East of West 1 1

[cujobyte]

Mashed, do you have cliff notes for all that?

[Mashed Potatoes-migration]

Yeah...

1. Flippers make more than minimum wage doing what they do. The notion of the unwitting flipper that is working for minimum wage is a fallacy perpetrated on the boards by people who don't like the fact that flippers look at comics as commodities and their volume sales model drive down average sale price per comic.

2. Bubble burst is in the offing, probably in a year. Smart, conservative move is to sell a portion of your comics to cover cost in case it bursts sooner. Then let the remaining copies sit till you heart is content or the right price comes along. Either way, since you cover costs, you won't be left at a loss.

3. I need to stop posting. This is my last post. This is taking too much time today and I am compulsive about stuff. So I will stfu. Going back with all of the other speculator/flippers to lurker mode. Said my peace. Now out. Will continue to scan the boards for a juicy post that leads to a hidden gem. Just like the Helheim one yesterday on Oni Press online sales of the variants. Thanks to that poster I grabbed both variants. So did my girlfriend. So did her sister. So did my Mom.

[MutantKeys]

Who's this "Viperdays" you guys speak of? :shrug:

 

this thread started off with a boatload of people piling in talking about how many copies of this they had pre-ordered.

 

Followed by many other people then trashing the book saying it would flop in secondary value a la bedlam.

 

Followed by others saying quality is what matters, not print run, a la Saga.

 

viperdays was one of the people who bought 100 copies, and it led to a lot of side arguments, and an underlining current of discussion on bubbles, methods of ordering comics etc.

 

Really, the recent sub-subjects are par for the course in this thread .

 

Anyway, let's get back to money with numismatic value!!

 

 

midtown can make 9.8s, who knew

 

Thanks for the info (thumbs u

I would have explained MK, but CBT likes to explain things

 

Aren't you the one with the podcast?

[krighton]

Yeah...

1. Flippers make more than minimum wage doing what they do. The notion of the unwitting flipper that is working for minimum wage is a fallacy perpetrated on the boards by people who don't like the fact that flippers look at comics as commodities and their volume sales model drive down average sale price per comic.

2. Bubble burst is in the offing, probably in a year. Smart, conservative move is to sell a portion of your comics to cover cost in case it bursts sooner. Then let the remaining copies sit till you heart is content or the right price comes along. Either way, since you cover costs, you won't be left at a loss.

3. I need to stop posting. This is my last post. This is taking too much time today and I am compulsive about stuff. So I will stfu. Going back with all of the other speculator/flippers to lurker mode. Said my peace. Now out. Will continue to scan the boards for a juicy post that leads to a hidden gem. Just like the Helheim one yesterday on Oni Press online sales of the variants. Thanks to that poster I grabbed both variants. So did my girlfriend. So did her sister. So did my Mom.

 

Thanks Nostradamus...back to eow.

[ItsJustRyan]

Wall of text:

 

To affirm CBT's point and take it a step further, thinking of comics as investment is a mind trap. Selling a book for 2x cover is a great margin on paper "I doubled my money". The problem is that you can't look at comics as a margin based investment because the process is labor intensive. You have to look at it as a wage. Not "I doubled my money" but rather I spent four hours driving to the LCS picking out my books, listing them on on eBay, answering buyer questions, picking up packing supplies, packing up the books and taking them to the post office (I realize that these steps can be done more efficiently) so I bought 5 books and sold them all for 2x cover after PayPal and eBay fees I profited $16, or in other words, I made $4.00 per hour.

 

Some people can broaden the scale and increases efficiencies to make the process work and that's great for them. The problem is that this type of model can be damaging to the hobby if it becomes too pervasive. When people have pallets of books in their garage, they tend to panic and dump at the first sign of instability.

