlessly and I have yet to see a response here that can be considered productive and new.

 

However, Royd's post I think is worth responding to.

 

Is it good for the hobby for artists to do free sketches? Is it good for the artists to give away money because someone declares that they are a fan? That is essentially what they were doing.

 

Before AH! changed his rules and stopped sketching altogether, getting an AH! sketch was basically getting ~$500 to ~$2,000. Sure, you can argue that you will keep it forever, but unless it gets buried with you, your heirs will eventually sell it and that's money to them.

 

People were lining up at cons at 3AM or 4AM to get that chance. Is it good for the hobby for people to do that? Potentially getting mugged with thousands of dollars in cash lining up outside at those hours?

 

Of course to identify the "true fan" vs others, rules were developed, some of which were getting ridiculous. "Fans" were snitching on each other to identify non-fans. Which is clearly a flawed process. I wonder how many people were denied sketches because other people declared that they were non-fans. I am sure all the snitches were pure of heart and did not snitch out others because they wanted a sketch for themselves.

 

Are all those practices above good for the hobby? That's what happened because "fans" want free sketches.

 

I don't think free sketches are good for the hobby. Subverting the free market always distort things and creates unintended consequences. Fans do not deserve a sketch just because they are a big fan. If they are a big fan with no budget, stick to buying comic books or prints. If they are a big fan with bigger budgets, buy a cover. If some artists no longer sketch, buy a print or a published page and stop complaining about it.

 

Malvin

 

[Nexus]

To me, flipping is flipping, whether it's a con sketch or a published page. We all know it when we see it.

 

And it's only bad for the hobby when it's the other guy doing it:P

[heartened]

To me, flipping is flipping, whether it's a con sketch or a published page. We all know it when we see it.

 

And it's only bad for the hobby when it's the other guy doing it:P

 

I think you just hit the nail on the head.

 

[Cbone3-migration]

Being a phallus is not the same as being a flipper (most of the time)

 

! Pete, you're right that this thread didn't start that way, but it's an interesting conversation about sketches.

[devilsrain]

I think it was at Boston 2 years ago. My friend (who was with me) wanted a sketch from Cho & wouldnt approach him because he was convinced he wouldnt do it. SO I approached Frank at the show early on. Asked for a sketch and he flat out refused. I'll go ahead and assume he thought I was a flipper. I reminded him he was an artist at a comic book convention where no one was at his table. I then proceeded to walk up my offers. 200, 300, 400. He wouldnt budge.

 

Im an artist myself and this makes no sense to me. If you are an artist and you think someone is a flipper, lets say EVERYONE is a flipper then why not price the sketch accordingly.

 

Its already been mentioned that the buying and selling of art is how the art market works. That being said, I can see how it would be annoying to have someone come up to you claim hes a fan and how his son needs a Wonder Woman sketch, only to see it on EBay the next day selling for 3k. Of course the artist now knows how much his art is worth and can price things accordingly. Again it makes no sense to say screw it Im not doing anymore sketches because im a big cry baby. Up your prices and be thankful you have that kind of fan base. Does that hurt the hobby? I dont know, I guess it prices some people out of certain things but thats life.

[Meeley Man]

Again it makes no sense to say screw it Im not doing anymore sketches because im a big cry baby.

 

Maybe to some artists, who like to show appreciation to the real fans, who've supported them over the years and allowed them to make a living doing something they love, there's a more important principle at stake, than merely that of avarice. I don't think, if that is the case for them, it makes them a "cry baby" to not do sketches. No one likes to be used/abused, nor have tokens of good will tarnished by those who don't have a true appreciation for them.

[Royd]

Understood and agreed! Just re-read my post, apologies if I sounded "combative", not my intent Best,

 

Royd

 

PS - Happy New Year to all!

 

 

Well, the question was whether Flippers are bad for the hobby, so.... if artists stop sketching because of instances of "flipping" then surely it's bad for the hobby?

 

Whether they're missing the big picture or not doesn't appear to be relevant if the end result is that they stop sketching

 

 

It's all good. Welcome to capitalism. People shouldn't care what happens to art when it leaves their hands. Buyer beware. Seller beware. And, as for artists who refuse to sketch anymore because of flipping, I think they're missing the big picture. They should be happy they are so popular, and leave it at that.

