Conversation with a dealer...

[mrwoogieman]

I went into a nostalgia store a few weeks back. The place was packed to the rafters with every type of old toy, game and action figure imaginable, plus comics, magazines, etc. In one aisle was a display case filled with ... CGC'ed books! I was surprised to see them in a shop like this since it really looked like a flea market inside. The disconcerting thing was that the books that were slabbed were not very high grade sixties DC comics like Flash, Green Lantern, Superman, Superboy. It didn't make any sense that someone would pay to slab these books, but there they were...

[mrwoogieman]

Oh, forgot the name of the place, it really was a trip to see such an accumulation of old stuff...you name it, they had it!

 

The Land of Ooohs and Aaahs in Farmingdale, New York

[Foolkiller]

This is actually one of my favorite topics for discussion because I think I've had this conversation with lots of dealers in New Jersey. A lot of the ones I know very well have used CGC quite a bit and will sell a few pieces in the store, but mostly online because it's where their dollar can be maximized. At first, many displayed a resistence to CGC, and I remember arguing -- solely from a business perspecitve, that ignoring CGC was a mistake. There's nothing unethical about CGC at all so the only opposition is really a philosophical one: Comics are for reading not for just sinking a ton of money into and collecting.

 

But slowly, as many stores that you could realize large multiples for books in high grade they could barely sell at guide, the tide started to change. There's still a definite under current of resistence to CGC among LCSs. Most of these I've found don't grade all that accurately or don't have an abundance of high grade. They still want you to spend money buying "collectible comics" though.

 

I agree with tth... it's the logic that is problematic. You can't argue comics are an investment on the one hand but then say CGC is killing the market and turning it into this terrible greed driven place, but then ask customers to plunk down $350 for a comic book.

[deathlok]

Here in Los Angeles, I can think of close to a dozen local comic shops that do not have a single slabbed comic book.

 

Some of the owners scoff at CGC, and others just don't care for the price/wait/etc.

 

A lot of the owners deal mostly in the weekly moderns and don't bother with back issues. Nor do they find it cost effective to play the HG modern game.

 

I can't even think of a dozen comic shops in Los Angeles

 

Brave New World - SCV

Golden Apple - Melrose

Golden Apple - Westwood

Golden Apple - Northridge

Astounding - Burbank

Earth 2 - Encino

Hi-De-Ho - Santa Monica

Continental - Northridge

Mega City - Simi Valley

Hidden Fortress - Simi Valley

Comics & Fun - Van Nuys

House of Secrets - Burbank

 

and numerous other modern only comics shops.

[shadroch]

Suppose a store owner has a real nice run of FF10 thru 30,He selects the bet five for slabbing and puts the rest out. Someone comes in and asks for issue #16,and the store owner says I have a great copy being CGC'd,come back in 60 days.The person starts looking at the nice copy of issue #19,but is wondering whats wrong with it,that it too isn't being CGC'd.

Different scenerio: A regular client has been looking for a NM Defenders #1. Storeowner gets one in. Will the storeowner get the most money by selling to his regular client or by posting on ebay?

Most,if not all,LCSs have two different markets. One for their everyday clients who buy new books,supplies,and some back issues,and,the worldwide market of e-Bay for their HG material. Anyone who sells HG material soley thru a store these days is being foolish.

[Silver Surfer]

CGC has entered the market in a major way in some respects but in others, I doubt they'll ever gain a foothold or even be relevent to the majority of collectors.

 

Jim

 

Jim are you sure about that? I'd say they have already become relevant and they are just getting started. If you are in the market for HG SA stuff is there really any other way to go? I certainly want to know if I am buying a 9.4 vs. a 9.0. Moderns are a different story as the cost associated with buying them is a bit high right now.

[nearmint]

All I know is, if I had a LCS that sold CGC books, I'd visit it on a weekly basis. As it is, I buy all my slabbed books off eBay or dealer websites, and my trades off Amazon. I never go into my LCS anymore.

 

It seems to me that a successful LCS would cater to both types of buyer, the reader and the investor...and guys like me that do both.

[nearmint]

Oh, forgot the name of the place, it really was a trip to see such an accumulation of old stuff...you name it, they had it!