 

The targeted high margin approach the CBT mentioned (that has been mastered by many of the old school boardies that don't post here anymore) is much more effective and healthier for the hobby. It's not as fast and it takes some patience but the pay off is well wrong it. It is in everyone's best interest to study the market, learn what to look for in new books and learn how to maximize your time investment like CBT suggested. The image 1 bubble won't last forever, but there will be something else after it. Don't ask "what books should I buy" ask "why did those guys know to buy those books?" "Why did East of West look like a good bet compared to so many other books?" If you spent the time to study the market, you will have a good idea when to get out and you will see what is comming next early in the game. If you use the shotgun approach you may hit some targets but you won't have a sustainable model when the market changes.

 

I don't disagree with the overall notion that a buy and hold strategy, rather than a quick flip is a preferable model (especially for the industry). But I think that everybody is over exaggerating the labor intensive story of selling comic books, which leads to this unreal notion that it equates to minimum wage. It does not take four hours to buy and sell 5 books. I am sorry, but it doesn't unless you are in a slow-mo universe. There are economies of scale in place with large shipment orders and ways to work smarter, not harder. I know the poster above readily admits that efficiencies can be gained in his example, but his/her example is not indicative of how the people I know run through the comic book buy/sell/ship process. The example above is the exception and not the rule.

 

Let's break down the four hour example used above to sell 5 comic books with how much time it actually took me to unload 80 books in a week. I bought 250 EOW #1 and 50 EOW FP #1. I sold 60 of EOW #1 and 20 of the EOW FP #1, to roughly cover costs of purchasing all 300 books ($2 and change per regular book and $7 for FP). The rest are going to sit in my closet or at CGC till at least issue #6.

 

1. Buying the books (6 minutes) - It took all of two minutes at DCB, TFAW and FP to order my books online. Why go to a comic store when you can buy it cheaper online, and they deliver to your door? There is no drive involved....nothing. Buying books is as simple as going to the web site, clicking add to cart for your book, adjusting the quantity, and then checking out. This is not labor intensive. Searching for a good YouTube video is more labor intensive.

2. Buying packing supplies online through Amazon Prime (4 minutes) - Again, buy online as it is cheaper, shipping is free and there is no drive time involved. This is not labor intensive.

3. Receiving books - They come bag and boarded. There is nothing to do outside of moving them to your comic book boxes. This is not labor intensive. It takes a few minutes. Again, less labor intensive than googling a new meme.

4. Packaging - This is the most labor intensive aspect of the process, but there are ways around it. I invited my friend over who has a 11 year old kid. The little guy likes to help out. So he packaged the books while I hung out with his Mom. Aiden inspects the books for me, can spot NM books, and is careful to package them for me. There has never been one complaint of his packaging and shipping. If children this age in other modern day countries or during the industrial revolution can perform complex duties in factories, modern day American kids can surely package a comic book. Not rocket science here. He worked for a little bit over an hour (call it 90 minutes) to package 60 books in lots of 5 or 10. Actual time it took me = 0 minutes. Actual cost = a medium cookie dough milk shake from Baskin Robbins.

5. Listing on eBay (20 minutes) - Creating the first eBay listing takes 20 minutes, less so if you have a template already. Since you are selling the same product over and over again, each additional listing takes less than 5 seconds to click "list similar item". This is not labor intensive. I also have a list of people I sell to outside of eBay that I send out one bulk email to. Some of my biggest sales actually don't happen on eBay but through my email list.

6. Answering questions (1-2 minutes a question) - If you auction description is detailed enough, you don't get that many questions. The main question I got was, "do you have any more EOW?" or "can you hold 10 till Friday when I get my paycheck?". It is not labor intensive to read one sentence and respond back, "Yes, I have more books and can hold them for you. Have a nice day."

7. Shipping (2 minute) - Also not labor intensive. Because all the boxes I have are uniform, and already packed; I know the shipping weight. So shipping is comprised of clicking on print shipping label in eBay or PayPal, selecting the service type and weight, then sticking the label on the prepacked box, and then clicking on another button to schedule a mail pickup. I don't go to the post office or ups or fedex when they offer to come to you. You don't even need to input the tracking number to communicate to the seller because eBay and Paypal do that for you automatically.

