Mile High Comics, Superworld and Comic World

[Ogami]

Richard called me back and Roy didn't call me.

 

That's textbook "win/win".

 

[seanfingh]

[VintageComics]

Richard called me back and Roy didn't call me.

 

That's textbook "win/win".

 

 

I spent the day in the shower. We've been without a shower for nearly 3 weeks.

 

[seanfingh]

[RockMyAmadeus]

[Ogami]

[MrBedrock]

Richard called me back and Roy didn't call me.

 

That's textbook "win/win".

 

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Richard called me back and Roy didn't call me.

 

That's textbook "win/win".

 

 

I spent the day in the shower. We've been without a shower for nearly 3 weeks.

 

 

 

[Ogami]

Richard called me back and Roy didn't call me.

 

That's textbook "win/win".

 

 

 

I'm glad I made you laugh with the line, "not at that price."

[4GEMWORKS]

I don't see any lashing or attack.

 

4GEMWORKS is what I would typically call a "hard marker" if he was a teacher marking student's papers. He has exceedingly high standards and is tough on dealers when it comes to rating them, which is fine, but it is possible for someone to have unreasonably high standards that are out of touch with the reality of the situation.

 

For example, I remember last year debating with 4GEMWORKS because he posted his experience with Al Stoltz last year in a thread about dishonest dealers. My god, anybody that knows Al knows the guy is not dishonest. His reasoning was that Al's books were priced too high.

 

 

As far as Dale's grading goes, I haven't really argued grades with Dale (or with any dealer for that matter) because I grade my own stuff in hand before I purchase it but I do believe he can grade accurately.

 

Now whether it grades out with CGC what a dealer says or not is an entirely different matter, especially considering that CGC themselves can grade a book differently on a given day. If CGC can see a book differently on two given days what is the correct grade?

 

The entire reason I now sell primarily graded books is because I don't want to argue over grade any more so I just try to get everything graded. If a book isn't graded and I have it for sale, it's my "this is what I need for the book regardless of what we think it will grade" price. Simple as that.

 

Anyhow, just trying to add a little balance to the conversation.

 

Hello Vintage, All-

 

I have to give you credit. This was an excellent post. It probably describes my approach to a large degree as well (Probably why I thought it was so excellent )

 

As well, this leads me to make a few of "confessions".

 

First- Since our exchange last year I ended up buying a couple of books (maybe 3?) from Al Stoltz. I ended up being perfectly happy with all. I say "ended up". I'll explain below.

 

As far as being a "hard marker", I would not argue that point for a minute, though I would add some color. I am typically a high grade buyer. The accumulation of my top Spidey set a few years ago taught me that high grade always sells and sells for top dollar. Josh Nathanson was instrumental in educating me on the virtue of buying the best you could afford.

 

It will probably strike a chord that most people will relate to when Io say that the cost of upgrading books was astronomical in retrospect. Had I just bought the higher graded books in the first place I would have saved so much time and money and maybe heartache. Fortunately Spidey's are/were pretty liquid so I was able to get my money back and more.

 

So what's my point? If you look at guide on a "average book" , let's say ASM 100. In VG the book guides (Overstreet) at $26, in Fine it guides at $39. So what if I buy the book as a Fine and it turns out to be VG? I am risking $13 bucks. Moreover if I am at a show, the dealer is likely to give me 10-30% off and so the difference becomes negligible. In fact, on places like eBay and even at shows, a lot of this stuff goes WELL below guide. So guide may not even be relevant. The thought that Vintage says: Regardless of grade, this is what I need to get, becomes very relevant.

 

Now let’s look at ASM 100 in 9.0 suddenly it’s a $195 guide book. In 9.2 it’s a $300 book. And surprisingly (to me at least), GPA pretty much confirms these prices. In 9.4 (GPA) the book goes to $400 and in 9.6 it goes to $5-600. If you are a high grade buyer like me, you CANNOT make many mistakes before your “investment” blows up on you.

 

Here is the rub, and please answer honestly, how many books at shows that are sold raw as “NM” would actually grade out at “9.4”. I can tell you from my personal experience that it is not very many. In fact I would estimate that most do not even reach the standard of “9.0”. In the past 12 years I have personally submitted about 2000 books to CGC. So while my volume of submissions may pale in comparison to many big dealers, I talk about this from a perspective of substantial actual experience, not anecdotal stories. Invariably, the prices on the books advertised at NM are often close to the guide in NM. In these cases the financial risk on the buyer is extraordinarily high.