 

The Land of Ooohs and Aaahs in Farmingdale, New York

 

There used to be a shop with that same name in Fountain Valley, CA, run by a guy named John Fulce. He was a rather strange guy who published a book called "Seduction of the Innocent Revisited" through a vanity press. The book was pretty amusing, in that he'd reproduce panels with what he considered offensive material, but then black out the offensive part of the panel! KInd of defeated the purpose.

[Silver Surfer]

I agree. A LCS should be selling slabbs online to increase their revenue and at the same time getting the word out to the local community that they carry these. Sure they are going to need capital to stock up on this stuff but if they are not doing more sales online then they are probably missing the boat. I buy all my stuff online.

[Mr. Zipper]

CGC has entered the market in a major way in some respects but in others, I doubt they'll ever gain a foothold or even be relevent to the majority of collectors.

 

I'd say they have already become relevant and they are just getting started. If you are in the market for HG SA stuff is there really any other way to go? I certainly want to know if I am buying a 9.4 vs. a 9.0...

 

But understand that 95% of comic collectors are NOT into HG and will NEVER pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for old NM funnybooks. For the overwhelming majority of comic collectors, Fine is good enough. And to these collectors, CGC is an irrelevant annoyance that "just makes prices go up."

[awe4one]

Jim are you sure about that? I'd say they have already become relevant and they are just getting started. If you are in the market for HG SA stuff is there really any other way to go? I certainly want to know if I am buying a 9.4 vs. a 9.0. Moderns are a different story as the cost associated with buying them is a bit high right now.

 

Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly in my other post....

 

CGC collectors are a vast minority in the marketplace.

 

The bread and butter of a LCS is new releases augmented with the occasional back issue sale (if they stock them at all). The vast majority of owners that have back issue stock cater to customers that will spend maybe $20 max on back issues during a visit. These customers are not looking for 9.6s or 9.8s. They are looking for the nicest comics to fill their want lists. CGC doesn't come into play.

 

But let's say that a newbie has an epiphany and does buy a slab. What does he do with it now? Having slabs can be a pain in the [!@#%^&^]. He can't read it. It doesn't fit in a comic box unless he wants to go out and buy a completely new CGC box (and ever more CGC slabs to fill it up....a costly option). Hell, he might as well have bought a Treasury....

 

Also, the LCS back issue stock you're likely to find varies substantally in grade with the vast majority VF and below. This isn't a source for potential CGC slabs nor is their clientele likely to pay the premium prices associated with slabbed comics. Has nothing to do with an aversion to CGC....it just doesn't fit into their business model and likely won't any time soon.....

 

Being on these boards can warp one's appreciation of CGC and their influence with the majority of collectors in this hobby....

 

Jim

[Jeffreykli]

So that Amazing Spiderman #6 you have in the display case there for $450.00, you expect someone to buy that, take it home, and read it? How about this X-men # 95 that looks to be NM for $350.00...

 

Going back to the first example, I agree that the LCS dealer is being inconsistent, and even further, in his store, it sounds like CGC graded comics would enhance the store, not detract from it.

 

Most LCS today are of the business model that they sell new issues, and whatever doesn't sell becomes the store's back issue stock. Thus, they are modern only stores. They don't actively deal in large back issue sales, or buy large collections. It's a leaner business model than having thousands of back issues. Fine. For these stores, CGC graded comics probably should not be offered. If the occasional nice comic comes in, they should sell the graded comic on eBay to maximize their dollar.

 

But, there are still some stores which have both, like the store in question. They cater both to the new issue buyer and to the back issue buyer. These are the stores that have some HG stuff, and have a large back issue stock. For them, I would think that CGC comics would raise the store's profile. Why does a store even have wall stock, like the X-men or Spidey? To show off their nice books, and to keep customers coming back to check out their new stuff. If they had those books graded, then the $350 or $450 comic might make sense. Plus, if you can prove that you have HG stuff, (further validated by CGC, a third party grader), then people will keep coming back.