 

So I don't get this minimum wage stuff that people keep on throwing out there. I have honestly spent more time reading and writing on the EOW thread today alone than I have spent selling and shipping books this week. I have spent maybe 2 hours on the entire EOW buying, selling, shipping process for selling 80 books, 60 of which are already out the door. So that is around $1000 in comics in under two hours of actual work (reading the boards and bleeding cool not included in this analysis). If you take out the ebay/paypal fees, along with the initial cost of the 80 books and include the milkshake fees, the profit is $600 for about two hours of actual work. That is $300 an hour for this example. How is that minimum wage? Let's say that I did not use child labor and packaged them myself and spent an exaggerated additional four hours doing so, that still comes out to $100 an hour.

 

I agree that you can fatten up your margins if your wait longer and take a chance that a book appreciates. But most volume investors are going to cover their initial costs first and flip off the bat. The investment philosophy you guys are saying is true if a book appreciates, but some of these comments of how little instant flippers make per hour is far far far far from true. Let's not kid ourselves here while defaming flippers. You can dislike them for damaging the comic industry, or driving down the price of a book since they have a volume profit model, or the fact that they put profit over the content of a book, but let's not think that they a foolish enough to work for minimum wage. The only flippers making minimum wage are the ones that do all four of these things; drive 30 miles to comic stores, wait in hour long lines at the post office to ship, sell/package books one by one, and sell books for $0.50 above their purchase price. I can't say for sure, but I don't think there are any that check all of these boxes. I know a few flippers (not Viperdays). None of them operate this way. They are all savvy business people that have well paying jobs and broad investment portfolios. There are too many opportunity costs and the concept of comparative advantage keeps them from working for minimum wage. Comic books are just another investment item for them and they would not do it for minimum wage.

 

As to what is healthier for the industry, you are right that wide-spread speculation and a flooding of non-traditional collectors distorting the natural supply demand equilibrium is going to pop this bubble. This is no different than investing in tulips in 17th century Holland, or purchasing debt in the South Seas company, or investing in the pre1929 US stock market on margin. All of these were bubbles that were driven with speculation. And like these bubbles, there will be a correction, but who knows when. Some speculators will lose money at the end, some will have costs covered at a minimum. The speculators that won't get caught in a bubble burst are the ones that immediately cover costs. I have covered all costs on my comics. So if I don't sell another comic and they all get reduced to $0 value, I still won't lose anything and would have made a profit...above minimum wage. Enough above minimum wage that Saga paid for the new double paned windows in my house. NWM is going to pay for the new bar I am installing. I still have over 200 EOW, 50 Sex, 50 Helheim, 3 SAGA RRP 9.8, 2 Comics Pro ToT 9.8, and 6 Saga #1 getting graded at CGC. So I am hoping that this still market keeps up a little longer.

 

 

Mash Tater Man:

 

I'm sure there is something good in there somewhere, but I'll never know...

 

From one of the wisest professors in my academic career:

 

Brevity adds power to the words you chose.

[ItsJustRyan]

Aren't you the one with the podcast?

 

Touché

 

 

[Mike's Rack]

If you want to further discuss this topic, I would ask that you start another thread. I won't bother since you said you are done posting.

 

Well, my point was not that you are wrong, my point was that talking about comics in terms of return on investment was wrong and it should be looked at in terms of an hourly wage. I think your post helped prove that point. But it's also not accurate to only calculate your wages for the books that hit, what about the fails? Tell us those stories.

 

Most of us here like comics and would be buying selling and trading comics even if the value was purely for our love of the books. We want to be stewards of the hobby that we love so we can enjoy it long term. Therefore we embrace a model that is good for the hobby as a whole not a "grab what you can while the bubble expands" view. Buying and selling comics based on an appreciation of the market and a love for the books is a good thing and will lead to a healthy hobby. Buying bulk without taking the time to truly understand the hobby and trying to grab all the cash you can before the easy money stops and acting like you don't give a damn as long as you get yours is bad for the hobby and probably the reason that viper and others like him don't get a very warm reception here.