 

In a quick side track, you can argue all day long that CGC is inconsistent and subject to subjective policy etc. I’m not going to defend them entirely. That being said, when we talk about CGC and their “varying grading scale” we are talking about an organization that while not perfect has a very small variance in grading. That is, maybe they are 0.5 or 0.2 (on higher grade books) off on a given book versus what you might get on a resubmission. In statistical terms we would say their grading error has a very small standard deviation and a very small variance. Now let’s all be honest: If 0.5 and 0.2 was all the difference in discussions with dealers selling raw books there would be no discussion. Who among us is going to go to the mat over a 0.5 differential?

 

That being said, an 0.2 differential can cost a substantial amount of money. Therefore since my financial risk in buying a higher grade book can be significant, I am somewhat forced to demand a lower price since statistically, the book will grade out lower than probably the expectation of both buyer AND seller. Therefore, unless price concessions can be made on higher grade books one is better off, in most cases simply buying a CGC graded book. What we see a lot of sellers (notice I am not saying ALL sellers) doing is trying to sell raw books at top price and asking the buyer to take the risk. If the dealer is confident about a high grade on a high dollar book, why don’t they have it graded? Statistically they will get more money for it. I guess the debate here might center on what defines a high dollar book?

 

A subset of this discussion also addresses a point made by Dale above. He notes that “most buyers don’t want slabbed books”. He also notes that if he sold a Captain America book at $50 they would be sold in the dealer room before they hit the floor. Last year 7 copies of CA # 110 in CGC 8.0 sold for an average price of $67. The low was $39 and the high was $101. Whether or not Dale, or any dealer, will sell an ungraded copy is not really relevant. A patient buyer had ample opportunity to buy very close to $50 and know exactly what they got. Moreover somebody else had to go through the time, trouble and expense to get the book graded.

 

I believe that what is driving the market to a more competitive place. In this day and age you only see books like X-Men sold graded. Nobody in their right mind wants to spend 10k on a book only to have it graded and find the market is actually 6k. So they buy graded. This takes subjectivity out of the equation and reduces financial exposure.

 

Now we come to my second “confession”. I took up my Four Color collection 6-7 years ago. I bought pretty much all the graded copies I could find, many on Heritage. With 0ver 1300 books, it turns out some are pretty scarce, in any grade let alone high grade. Therefore I arrived at the conclusion that I was going to step out on a limb and start buying raw books. My general disgust with overgrading finally brought me to a new place: If I could buy books at whatever grade they were advertised at and have them pressed to what they were sold at I would be happy. These go into my own collection so pressing has never bothered me. I see it as preservation. A side benefit is that it can dramatically help a book out.

 

I have discovered what I’ll call 4GEMWORKS rule on grading: Sellers will generally grade a book at whatever it would be if those nasty, non color breaking creases and folds were just not there. For some mysterious reason they view the comic as is, as Matt Nelson does when establishing the “potential grade”. Since I took this approach my satisfaction level has gone through the roof. Sure, I still return a few books, but not very many. Metropolis is an incredible example in this case. On arrival their books almost never live up to grade. Yet, after pressing, they come out virtually to the grade they were sold at. A few lower a few higher, but on average right where they were sold.

 

A great example is a book I bought from Al Stoltz (see confession #1) about 4 months ago. It was a book sold as a VF+++. I sent it to Matt Nelson.; Matt noted that there was actually restoration and thought the book had a shot at an 8.0 if the restoration was removed (tear seals). I contacted Al and he agreed to refund $75 to pay for the restoration removal. When I finally got it back from CGC it was an 8.5. I was indeed very happy. It was a $300 book. I will note the book was priced at above guide to start with, reiterating my theory that dealers try to sell raw books at top dollar for the stated grade, even if the grade is not up to par. I’ll admit, this took (takes) a lot of time energy and expense. But my thought today is that if a book is worth going into my personal collection, it is worth having pressed. A side benefit is the discovery of restoration as in this case.

 

Honestly, if I were a dealer, I’d have any book worth $100 or more quick pressed if nothing else. I hate to say this because I’m afraid dealers might actually start to do it. If I do find a “true” 9.4 there is a great chance I can see it go to 9.6. In the beginning stages of GCG the great opportunity for "flippers" was to simply buy raw books and get them graded. There were so few they sold at astronomical prices. I still remember the first couple of 10.0's that sold at something over $1000 for otherwise ordinary books. That day is gone. A lot of the great books have been found and graded. For "flippers" the great opportunity of today is finding pressable books and making them the best they can be. This is why CGC bought Matt Nelson's business. The cat is "out of the bag".

