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Level of proof required for pedigree or file copy designation

Started by pjthib,

22 posts in this topic

pjthib

pjthib

Posted
Posted

Hi,

 

I apologize in advance since I'm sure this has been covered but I looked for a while and could find anything.

 

I was considering bidding on some books being sold as Harvey file copies on e-bay. I sent an inquiry to Diamond about the seller and they confirmed that he has been known to sell legitimate Harvey file copies. Unfortunately, these books have no certificates or anything like that.

 

Does anyone have any idea what chance I would have of getting "File Copy" on the label if I won these books and submitted them for slabbing?

 

CGC states the following in their FAQ: "For a book to receive Pedigree designation, CGC must have a copy of the certificate OR a letter stating that you own the book(s), who you purchased the books from, and your signature."

 

This seems too easy but maybe that's all there is to it.

 

Thanks.

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greggy

greggy

Posted
Posted

For all the ones that I've submitted either as a Gold Key or Harvey file copy, all I did was note it with the submission form with no other proof. In every case, it was noted on the label. I have no idea what if CGC does with them. I know that file copies generally exhibit some edge yellowing/tanning on these books so this could be one of the indicators that take into consideration! 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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PedigreeMan

PedigreeMan

Posted
Posted
For all the ones that I've submitted either as a Gold Key or Harvey file copy, all I did was note it with the submission form with no other proof. In every case, it was noted on the label. I have no idea what if CGC does with them. I know that file copies generally exhibit some edge yellowing/tanning on these books so this could be one of the indicators that take into consideration! 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

That is odd ... I thought CGC was more dilligent about tracking these things. In the absence of true distinct markings (i.e. a Mile High code, a Cosmic Aeroplane checkmark, a Reilly stamp, a Larson distributor mark, etc.) I thought they always tried to establish a book's provenance. For example, didn't Redhook have to jump through some hoops to get his last batch of Green Rivers labelled as such?

 

Maybe they're just more lenient on pseudo-pedigrees file copies? confused-smiley-013.gif

 

Alan

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tth2

tth2

Posted
Posted
For all the ones that I've submitted either as a Gold Key or Harvey file copy, all I did was note it with the submission form with no other proof. In every case, it was noted on the label. I have no idea what if CGC does with them. I know that file copies generally exhibit some edge yellowing/tanning on these books so this could be one of the indicators that take into consideration! 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

That is odd ... I thought CGC was more dilligent about tracking these things. In the absence of true distinct markings (i.e. a Mile High code, a Cosmic Aeroplane checkmark, a Reilly stamp, a Larson distributor mark, etc.) I thought they always tried to establish a book's provenance. For example, didn't Redhook have to jump through some hoops to get his last batch of Green Rivers labelled as such?

 

Maybe they're just more lenient on pseudo-pedigrees file copies? confused-smiley-013.gif

 

Alan

 

This is the kind of thread that I wish Steve B or someone else from CGC would answer, along with why they recognize some pedigrees as pedigrees and others not, so we wouldn't have to keep guessing. I think they keep some kind of master list of issues that they believe are in each pedigree, know the general hallmarks of certain pedigrees, and also know who to call to verify if necessary. But again, I'm just kind of guessing based on my own experience with them and anecdotal stories from other collectors/dealers.

 

For the record, I can say that they seem to be EXTREMELY diligent if their records show that the pedigree issues you're submitting duplicate issues from the same pedigree that they have already certified, even if you have certifications tracking provenance, and then it seems to come down to whether they can confirm that there were multiple issues from the same pedigree. For instance, I submitted a bunch of raw Western Penn DDs, and CGC told me that there were already slabbed Western Penn copies of many of those same issues, and their Western Penn master list didn't show dupes of those copies. So they talked with the guy who discovered the pedigree and were able to confirm that there were indeed duplicates, and so they gave those books Western Penn pedigree status. Unfortunately, the same thing happened with some Winnipeg TOSs that I submitted, with original certificates from Dan Greenhalgh, and I guess CGC couldn't get a hold of Dan so they didn't give the books Winnipeg pedigree status. It bugs me, not because I care about Winnipeg pedigree status, since to me that is definitely one of the lesser pedigrees, but because I KNOW these books were from the Winnipeg collection, since I bought them from SNE as Winnipeg books right after their first Winnipeg catalog came out. Thanks a lot, Dan!!!

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Red Hook

Red Hook

Posted
Posted

I was actually quite impressed that CGC wouldn't just accept my word on the 12 Green Rivers I submitted last March.......it was the first time I had submitted a pedigree book for grading.

 

CGC contacted me and asked for either receipts, contact info for the sellers, auctions numbers on EBAY.....which I scrambled around and was able to provide......all this despite the fact that physically, these were fairly obviously GRs.....with white pages and red date stamps.

 

Of course someone could phoney up even that, s'long as you have a book with white pages, and a rubber stamp.....so I was really pleased that the boys in Sarasota made me do a little work.

 

Now, when I buy a raw GR, I keep a screen shot of the auction page and also my paypal receipts. When I purchased a couple from Greggy, he was nice enough to include a sheet with as much info as he could remember from the purchase which had taken place about 10 years before.