 

Hey Royd,

 

Not sure I agree with that, but not worth debating. If it bothers an artist so much then it's probably best s/he takes himself out of the game. But in the end, they themselves (and their true fans) suffer even greater, which is why they all eventually start sketching again. And the cycle begins anew.

[Dave Aikins]

I think that no matter what the artist decides to do at a convention- free sketches, under-priced sketches, high-priced sketches, etc... they can't get caught up in the guessing game of what the buyer's agenda is. It's not worth the aggravation to the artist or the collector. An artist needs to set their policy and not break it. No deals, no special last minute sketches even though their list is full...etc etc etc. Just do what you think is comfy for you and don't look back. If you think you're getting taken advantage of, then change your game plan until you're happy. If that means no sketches at all, great for you. For some artists, it means no conventions at all.

 

You just can't play the game of "are you really a true fan"? Even the people like Comic Monster- that guy buys plenty from artists, and guess what- sometimes they're happy to have a pocket full of cash. He goes home and puts everything on ebay and the artist goes home with money. Now, we all get annoyed when a dealer buys a batch of stuff right before you get your chance, but that's life. It could've just as easily been a non-dealer buying everything right before you.

 

If there is any good to flippers, it's that they give the artists an immediate appraisal of their work. Sold at a convention for $100 and a week later on ebay for $300? Good to know! Thanks flipper! That might off collectors as it might lead to higher prices, but that's great for the artist. If an item consistently sells for less on ebay, well...

The flippers also allow folks that can't get to a convention (or don't have friends going) a chance to get something from an artist that they might not be able to get directly- or don't want to risk getting directly from an artist.

They also allow a buyer to see a sketch before buying, instead of rolling the dice themselves.

 

One of the other sides to this is that many collectors and dealers and flippers are all very smart as to how to work conventions. They know how to get into the show before it starts (which isn't that hard) they know how to book things in advance, they know how to work it & network. However, flippers/dealers that off too many of the common collectors...well they get a reputation after a while, and it spreads quickly. It's not a huge community of collectors out there. There is some regional aspects to it, but after going to shows for a while- most of the more social collectors start to know each other. So, the professional flipper has to walk a line of getting art & prints & signatures from an artist without off the collectors or the artists. That can be hard to do..

I'm not sure it's worth the trouble.

[devilsrain]

Again it makes no sense to say screw it Im not doing anymore sketches because im a big cry baby.

 

Maybe to some artists, who like to show appreciation to the real fans, who've supported them over the years and allowed them to make a living doing something they love, there's a more important principle at stake, than merely that of avarice. I don't think, if that is the case for them, it makes them a "cry baby" to not do sketches. No one likes to be used/abused, nor have tokens of good will tarnished by those who don't have a true appreciation for them.

 

Yea well there was some crying going on with the Hughes incident. I agree with you that most artists appreciate the fans and want to show appreciation by not ripping them off. BUT if you are going to cry about the flippers you have to accept that any one of your "fans" could be one. Unless you knew them personally you cant know for sure.

[heartened]

Again it makes no sense to say screw it Im not doing anymore sketches because im a big cry baby.

 

Maybe to some artists, who like to show appreciation to the real fans, who've supported them over the years and allowed them to make a living doing something they love, there's a more important principle at stake, than merely that of avarice. I don't think, if that is the case for them, it makes them a "cry baby" to not do sketches. No one likes to be used/abused, nor have tokens of good will tarnished by those who don't have a true appreciation for them.

 

Let's be clear. Every single sketch these artists draw ends up with a fan who appreciates and adores it. So, it's not about it not reaching fans. Just because it's not the supposed fan standing in front of your table is irrelevant. As usual it's not about fans, it's about money.

 

The real problem is that artists feel caught between raising their price so that flipping can't occur or keeping price reasonable (or free) to accommodate the fan without means. But they forget a fan is a fan whether rich or poor. They each should figure out what's important to them, pick a price to charge, stick to it and not look back. Looking forward is healthier.