 

A last “confession” on dealers: I admire the fact that many dealers are willing to be in business at all and I probably am too hard on them to the extent that I don’t think a lot of them are wealthy as a result of buying and selling back issue comic books, even if they do have ethical lapses.. I have no idea how in the modern world of tech and instant information how these guys make any money at all. I guess you really have to be in love with the whole industry to take on the role of dealer. Plus all, the travelling, yikes. God bless the dealers. If I “had” to become adealer and trade places with anybody, it would be Josh at Comiclink, offering, for the most part, only graded books. No hassling over grades, just putting books up for sale and taking 10% off the top. He got in early and has a solid business. I am guessing he does make a pretty good living.

 

Incidentally, as a last comment; I went into Mile High today on Jason Street. They had transferred a book in from their online warehouse. It was a NM selling at $308. I pulled it out and noticed a modest but small crease on the front and back. I went to the manager and asked if he had the authority to change grade and price. He says no sweat. He come back five minutes later and says no problem, I’ll sell it at the next notch down, $200. I then get 30% off and pay $140. Guide on the book in VF is $137. In truth the book is probably closer to a 7.5, but I think I can get it pressed to better. At this point I would NEVER try to get ANY adjustment out of Mile High. I held it in my hand, negotiated a price and left. It will probably cost me $50-75 to get it pressed and graded but I am very confident, based on past experience that I will get my money’s worth and maybe more for the value added.

 

PS- I have been around a long time and you don’t see me write a lot. Frankly for me to answer questions and discuss things in the complete fashion that I seem destined to, simply takes too much time. I have no idea how some posters mange to be here as often as they do. I simply don’t have the time.

 

[Icculus308win]

Ted at Superworld, has been nothing short of fantastic grading wise and into his customer service.

 

I ordered a NM Four Color from Mile High - received it today actually. I don't really feel if I sent it to get slabbed a 9.4 would come back to me. A slight chance perhaps.

But a 75% chance a 9.2 would arrive on my doorstep.

 

 

[buttock]

I don't see any lashing or attack.

 

4GEMWORKS is what I would typically call a "hard marker" if he was a teacher marking student's papers. He has exceedingly high standards and is tough on dealers when it comes to rating them, which is fine, but it is possible for someone to have unreasonably high standards that are out of touch with the reality of the situation.

 

For example, I remember last year debating with 4GEMWORKS because he posted his experience with Al Stoltz last year in a thread about dishonest dealers. My god, anybody that knows Al knows the guy is not dishonest. His reasoning was that Al's books were priced too high.

 

 

As far as Dale's grading goes, I haven't really argued grades with Dale (or with any dealer for that matter) because I grade my own stuff in hand before I purchase it but I do believe he can grade accurately.

 

Now whether it grades out with CGC what a dealer says or not is an entirely different matter, especially considering that CGC themselves can grade a book differently on a given day. If CGC can see a book differently on two given days what is the correct grade?

 

The entire reason I now sell primarily graded books is because I don't want to argue over grade any more so I just try to get everything graded. If a book isn't graded and I have it for sale, it's my "this is what I need for the book regardless of what we think it will grade" price. Simple as that.

 

Anyhow, just trying to add a little balance to the conversation.

 

Hello Vintage, All-

 

I have to give you credit. This was an excellent post. It probably describes my approach to a large degree as well (Probably why I thought it was so excellent )

 

As well, this leads me to make a few of "confessions".

 

First- Since our exchange last year I ended up buying a couple of books (maybe 3?) from Al Stoltz. I ended up being perfectly happy with all. I say "ended up". I'll explain below.

 

As far as being a "hard marker", I would not argue that point for a minute, though I would add some color. I am typically a high grade buyer. The accumulation of my top Spidey set a few years ago taught me that high grade always sells and sells for top dollar. Josh Nathanson was instrumental in educating me on the virtue of buying the best you could afford.

 

It will probably strike a chord that most people will relate to when Io say that the cost of upgrading books was astronomical in retrospect. Had I just bought the higher graded books in the first place I would have saved so much time and money and maybe heartache. Fortunately Spidey's are/were pretty liquid so I was able to get my money back and more.