 

The store won't grade every comic, but that shouldn't detract from the store. If I pick up a book from a collection that wasn't sent to CGC, it just means that for some reason, it wasn't as nice as the others, or that a customer wanted it right away. Not every book will be in the same condition...some will be HG, and others will be not quite HG.

[deathlok]

Most comics shops that I have been to have nicer books on display in the store. The store obviously places some sort of premium on these books. So slabbing them in an effort to maintain the grade of the book would make sense.

 

If a customer wanted to see a book, I would have no qualms about them handling the slab. I would be hesitant of sombody handling a raw book. Now most of the back issue stock would not be a candidates for slabbing.

[Zanarkand]

Try to keep a little perspective regarding CGC. For example, except for around here, I have never met or talked to anyone who was a CGC fan. Aside from the two test runs I sent in myself, I do not know anyone personally who has ever submitted anything to CGC. I have five major sources for purchasing, including 3 LCSs, a dealer sans brick & mortar, and online, and except for online, I have never even seen a CGC book for sale.

 

Do I not get out much? No, my sources are perfectly sufficient for my collecting needs, and my collecting needs are perfectly met here in 100% rawland.

 

CGC fans remain an extreme minority in the collecting community. The only reason anyone's heard of slabbing at all is because of the number of national dealers who push the service because they get paid to. Plain and simple.

 

Everyone else could care less.

[drbanner]

Try to keep a little perspective regarding CGC. For example, except for around here, I have never met or talked to anyone who was a CGC fan. Aside from the two test runs I sent in myself, I do not know anyone personally who has ever submitted anything to CGC. I have five major sources for purchasing, including 3 LCSs, a dealer sans brick & mortar, and online, and except for online, I have never even seen a CGC book for sale.

 

Do I not get out much? No, my sources are perfectly sufficient for my collecting needs, and my collecting needs are perfectly met here in 100% rawland.

 

CGC fans remain an extreme minority in the collecting community. The only reason anyone's heard of slabbing at all is because of the number of national dealers who push the service because they get paid to. Plain and simple.

 

Everyone else could care less.

 

Hmmm...go to any big comic book convention and talk to the dealers and collectors that buy and sell comic books worth over $100 and I think you'll find a different perspective (and it's not just limited to high grade).

[Foolkiller]

In terms of LCSs I know of two Jersey that sell and will display if asked CGC books...

 

However, I agree with the sentiment that most stores don't CGC books. But, I've also found that most stores feel CGC is very, very strict.

 

Here in Philly, Fat Jack's basically only sells raw books and have sort of abandoned both customer service (if you ever want to meet the least friendly staff in America, drop by Philly sometime) and any notion that back issues are important to them -- even though they have a ton of them.

 

On the otherhand, Showcase comics in Philly just can't grade all that well. And they aquired a fairly substantial Silver Age collection -- but unfortunately it was mostly VF or less. I think they'd be very, very disappointed with the grades that they got back if they subbed books.

 

For the most part though, it's a completely different clientele who buys the bulk of their back issues from stores. They're less hung up on grading and finding that "perfect" book. Price is only an issue in so far as if they have enough money, and don't pay attention to (either because they don't want to or aren't capable of) the pricing the same way people here on the boards to. That's both a good thing and a bad thing.

[Kevin Boyd]

Try to keep a little perspective regarding CGC. For example, except for around here, I have never met or talked to anyone who was a CGC fan. Aside from the two test runs I sent in myself, I do not know anyone personally who has ever submitted anything to CGC. I have five major sources for purchasing, including 3 LCSs, a dealer sans brick & mortar, and online, and except for online, I have never even seen a CGC book for sale.

 

Do I not get out much? No, my sources are perfectly sufficient for my collecting needs, and my collecting needs are perfectly met here in 100% rawland.

 

CGC fans remain an extreme minority in the collecting community. The only reason anyone's heard of slabbing at all is because of the number of national dealers who push the service because they get paid to. Plain and simple.

 

Everyone else could care less.

 

CGC is only an active component of a handful of stores here in the Toronto area, and each has their own approach to CGC. For those stores that deal in older books, like Paradise and (I assume) Pendragon, CGC is vital for moving high grade books out into the wider marketplace. Where before they might have relied on obtaining books to fill the needs of their customers (which they still do), if they pick up a high grade book and have no specific customer in mind, then eBay allows them to move that book out into the wider community to find a buyer.

