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Feb CLink Auction

Started by clarkkentdds,

342 posts in this topic

cheetah

cheetah

Posted
Posted
The CGC is punishing books too severely for defects that could be pressed out (and not enough for some other things, like transfer stains, foxing, and dust shadows). I'd be fine with a grading system that didn't deduct any points at all for lights folds that could obviously be pressed out. People who are pressing books are really just working a flawed grading system.

 

And yet the defect they punish the most is a stain. They kill a book for having a stain and pressing does diddly for.

 

Regardless, the problem with this thread is that those who don't like pressing seem predestined to assume that anyone else who doesn't feel the same is money hungry, a sheep following the flock, or just plain stoopid. Blah. If you think it hurts your investment, get off your high horse and have your own books pressed. That way you can reclaim you 'best book in the world' status and get on with things.

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mrmyst

mrmyst

Posted
Posted
The CGC is punishing books too severely for defects that could be pressed out (and not enough for some other things, like transfer stains, foxing, and dust shadows). I'd be fine with a grading system that didn't deduct any points at all for lights folds that could obviously be pressed out. People who are pressing books are really just working a flawed grading system.

 

And yet the defect they punish the most is a stain. They kill a book for having a stain and pressing does diddly for.

 

Regardless, the problem with this thread is that those who don't like pressing seem predestined to assume that anyone else who doesn't feel the same is money hungry, a sheep following the flock, or just plain stoopid. Blah. If you think it hurts your investment, get off your high horse and have your own books pressed. That way you can reclaim you 'best book in the world' status and get on with things.

^^
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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted
The CGC is punishing books too severely for defects that could be pressed out (and not enough for some other things, like transfer stains, foxing, and dust shadows). I'd be fine with a grading system that didn't deduct any points at all for lights folds that could obviously be pressed out. People who are pressing books are really just working a flawed grading system.

 

And yet the defect they punish the most is a stain. They kill a book for having a stain and pressing does diddly for.

 

You are supporting my argument that they do not hammer books with non colour breaking defects. A dime sized non colour breaking ding might knock a book from 9.4 to 9.2 or 9.0 but a dime sized stain can knock a book down to 7.0/7.5. all depends on the stain.

 

I can also understand why. It affects the paper more than a non colour breaking bend. A stain is a foreign substance embedded in the paper fibres.

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batman_fan

batman_fan

Posted
Posted
The CGC is punishing books too severely for defects that could be pressed out (and not enough for some other things, like transfer stains, foxing, and dust shadows). I'd be fine with a grading system that didn't deduct any points at all for lights folds that could obviously be pressed out. People who are pressing books are really just working a flawed grading system.

 

They actually don't punish those defects very hard at all.

 

If you had two books side by side, and both contained exactly the same defects and eye appeal but one book had a bend or a non colour breaking crease in it, would you consider both books equal? Of course not. The one with the additional defect would be an inferior book.

 

 

 

 

But Roy, what's your definition of not too hard? Even a 0.2 point deduction can be five figures or more.

 

But that's not a product of loose or strict grading, that's a product of what the market is willing to pay for those grades.

 

In other words, CGC didn't set the prices - only the grades. The market set the prices.

 

 

That's true, but it doesn't change what I said. A 0.2 change can be a huge sum of money.

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AJD

AJD

Posted
Posted
The CGC is punishing books too severely for defects that could be pressed out (and not enough for some other things, like transfer stains, foxing, and dust shadows). I'd be fine with a grading system that didn't deduct any points at all for lights folds that could obviously be pressed out. People who are pressing books are really just working a flawed grading system.

 

And yet the defect they punish the most is a stain. They kill a book for having a stain and pressing does diddly for.

 

Regardless, the problem with this thread is that those who don't like pressing seem predestined to assume that anyone else who doesn't feel the same is money hungry, a sheep following the flock, or just plain stoopid. Blah. If you think it hurts your investment, get off your high horse and have your own books pressed. That way you can reclaim you 'best book in the world' status and get on with things.

 

That's not really a fair assessment of the situation. There seems to be several schools of thought on the subject, including some folk whose curatorial sensibility is offended by pressing and who don't see the bottom line as the beginning and end of the issue. (For the record, I'm not one of those as far as pressing goes, but am in other areas, such as removing material to get from purple to blue.) The problem is that there's an assymetry in positions. The press for money people irrevocably changed the hobby to the detriment of those who find it distasteful. Telling them to press their own books only makes it worse. (Or so it seems to me.)

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cheetah

cheetah

Posted
Posted
The CGC is punishing books too severely for defects that could be pressed out (and not enough for some other things, like transfer stains, foxing, and dust shadows). I'd be fine with a grading system that didn't deduct any points at all for lights folds that could obviously be pressed out. People who are pressing books are really just working a flawed grading system.

 

And yet the defect they punish the most is a stain. They kill a book for having a stain and pressing does diddly for.

 

Regardless, the problem with this thread is that those who don't like pressing seem predestined to assume that anyone else who doesn't feel the same is money hungry, a sheep following the flock, or just plain stoopid. Blah. If you think it hurts your investment, get off your high horse and have your own books pressed. That way you can reclaim you 'best book in the world' status and get on with things.