 

So what's my point? If you look at guide on a "average book" , let's say ASM 100. In VG the book guides (Overstreet) at $26, in Fine it guides at $39. So what if I buy the book as a Fine and it turns out to be VG? I am risking $13 bucks. Moreover if I am at a show, the dealer is likely to give me 10-30% off and so the difference becomes negligible. In fact, on places like eBay and even at shows, a lot of this stuff goes WELL below guide. So guide may not even be relevant. The thought that Vintage says: Regardless of grade, this is what I need to get, becomes very relevant.

 

Now let’s look at ASM 100 in 9.0 suddenly it’s a $195 guide book. In 9.2 it’s a $300 book. And surprisingly (to me at least), GPA pretty much confirms these prices. In 9.4 (GPA) the book goes to $400 and in 9.6 it goes to $5-600. If you are a high grade buyer like me, you CANNOT make many mistakes before your “investment” blows up on you.

 

Here is the rub, and please answer honestly, how many books at shows that are sold raw as “NM” would actually grade out at “9.4”. I can tell you from my personal experience that it is not very many. In fact I would estimate that most do not even reach the standard of “9.0”. In the past 12 years I have personally submitted about 2000 books to CGC. So while my volume of submissions may pale in comparison to many big dealers, I talk about this from a perspective of substantial actual experience, not anecdotal stories. Invariably, the prices on the books advertised at NM are often close to the guide in NM. In these cases the financial risk on the buyer is extraordinarily high.

 

In a quick side track, you can argue all day long that CGC is inconsistent and subject to subjective policy etc. I’m not going to defend them entirely. That being said, when we talk about CGC and their “varying grading scale” we are talking about an organization that while not perfect has a very small variance in grading. That is, maybe they are 0.5 or 0.2 (on higher grade books) off on a given book versus what you might get on a resubmission. In statistical terms we would say their grading error has a very small standard deviation and a very small variance. Now let’s all be honest: If 0.5 and 0.2 was all the difference in discussions with dealers selling raw books there would be no discussion. Who among us is going to go to the mat over a 0.5 differential?

 

That being said, an 0.2 differential can cost a substantial amount of money. Therefore since my financial risk in buying a higher grade book can be significant, I am somewhat forced to demand a lower price since statistically, the book will grade out lower than probably the expectation of both buyer AND seller. Therefore, unless price concessions can be made on higher grade books one is better off, in most cases simply buying a CGC graded book. What we see a lot of sellers (notice I am not saying ALL sellers) doing is trying to sell raw books at top price and asking the buyer to take the risk. If the dealer is confident about a high grade on a high dollar book, why don’t they have it graded? Statistically they will get more money for it. I guess the debate here might center on what defines a high dollar book?

 

A subset of this discussion also addresses a point made by Dale above. He notes that “most buyers don’t want slabbed books”. He also notes that if he sold a Captain America book at $50 they would be sold in the dealer room before they hit the floor. Last year 7 copies of CA # 110 in CGC 8.0 sold for an average price of $67. The low was $39 and the high was $101. Whether or not Dale, or any dealer, will sell an ungraded copy is not really relevant. A patient buyer had ample opportunity to buy very close to $50 and know exactly what they got. Moreover somebody else had to go through the time, trouble and expense to get the book graded.

 

I believe that what is driving the market to a more competitive place. In this day and age you only see books like X-Men sold graded. Nobody in their right mind wants to spend 10k on a book only to have it graded and find the market is actually 6k. So they buy graded. This takes subjectivity out of the equation and reduces financial exposure.

 

Now we come to my second “confession”. I took up my Four Color collection 6-7 years ago. I bought pretty much all the graded copies I could find, many on Heritage. With 0ver 1300 books, it turns out some are pretty scarce, in any grade let alone high grade. Therefore I arrived at the conclusion that I was going to step out on a limb and start buying raw books. My general disgust with overgrading finally brought me to a new place: If I could buy books at whatever grade they were advertised at and have them pressed to what they were sold at I would be happy. These go into my own collection so pressing has never bothered me. I see it as preservation. A side benefit is that it can dramatically help a book out.

 

I have discovered what I’ll call 4GEMWORKS rule on grading: Sellers will generally grade a book at whatever it would be if those nasty, non color breaking creases and folds were just not there. For some mysterious reason they view the comic as is, as Matt Nelson does when establishing the “potential grade”. Since I took this approach my satisfaction level has gone through the roof. Sure, I still return a few books, but not very many. Metropolis is an incredible example in this case. On arrival their books almost never live up to grade. Yet, after pressing, they come out virtually to the grade they were sold at. A few lower a few higher, but on average right where they were sold.