 

[Cbone3-migration]

The more I've read, the more I realize flipping probably doesn't matter. If the artist/dealer was happy with the price they received, who cares about what happens with the piece later. If the piece is overpriced when filpped, it probably won't impact the market since price will settle around what people are willing to pay. Flipping only really hurts when a piece you really want is inflated or when artists change their sketching policies because of it. Thanks, guys.

[heartened]

Understood and agreed! Just re-read my post, apologies if I sounded "combative", not my intent Best,

 

Royd

 

PS - Happy New Year to all!

 

 

Well, the question was whether Flippers are bad for the hobby, so.... if artists stop sketching because of instances of "flipping" then surely it's bad for the hobby?

 

Whether they're missing the big picture or not doesn't appear to be relevant if the end result is that they stop sketching

 

 

It's all good. Welcome to capitalism. People shouldn't care what happens to art when it leaves their hands. Buyer beware. Seller beware. And, as for artists who refuse to sketch anymore because of flipping, I think they're missing the big picture. They should be happy they are so popular, and leave it at that.

 

Hey Royd,

 

Not sure I agree with that, but not worth debating. If it bothers an artist so much then it's probably best s/he takes himself out of the game. But in the end, they themselves (and their true fans) suffer even greater, which is why they all eventually start sketching again. And the cycle begins anew.

 

I wasn't upset Royd! And I knew you weren't either

 

[CollectingFool]

A non-artist can not appreciate how it feels to be worked over and lied to 30 times a day at every convention. Actually most artists can't as few are that popular. "Yes, I love your work, I'm a big fan, can you please do "X" for me?". Regardless of how much they charge some artists want to feel a connection with their fans and it's the only reason they do conventions. Getting lied to even while being paid is still wearing on the nerves.

 

Second point, a lot of people feel as if they are entitled to a sketch. Bugger off! If an artist doesn't want to do a sketch for you he has no obligation to do it and to be insulted by that shows at the minimum a sense of entitlement and complete lack of empathy.

 

Finally for those who think flippers help the market on sketches, take a good look at what has happened to the Hughes and Cho market. While the sketches kept coming on a regular basis, the prices increased with every auction. Once they stopped sketching at cons (creating that personal connection with the fans and keeping the good will going) the after market on sketches stagnated and dropped for anything other than a stellar piece. In those cases all the flippers did was cause bad feelings and kill the market.

 

 

[heartened]

A non-artist can not appreciate how it feels to be worked over and lied to 30 times a day at every convention. Actually most artists can't as few are that popular. "Yes, I love your work, I'm a big fan, can you please do "X" for me?". Regardless of how much they charge some artists want to feel a connection with their fans and it's the only reason they do conventions. Getting lied to even while being paid is still wearing on the nerves.

 

Second point, a lot of people feel as if they are entitled to a sketch. Bugger off! If an artist doesn't want to do a sketch for you he has no obligation to do it and to be insulted by that shows at the minimum a sense of entitlement and complete lack of empathy.

 

Finally for those who think flippers help the market on sketches, take a good look at what has happened to the Hughes and Cho market. While the sketches kept coming on a regular basis, the prices increased with every auction. Once they stopped sketching at cons (creating that personal connection with the fans and keeping the good will going) the after market on sketches stagnated and dropped for anything other than a stellar piece. In those cases all the flippers did was cause bad feelings and kill the market.

 

 

Ah Ruben, don't confuse hobby with market. I'm still talking about what's asked in the thread heading. I could care less about the market. Stopping sketching kills the hobby for sure, as there is no production to be admired. What it does to a market is far more complicated and less predictable. But of course I'll take your word on the market aspect, since I'm an outsider looking in on the world of sketches. That being said, I've been watching for a long time.

 

 

[Meeley Man]

A non-artist can not appreciate how it feels to be worked over and lied to 30 times a day at every convention. Actually most artists can't as few are that popular. "Yes, I love your work, I'm a big fan, can you please do "X" for me?". Regardless of how much they charge some artists want to feel a connection with their fans and it's the only reason they do conventions. Getting lied to even while being paid is still wearing on the nerves.

 

Second point, a lot of people feel as if they are entitled to a sketch. Bugger off! If an artist doesn't want to do a sketch for you he has no obligation to do it and to be insulted by that shows at the minimum a sense of entitlement and complete lack of empathy.

 

I completely agree with both of these very cogent points.