 

If CGC buyers are in the minority in the collecting community, then the majority of them have gravitated to Paradise as their LCS, because it is there that I run into collectors of all kinds that purchase slabbed books regularly on eBay and submit quite a large number of books (for a variety of reasons, but a lot are for resale purposes).

 

Other LCS, like the Silver Snail here in town, don't really use CGC because they aren't using older books (in any grade) as their lure to get customers into their brick and mortar store. Toys, novelty items, games, new issues and graphic novels are sufficient. They do have older books, but they are mostly to show that they are a fully rounded comic store, and don't want to exclude the back issue market entirely. It looks good for them to have a high priced Marvel or DC book from the Silver Age on their wall, even if they don't ever sell it. In fact they are confident enough as the market leader here in town to end up referring collectors specifically looking for high grade books to other stores (like Paradise).

 

I have spoken to the "I hate CGC" store owners before, and for most it is simply a case of the worlds "not colliding". Most, when they get more information on the service, agree that it is a useful tool for selling older books on eBay. They just don't have enough older books to warrant using the service or they don't sell anything on eBay. These are the stores where the grading savvy collectors ending up using as their "back-up" store because they move in from time to time and pick out whatever books they feel are high grade enough to submit to CGC. Are they ripping that LCS shop off? Not at all. The LCS owner gets paid and has chosen not to use CGC's services.

 

Sure, you run into the I like to READ 'em types. I just tell them that there's no law against cracking the slabs.

 

Personally, if I want to read an ASM 1, I prefer to read my Marvel Masterworks or my Essential Spidey volumes. I don't crack out my ASM 1 and curl up in a big chair.

[deathlok]

Honest reply Zanark.

 

I was refering to LCS using slabbed books as the bulk of their sales. I was thinking along the lines of them using slabbed books as eye candy. Rather than having a book on the wall in mylar, I would think it would be neat to have it a slab. The grade doesn't really matter depending on the book.

 

For example, what would you think if you went into an LCS and saw that they had on their wall the following slabbed books.

 

Incredible Hulk #3 CGC 7.0

X-men #3 CGC 6.0

Fantastic Four #11 CGC 6.5

ASM #14 CGC 7.5

Brave and the Bold #28 CGC 5.0

Superman #1 CGC 2.0

Showcase #4 CGC 2.5

etc.

 

It's neat just to have comic history on the wall. It really doesn't matter what the grades are. Obviously the Ahh factor increases with the grades, but most collectors are in awe of the book not the grade first.

[Foolkiller]

yeah but how many LCSs even have one of those books you're talking about on your list? The problem is, most LCSs don't -- because for many keys, you can justify getting the book slabbed... even if it's not NM.

[Fan4Fan]

Try to keep a little perspective regarding CGC. For example, except for around here, I have never met or talked to anyone who was a CGC fan. Aside from the two test runs I sent in myself, I do not know anyone personally who has ever submitted anything to CGC. I have five major sources for purchasing, including 3 LCSs, a dealer sans brick & mortar, and online, and except for online, I have never even seen a CGC book for sale.

 

Do I not get out much? No, my sources are perfectly sufficient for my collecting needs, and my collecting needs are perfectly met here in 100% rawland.

 

CGC fans remain an extreme minority in the collecting community. The only reason anyone's heard of slabbing at all is because of the number of national dealers who push the service because they get paid to. Plain and simple.

 

Everyone else could care less.

 

Hmmm...go to any big comic book convention and talk to the dealers and collectors that buy and sell comic books worth over $100 and I think you'll find a different perspective (and it's not just limited to high grade).

 

How many folks buy comics worth over $100 as a percentage of the total collecting community?

 

I have been at it for the past 6 years (after a 20-year hiatus) and haven't paid more than $29 for a book.

 

I'm not saying I'm typical (gosh, I hope I'm not ), but I don't think the over-$100 crowd is either (tho' monetarily they may comprise the majority of transaction values).

 

Thanks,

Fan4Fan