 

A great example is a book I bought from Al Stoltz (see confession #1) about 4 months ago. It was a book sold as a VF+++. I sent it to Matt Nelson.; Matt noted that there was actually restoration and thought the book had a shot at an 8.0 if the restoration was removed (tear seals). I contacted Al and he agreed to refund $75 to pay for the restoration removal. When I finally got it back from CGC it was an 8.5. I was indeed very happy. It was a $300 book. I will note the book was priced at above guide to start with, reiterating my theory that dealers try to sell raw books at top dollar for the stated grade, even if the grade is not up to par. I’ll admit, this took (takes) a lot of time energy and expense. But my thought today is that if a book is worth going into my personal collection, it is worth having pressed. A side benefit is the discovery of restoration as in this case.

 

Honestly, if I were a dealer, I’d have any book worth $100 or more quick pressed if nothing else. I hate to say this because I’m afraid dealers might actually start to do it. If I do find a “true” 9.4 there is a great chance I can see it go to 9.6. In the beginning stages of GCG the great opportunity for "flippers" was to simply buy raw books and get them graded. There were so few they sold at astronomical prices. I still remember the first couple of 10.0's that sold at something over $1000 for otherwise ordinary books. That day is gone. A lot of the great books have been found and graded. For "flippers" the great opportunity of today is finding pressable books and making them the best they can be. This is why CGC bought Matt Nelson's business. The cat is "out of the bag".

 

A last “confession” on dealers: I admire the fact that many dealers are willing to be in business at all and I probably am too hard on them to the extent that I don’t think a lot of them are wealthy as a result of buying and selling back issue comic books, even if they do have ethical lapses.. I have no idea how in the modern world of tech and instant information how these guys make any money at all. I guess you really have to be in love with the whole industry to take on the role of dealer. Plus all, the travelling, yikes. God bless the dealers. If I “had” to become adealer and trade places with anybody, it would be Josh at Comiclink, offering, for the most part, only graded books. No hassling over grades, just putting books up for sale and taking 10% off the top. He got in early and has a solid business. I am guessing he does make a pretty good living.

 

Incidentally, as a last comment; I went into Mile High today on Jason Street. They had transferred a book in from their online warehouse. It was a NM selling at $308. I pulled it out and noticed a modest but small crease on the front and back. I went to the manager and asked if he had the authority to change grade and price. He says no sweat. He come back five minutes later and says no problem, I’ll sell it at the next notch down, $200. I then get 30% off and pay $140. Guide on the book in VF is $137. In truth the book is probably closer to a 7.5, but I think I can get it pressed to better. At this point I would NEVER try to get ANY adjustment out of Mile High. I held it in my hand, negotiated a price and left. It will probably cost me $50-75 to get it pressed and graded but I am very confident, based on past experience that I will get my money’s worth and maybe more for the value added.

 

PS- I have been around a long time and you don’t see me write a lot. Frankly for me to answer questions and discuss things in the complete fashion that I seem destined to, simply takes too much time. I have no idea how some posters mange to be here as often as they do. I simply don’t have the time.

 

You've done a fine job describing why I'm becoming largely disinterested in comics.

[MrBedrock]

You've done a fine job describing why I'm becoming largely disinterested in comics.

But the holders are very intriguing.

[Ogami]

I don't see any lashing or attack.

 

4GEMWORKS is what I would typically call a "hard marker" if he was a teacher marking student's papers. He has exceedingly high standards and is tough on dealers when it comes to rating them, which is fine, but it is possible for someone to have unreasonably high standards that are out of touch with the reality of the situation.

 

For example, I remember last year debating with 4GEMWORKS because he posted his experience with Al Stoltz last year in a thread about dishonest dealers. My god, anybody that knows Al knows the guy is not dishonest. His reasoning was that Al's books were priced too high.

 

 

As far as Dale's grading goes, I haven't really argued grades with Dale (or with any dealer for that matter) because I grade my own stuff in hand before I purchase it but I do believe he can grade accurately.

 

Now whether it grades out with CGC what a dealer says or not is an entirely different matter, especially considering that CGC themselves can grade a book differently on a given day. If CGC can see a book differently on two given days what is the correct grade?

 

The entire reason I now sell primarily graded books is because I don't want to argue over grade any more so I just try to get everything graded. If a book isn't graded and I have it for sale, it's my "this is what I need for the book regardless of what we think it will grade" price. Simple as that.

 

Anyhow, just trying to add a little balance to the conversation.