 

Anyway, enough of that in the East of West thread. Did I say I really enjoyed this book? I thought the art was excellent and the story abounds with potential. I wish the OA was all hand drawn. I agree with CBT, this book is not a spoon feed recycled storyline.

[CBT]

MashedPotatoes to the woodshed for those who care, spoiler tags for those who dont

 

 

 

 

Yeah...

1. Flippers make more than minimum wage doing what they do. The notion of the unwitting flipper that is working for minimum wage is a fallacy perpetrated on the boards by people who don't like the fact that flippers look at comics as commodities and their volume sales model drive down average sale price per comic.

 

Uh, I have posted many soliloquies on here talking about how comics ACT LIKE AND ARE commodities(as opposed to the more often analogy of stocks). Also, the people you are talking to/about, are veteran comic flippers. When inexperienced people are rushing in and making money with out knowledge and skill, its a sign of a bubble, easy money, too many people making the same 'plays' which leads to "MARGIN COMPRESSION".

 

"Volume" is not a sales model. It's speculators selling to other speculators in a bubble. The people warning others arent worried about you stealing their margin fella. They, as already stated, are selling low volume high margin. They are just trying to prevent others from getting burned, and were here in the 90s bubble enough to know the harm bubbles do to the hobby.

 

2. Bubble burst is in the offing, probably in a year. Smart, conservative move is to sell a portion of your comics to cover cost in case it bursts sooner. Then let the remaining copies sit till you heart is content or the right price comes along. Either way, since you cover costs, you won't be left at a loss.

 

Profit taking to cover initial costs has been talked to death in these bubble debates. Everyone knows, and the only experienced people not doing it, are those who are buying their books with past profits and have no initial costs.

 

3. I need to stop posting. This is my last post. This is taking too much time today and I am compulsive about stuff. So I will stfu. Going back with all of the other speculator/flippers to lurker mode. Said my peace.

 

Think of it this way. The veterans sellers, we are like Rick Grimes et al. The lurkers on here, are like a writhing mass of mindless "walkers". As you guys start to come through the fence of our jail....we decide it's time to move on

 

 

Now out. Will continue to scan the boards for a juicy post that leads to a hidden gem. Just like the Helheim one yesterday on Oni Press online sales of the variants.

 

which is why rumors of illumanti-esque groups start to form, as less and less of these are made public for the zombie masses to tear to pieces.

 

Thanks to that poster I grabbed both variants. So did my girlfriend. So did her sister. So did my Mom.

 

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=shoe%20shine%20boy%20giving%20stock%20tips&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.44770516,d.b2I&fp=55b5edd98a58d799&biw=1920&bih=960&pf=p&pdl=300

 

you sure about that year prediction?? As long as interests rates stay so low and debt is so cheap, who knows. Your story is a great canary in the coal mine though, if interest rates were at historical averages, i am sure it would already have popped.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2013 by CBT

[ItsJustRyan]

I should use the word "soliloquies" more...

 

[Taco]

I don't think you can view it as a minimum wage job. We do it because we like comic books. Most of us know the research, the FOC, and what books will see a spike in price. I'm sure most of us spend more time on eBay and the forum than we do actually reading the things.

I'm 24 years old. I sometimes go in my lab to do research and I sometimes go to class to take notes, but mostly I just sit on here speculating. I would probably just be watching The Office or Always Sunny over and over again on Netflix if I wasn't. Recently I've had books that brought me $30+ (PP #9, Black Beetle #0), books that barely covered costs, and books I lost money on (Swamp Thing!!!). So any profit is good profit. It is a hobby.

I keep my speculating money in a separate account from my regular money (ING Direct/Captial One 360). And no matter what the profits I make per month I always put 10% back in the industry for personal collection. This could be TPB, toys, or something I normally wouldn't buy but just to keep the cycle going.

But I did make enough money last month to buy an Ikea PS couch. And I even had enough profit to get it shipped to me instead of carrying it up to my 3rd floor apartment myself.

[Magneto]

Sometimes, talking to CBT makes me feel like this kid...