 

When I get around to my next batch....I will include photocopies of all my info along with the shipment.

 

Hope that helps.

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sfilosa

sfilosa

Posted
Posted

Regarding Harvey File copies.

 

1) They usually have great colors and gloss

2) They usually have below average page quality.

 

I would expect that CGC DOES NOT require as much proof on these books, simply because there are Multiple copies of these books and in general these are not thought of as PREMIUM PEDIGREES.

 

As a matter of fact, I have four very nice Harvey File Copies that haven't be submitted and I'm not sure I want the "FILE COPY" designation, when I do have these certified.

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sborock

sborock

Posted
Posted
For all the ones that I've submitted either as a Gold Key or Harvey file copy, all I did was note it with the submission form with no other proof. In every case, it was noted on the label. I have no idea what if CGC does with them. I know that file copies generally exhibit some edge yellowing/tanning on these books so this could be one of the indicators that take into consideration! 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

That is odd ... I thought CGC was more dilligent about tracking these things. In the absence of true distinct markings (i.e. a Mile High code, a Cosmic Aeroplane checkmark, a Reilly stamp, a Larson distributor mark, etc.) I thought they always tried to establish a book's provenance. For example, didn't Redhook have to jump through some hoops to get his last batch of Green Rivers labelled as such?

 

Maybe they're just more lenient on <s>pseudo-pedigrees</s> file copies? confused-smiley-013.gif

 

Alan

 

This is the kind of thread that I wish Steve B or someone else from CGC would answer, along with why they recognize some pedigrees as pedigrees and others not, so we wouldn't have to keep guessing. I think they keep some kind of master list of issues that they believe are in each pedigree, know the general hallmarks of certain pedigrees, and also know who to call to verify if necessary. But again, I'm just kind of guessing based on my own experience with them and anecdotal stories from other collectors/dealers.

 

For the record, I can say that they seem to be EXTREMELY diligent if their records show that the pedigree issues you're submitting duplicate issues from the same pedigree that they have already certified, even if you have certifications tracking provenance, and then it seems to come down to whether they can confirm that there were multiple issues from the same pedigree. For instance, I submitted a bunch of raw Western Penn DDs, and CGC told me that there were already slabbed Western Penn copies of many of those same issues, and their Western Penn master list didn't show dupes of those copies. So they talked with the guy who discovered the pedigree and were able to confirm that there were indeed duplicates, and so they gave those books Western Penn pedigree status. Unfortunately, the same thing happened with some Winnipeg TOSs that I submitted, with original certificates from Dan Greenhalgh, and I guess CGC couldn't get a hold of Dan so they didn't give the books Winnipeg pedigree status. It bugs me, not because I care about Winnipeg pedigree status, since to me that is definitely one of the lesser pedigrees, but because I KNOW these books were from the Winnipeg collection, since I bought them from SNE as Winnipeg books right after their first Winnipeg catalog came out. Thanks a lot, Dan!!!

 

I don't have time to write much today, but I will be glad to talk to people about this at the chat board dinner next week if anyone brings it up.

 

That said, we try VERY HARD to confirm pedigrees if we are not sure about the submitters designation. Remember, we have pedigree experts like West and Mark, not to mention that I have owned hundreds and seen thousands of pedigree's myself, and we can usually tell if a book is the pedigree or not just by examining at it grin.gif

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PedigreeMan

PedigreeMan

Posted
Posted
That said, we try VERY HARD to confirm pedigrees if we are not sure about the submitters designation. Remember, we have pedigree experts like West and Mark, not to mention that I have owned hundreds and seen thousands of pedigree's myself, and we can usually tell if a book is the pedigree or not just by examining at it grin.gif

 

Yeah, except for Salidas. blush.gifsorry.gif (Frank Blankis -- the Rodney Dangerfield of comic pedigrees....)

 

But seriously, Steve, is the level of checking the same for "File Copies" as it is for true pedigrees? The original poster of this thread seems to indicate it isn't ...?

 

Alan

 

:::edit to clean up nested quotes:::

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underthebigw

underthebigw

Posted
Posted
Hi,

 

I apologize in advance since I'm sure this has been covered but I looked for a while and could find anything.

 

I was considering bidding on some books being sold as Harvey file copies on e-bay. I sent an inquiry to Diamond about the seller and they confirmed that he has been known to sell legitimate Harvey file copies. Unfortunately, these books have no certificates or anything like that.

 

Does anyone have any idea what chance I would have of getting "File Copy" on the label if I won these books and submitted them for slabbing?

 

CGC states the following in their FAQ: "For a book to receive Pedigree designation, CGC must have a copy of the certificate OR a letter stating that you own the book(s), who you purchased the books from, and your signature."

 

This seems too easy but maybe that's all there is to it.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Stay away. Far Away. They're mine. All mine, I say. wink.gif

 

Seriously, what sfilosa said is accurate. I've only been collecting high grade Harvey's for a short while, but these are easily the most conpsicuous features. They were not stored well, and some even have minor moisture damage on otherwise beautiful books. The covers are killer, though, and would almost never been found in books in general circulation. Also, multiples do exist, although I don't know if Diamond has a list.

 

Send me a pm if you want to discuss them-I'd love to talk to another collector about them.

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