 

Hello Vintage, All-

 

I have to give you credit. This was an excellent post. It probably describes my approach to a large degree as well (Probably why I thought it was so excellent )

 

As well, this leads me to make a few of "confessions".

 

First- Since our exchange last year I ended up buying a couple of books (maybe 3?) from Al Stoltz. I ended up being perfectly happy with all. I say "ended up". I'll explain below.

 

As far as being a "hard marker", I would not argue that point for a minute, though I would add some color. I am typically a high grade buyer. The accumulation of my top Spidey set a few years ago taught me that high grade always sells and sells for top dollar. Josh Nathanson was instrumental in educating me on the virtue of buying the best you could afford.

 

It will probably strike a chord that most people will relate to when Io say that the cost of upgrading books was astronomical in retrospect. Had I just bought the higher graded books in the first place I would have saved so much time and money and maybe heartache. Fortunately Spidey's are/were pretty liquid so I was able to get my money back and more.

 

So what's my point? If you look at guide on a "average book" , let's say ASM 100. In VG the book guides (Overstreet) at $26, in Fine it guides at $39. So what if I buy the book as a Fine and it turns out to be VG? I am risking $13 bucks. Moreover if I am at a show, the dealer is likely to give me 10-30% off and so the difference becomes negligible. In fact, on places like eBay and even at shows, a lot of this stuff goes WELL below guide. So guide may not even be relevant. The thought that Vintage says: Regardless of grade, this is what I need to get, becomes very relevant.

 

Now let’s look at ASM 100 in 9.0 suddenly it’s a $195 guide book. In 9.2 it’s a $300 book. And surprisingly (to me at least), GPA pretty much confirms these prices. In 9.4 (GPA) the book goes to $400 and in 9.6 it goes to $5-600. If you are a high grade buyer like me, you CANNOT make many mistakes before your “investment” blows up on you.

 

Here is the rub, and please answer honestly, how many books at shows that are sold raw as “NM” would actually grade out at “9.4”. I can tell you from my personal experience that it is not very many. In fact I would estimate that most do not even reach the standard of “9.0”. In the past 12 years I have personally submitted about 2000 books to CGC. So while my volume of submissions may pale in comparison to many big dealers, I talk about this from a perspective of substantial actual experience, not anecdotal stories. Invariably, the prices on the books advertised at NM are often close to the guide in NM. In these cases the financial risk on the buyer is extraordinarily high.

 

In a quick side track, you can argue all day long that CGC is inconsistent and subject to subjective policy etc. I’m not going to defend them entirely. That being said, when we talk about CGC and their “varying grading scale” we are talking about an organization that while not perfect has a very small variance in grading. That is, maybe they are 0.5 or 0.2 (on higher grade books) off on a given book versus what you might get on a resubmission. In statistical terms we would say their grading error has a very small standard deviation and a very small variance. Now let’s all be honest: If 0.5 and 0.2 was all the difference in discussions with dealers selling raw books there would be no discussion. Who among us is going to go to the mat over a 0.5 differential?

 

That being said, an 0.2 differential can cost a substantial amount of money. Therefore since my financial risk in buying a higher grade book can be significant, I am somewhat forced to demand a lower price since statistically, the book will grade out lower than probably the expectation of both buyer AND seller. Therefore, unless price concessions can be made on higher grade books one is better off, in most cases simply buying a CGC graded book. What we see a lot of sellers (notice I am not saying ALL sellers) doing is trying to sell raw books at top price and asking the buyer to take the risk. If the dealer is confident about a high grade on a high dollar book, why don’t they have it graded? Statistically they will get more money for it. I guess the debate here might center on what defines a high dollar book?

 

A subset of this discussion also addresses a point made by Dale above. He notes that “most buyers don’t want slabbed books”. He also notes that if he sold a Captain America book at $50 they would be sold in the dealer room before they hit the floor. Last year 7 copies of CA # 110 in CGC 8.0 sold for an average price of $67. The low was $39 and the high was $101. Whether or not Dale, or any dealer, will sell an ungraded copy is not really relevant. A patient buyer had ample opportunity to buy very close to $50 and know exactly what they got. Moreover somebody else had to go through the time, trouble and expense to get the book graded.

 

I believe that what is driving the market to a more competitive place. In this day and age you only see books like X-Men sold graded. Nobody in their right mind wants to spend 10k on a book only to have it graded and find the market is actually 6k. So they buy graded. This takes subjectivity out of the equation and reduces financial exposure.