 

 

But, I still <3 ya

 

 

[Mike's Rack]

I don't think you can view it as a minimum wage job. We do it because we like comic books. Most of us know the research, the FOC, and what books will see a spike in price. I'm sure most of us spend more time on eBay and the forum than we do actually reading the things.

I'm 24 years old. I sometimes go in my lab to do research and I sometimes go to class to take notes, but mostly I just sit on here speculating. I would probably just be watching The Office or Always Sunny over and over again on Netflix if I wasn't. Recently I've had books that brought me $30+ (PP #9, Black Beetle #0), books that barely covered costs, and books I lost money on (Swamp Thing!!!). So any profit is good profit. It is a hobby.

I keep my speculating money in a separate account from my regular money (ING Direct/Captial One 360). And no matter what the profits I make per month I always put 10% back in the industry for personal collection. This could be TPB, toys, or something I normally wouldn't buy but just to keep the cycle going.

But I did make enough money last month to buy an Ikea PS couch. And I even had enough profit to get it shipped to me instead of carrying it up to my 3rd floor apartment myself.

This is reasonable and I don't think it concerns anyone. We all sell to fund our personal collections.

[Mike's Rack]

Aren't you the one with the podcast?

 

Touché

 

 

I'm stealing this, it's the funniest thing I've seen in a while. I've had bruises on my arches from those damn things!

[Mashed Potatoes-migration]

This is my last last post. Instead of continuing the debate with counter points, it is a good place to end my side now since everybody, including myself is firmly entrenched in their position. I just want to thank you all for being respectful during this thread as I have a wildly unpopular view and position that runs contrary to those on the boards.

 

I am part of an group of speculators/flippers that communicate daily through our own private yahoo chat board. Many of the members are seasoned vets that have been doing this since the 90s (in comic books and other collectibles). One guy was talking about his investments in Pet Rocks, so some go back to the 70s. Math cannot dispute that they / we are making a good chunk of coin and not really spending all that much time doing so, which runs counter to a lot of the posts here claiming that flippers are minimum wage walking zombies. Anyways, I was warned not to come on these boards by the group to offer a contrarian view of our profit/work load reality. You have my sincere gratitude for keeping the conversation civil.

 

I wish you all the best.

[ItsJustRyan]

[krighton]

We have had a visit by the Illuminati

[jjoseph7772]

Oh god not another secret community of flippers

I wonder where they get their information....hmmmm

[CBT]

I'm stealing this, it's the funniest thing I've seen in a while. I've had bruises on my arches from those damn things!

 

my wife references "2s" as the measure of pain when stepping on something.

 

"That's almost as bad as a stepping on a 2"

 

[CBT]

spoiler tags for the argument win, its like having two threads in one!

 

 

 

blah blah blah unjustified arrogance.....

blah blah blah, delusions of grandeur.

 

a.) tell viper i say hi

b.) we are a part of a community of flippers that talk every day, its called the CGC forums. Anything else i am a part of well, shhhhhhh

c.) if you want to see what you are making, keep a spread sheet, track shipping and price in, selling price and shipping out, and subtract 11% for ebay and paypal (going up now too). How many hours you decide to say you spend on it, that's your call. I dont care whether people are making minimum wage or not, i know viper was barely passing it and lying his face off about lots of stuff, some of which i proved. But mass volume, low margins, is a warning sign. Just like buying off tips from websites and forums, is another one. If you are so cognizant of comics being a commodity, I hope you are as aware of the dangers of commodities investing when speculation is the main source of value.

d.) if your mom and sister are buying flood of blood, then that's a great reason that everyone else should be selling them ALL, as fast as they can.

 

There is no one here being told "contrary" things by lurkers. It's the lurkers that get all worked up, when they pop-up to try and brag, and dont get the response they hoped for.

 

 

 

 

here's a story related comment, we know who the antagonists are, and they leave gruesome results....but what's the source of their power? its clearly more than physical given their stature, that's as least spoily as i can put it.

Edited April 5, 2013 by CBT

[ItsJustRyan]

Tater... don't run off. After a while you get to the apathy, then you can truly win every debate