 

Now we come to my second “confession”. I took up my Four Color collection 6-7 years ago. I bought pretty much all the graded copies I could find, many on Heritage. With 0ver 1300 books, it turns out some are pretty scarce, in any grade let alone high grade. Therefore I arrived at the conclusion that I was going to step out on a limb and start buying raw books. My general disgust with overgrading finally brought me to a new place: If I could buy books at whatever grade they were advertised at and have them pressed to what they were sold at I would be happy. These go into my own collection so pressing has never bothered me. I see it as preservation. A side benefit is that it can dramatically help a book out.

 

I have discovered what I’ll call 4GEMWORKS rule on grading: Sellers will generally grade a book at whatever it would be if those nasty, non color breaking creases and folds were just not there. For some mysterious reason they view the comic as is, as Matt Nelson does when establishing the “potential grade”. Since I took this approach my satisfaction level has gone through the roof. Sure, I still return a few books, but not very many. Metropolis is an incredible example in this case. On arrival their books almost never live up to grade. Yet, after pressing, they come out virtually to the grade they were sold at. A few lower a few higher, but on average right where they were sold.

 

A great example is a book I bought from Al Stoltz (see confession #1) about 4 months ago. It was a book sold as a VF+++. I sent it to Matt Nelson.; Matt noted that there was actually restoration and thought the book had a shot at an 8.0 if the restoration was removed (tear seals). I contacted Al and he agreed to refund $75 to pay for the restoration removal. When I finally got it back from CGC it was an 8.5. I was indeed very happy. It was a $300 book. I will note the book was priced at above guide to start with, reiterating my theory that dealers try to sell raw books at top dollar for the stated grade, even if the grade is not up to par. I’ll admit, this took (takes) a lot of time energy and expense. But my thought today is that if a book is worth going into my personal collection, it is worth having pressed. A side benefit is the discovery of restoration as in this case.

 

Honestly, if I were a dealer, I’d have any book worth $100 or more quick pressed if nothing else. I hate to say this because I’m afraid dealers might actually start to do it. If I do find a “true” 9.4 there is a great chance I can see it go to 9.6. In the beginning stages of GCG the great opportunity for "flippers" was to simply buy raw books and get them graded. There were so few they sold at astronomical prices. I still remember the first couple of 10.0's that sold at something over $1000 for otherwise ordinary books. That day is gone. A lot of the great books have been found and graded. For "flippers" the great opportunity of today is finding pressable books and making them the best they can be. This is why CGC bought Matt Nelson's business. The cat is "out of the bag".

 

A last “confession” on dealers: I admire the fact that many dealers are willing to be in business at all and I probably am too hard on them to the extent that I don’t think a lot of them are wealthy as a result of buying and selling back issue comic books, even if they do have ethical lapses.. I have no idea how in the modern world of tech and instant information how these guys make any money at all. I guess you really have to be in love with the whole industry to take on the role of dealer. Plus all, the travelling, yikes. God bless the dealers. If I “had” to become adealer and trade places with anybody, it would be Josh at Comiclink, offering, for the most part, only graded books. No hassling over grades, just putting books up for sale and taking 10% off the top. He got in early and has a solid business. I am guessing he does make a pretty good living.

 

Incidentally, as a last comment; I went into Mile High today on Jason Street. They had transferred a book in from their online warehouse. It was a NM selling at $308. I pulled it out and noticed a modest but small crease on the front and back. I went to the manager and asked if he had the authority to change grade and price. He says no sweat. He come back five minutes later and says no problem, I’ll sell it at the next notch down, $200. I then get 30% off and pay $140. Guide on the book in VF is $137. In truth the book is probably closer to a 7.5, but I think I can get it pressed to better. At this point I would NEVER try to get ANY adjustment out of Mile High. I held it in my hand, negotiated a price and left. It will probably cost me $50-75 to get it pressed and graded but I am very confident, based on past experience that I will get my money’s worth and maybe more for the value added.

 

PS- I have been around a long time and you don’t see me write a lot. Frankly for me to answer questions and discuss things in the complete fashion that I seem destined to, simply takes too much time. I have no idea how some posters mange to be here as often as they do. I simply don’t have the time.

 

You've done a fine job describing why I'm becoming largely disinterested in comics.

 

For me, add "collecting" comics.

 

All in all, a great post.

[VintageComics]

I don't see any lashing or attack.

 

4GEMWORKS is what I would typically call a "hard marker" if he was a teacher marking student's papers. He has exceedingly high standards and is tough on dealers when it comes to rating them, which is fine, but it is possible for someone to have unreasonably high standards that are out of touch with the reality of the situation.

 

For example, I remember last year debating with 4GEMWORKS because he posted his experience with Al Stoltz last year in a thread about dishonest dealers. My god, anybody that knows Al knows the guy is not dishonest. His reasoning was that Al's books were priced too high.

 

 

As far as Dale's grading goes, I haven't really argued grades with Dale (or with any dealer for that matter) because I grade my own stuff in hand before I purchase it but I do believe he can grade accurately.

 

Now whether it grades out with CGC what a dealer says or not is an entirely different matter, especially considering that CGC themselves can grade a book differently on a given day. If CGC can see a book differently on two given days what is the correct grade?

 

The entire reason I now sell primarily graded books is because I don't want to argue over grade any more so I just try to get everything graded. If a book isn't graded and I have it for sale, it's my "this is what I need for the book regardless of what we think it will grade" price. Simple as that.

 

Anyhow, just trying to add a little balance to the conversation.

 

Hello Vintage, All-

 

I have to give you credit. This was an excellent post. It probably describes my approach to a large degree as well (Probably why I thought it was so excellent )

 

Thnx.

 

(thumbs u

 

Here is the rub, and please answer honestly, how many books at shows that are sold raw as “NM” would actually grade out at “9.4”. I can tell you from my personal experience that it is not very many. In fact I would estimate that most do not even reach the standard of “9.0”. In the past 12 years I have personally submitted about 2000 books to CGC. So while my volume of submissions may pale in comparison to many big dealers, I talk about this from a perspective of substantial actual experience, not anecdotal stories. Invariably, the prices on the books advertised at NM are often close to the guide in NM. In these cases the financial risk on the buyer is extraordinarily high.

 

In a quick side track, you can argue all day long that CGC is inconsistent and subject to subjective policy etc. I’m not going to defend them entirely. That being said, when we talk about CGC and their “varying grading scale” we are talking about an organization that while not perfect has a very small variance in grading. That is, maybe they are 0.5 or 0.2 (on higher grade books) off on a given book versus what you might get on a resubmission. In statistical terms we would say their grading error has a very small standard deviation and a very small variance. Now let’s all be honest: If 0.5 and 0.2 was all the difference in discussions with dealers selling raw books there would be no discussion. Who among us is going to go to the mat over a 0.5 differential?

 

 

I guess I'm just going to disagree with you as many of the dealers I deal with grade very well but then maybe some of them have a different hat on when I approach because they know I can grade. Who knows? I can't discount all of your own experiences out of hand.

 

As I said, I don't even look at dealer's grades any more I just grade my own books and if there happens to be a discrepancy on price (because our grades differ), I'll just point out my reasoning as to why and they usually compromise. They are in the business of selling so if you're reasonable they're usually open minded.

 

I think what most dealers hate is "the game" where customers might use whatever means necessary to get "a deal". Straight forward customers usually get straight forward replies from dealers.

 

Having said that, I could probably name a dozen dealers that grade accurately, or close enough that you would be within a 0.2 ballpark with CGC. Me being one of them.

 

[blazingbob]

Just like Dale I will state that I'm not sure who you are or if I've sold you a book. I've never approached being a Comic dealer as a way to play games or people when I sell them something. I try and grade the best I can and am always open to learning something to make me grade better. If I bang heads with a customer over grading I will then steer them towards CGC books who by the way I've banged heads with over their grading lapses.

 

I am constantly perplexed at the us versus them mentality that this business has. As if long term relationships mean nothing. As if I never want to sell you another book ever again. When customers automatically think I'm lying to them.

 

As far as grading goes I've always stated that the person grading is only as good as who taught him. Without being taught by someone and left to reading a grading guide that contradicts itself all over the place I am surprised at how many books are even in the ballpark. The crutch of "Grading is subjective" really means "I hope somebody taught me how to grade correctly".

 

Sometimes I feel that the only reason CGC is successful is because it takes the argument over who is the better grader when dealing with a purchase. Sometimes the EGO'S are more important than the book being purchased.

[4GEMWORKS]

Based on input from members commenting here I ordered a couple of books from Jim Payette. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and looking very much forward to getting them. Also I giot a couple more high grade books from Mile High that were superb (Viewed and poicked up at their Jason Street store).

 

Inj any case thanks for the many great feedbacks!

[romanheart]

Superworld ant Ted get thumbs up from me too.

 

I think is grading is superb and they package securely. They will even deal although you have to know that they can only reduce so much. They only deal with vintage comics, nothing recent.