 

That's not really a fair assessment of the situation. There seems to be several schools of thought on the subject, including some folk whose curatorial sensibility is offended by pressing and who don't see the bottom line as the beginning and end of the issue. (For the record, I'm not one of those as far as pressing goes, but am in other areas, such as removing material to get from purple to blue.) The problem is that there's an assymetry in positions. The press for money people irrevocably changed the hobby to the detriment of those who find it distasteful. Telling them to press their own books only makes it worse. (Or so it seems to me.)

 

No, I think it is fairly accurate for the unending litany of pressing threads that have littered the board over the years. The course of the argument inevitably ends up with vitriol at what a bunch of evil bastards everyone is who doesn't wet their panties at the thought of pressing a comic book. It belongs in Comics General.

 

And FWIW, the argument about 'curatorial sensibilities' is totally off base. Curators are most concerned about preservation and conservation and will do things to paper goods that would send the comic book community into a hysterical frenzy.

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jimjum12

jimjum12

Posted
Posted

.....all fields of collectibles have those who gravitate towards the best in the world.....I myself, enjoy watching their efforts and successes, as vicariously is as close as I'll ever get. Unfortunately, their is no simple solution to Clark's frustration. Ironically, this precarious balance is what fuels the vitality of the high end market. I hope he can come to terms in some fashion or another. For what it's worth....I would pay double for his 76 over the other 9.6 copy.....the color strike is simply optimal and unimprovable. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

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jimbo_707

jimbo_707

Posted
Posted

I'm not against pressing because it hurts my investment - I do buy high grade, but I only have a couple of "highest graded" examples, and I rarely sell books anyway. The last time I sold a book was in 2004, and that was at a break-even price. I'm against pressing because I try to take very good care of my books, and I'm appalled that people are willing to risk damaging books for the sake of profit. And make no mistake about it, some books are damaged by pressing. I also have concerns about the long-term effect of pressing on page quality - I'm worried that the exposure to heat could be a catalyst for deterioration. It's hard to imagine that it isn't causing some degradation.

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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted
The CGC is punishing books too severely for defects that could be pressed out (and not enough for some other things, like transfer stains, foxing, and dust shadows). I'd be fine with a grading system that didn't deduct any points at all for lights folds that could obviously be pressed out. People who are pressing books are really just working a flawed grading system.

 

They actually don't punish those defects very hard at all.

 

If you had two books side by side, and both contained exactly the same defects and eye appeal but one book had a bend or a non colour breaking crease in it, would you consider both books equal? Of course not. The one with the additional defect would be an inferior book.

 

 

 

 

But Roy, what's your definition of not too hard? Even a 0.2 point deduction can be five figures or more.

 

But that's not a product of loose or strict grading, that's a product of what the market is willing to pay for those grades.

 

In other words, CGC didn't set the prices - only the grades. The market set the prices.

 

 

That's true, but it doesn't change what I said. A 0.2 change can be a huge sum of money.

 

It doesn't change what you said but it's also not what we were discussing.

 

We were talking grades and not prices.

 

:foryou:

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batman_fan

batman_fan

Posted
Posted
The CGC is punishing books too severely for defects that could be pressed out (and not enough for some other things, like transfer stains, foxing, and dust shadows). I'd be fine with a grading system that didn't deduct any points at all for lights folds that could obviously be pressed out. People who are pressing books are really just working a flawed grading system.

 

They actually don't punish those defects very hard at all.

 

If you had two books side by side, and both contained exactly the same defects and eye appeal but one book had a bend or a non colour breaking crease in it, would you consider both books equal? Of course not. The one with the additional defect would be an inferior book.

 

 

 

 

But Roy, what's your definition of not too hard? Even a 0.2 point deduction can be five figures or more.

 

But that's not a product of loose or strict grading, that's a product of what the market is willing to pay for those grades.

 

In other words, CGC didn't set the prices - only the grades. The market set the prices.

 

 

That's true, but it doesn't change what I said. A 0.2 change can be a huge sum of money.

 

It doesn't change what you said but it's also not what we were discussing.

 

We were talking grades and not prices.

 

:foryou:

 

Actually you were saying CGC doesn't hammer for NCB and I was asking what your definition of "hammer" was because even a 0.2 change can be a very significant amount of money. (thumbs u

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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
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Actually you were saying CGC doesn't hammer for NCB and I was asking what your definition of "hammer" was because even a 0.2 change can be a very significant amount of money. (thumbs u

 

Right, so I was talking grades and you were talking prices.

 

 

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jimjum12

jimjum12

Posted
Posted

Actually you were saying CGC doesn't hammer for NCB and I was asking what your definition of "hammer" was because even a 0.2 change can be a very significant amount of money. (thumbs u

 

Right, so I was talking grades and you were talking prices.

 

 

....I think it's time for a Pizza break....which of youse is buying ? GOD BLESS....

 

-jimb0(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

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multicynic

multicynic

Posted
Posted

My feeling is that before everybody is through with things there will be multiple copies of all the highest grades of most comics.

 

Watch for increments of 9.6, 9.8 and 9.9 to appear at some point. 9.6 1/2, 9.8 3/4', 9.9 1/4. Stuff like that. Seems silly doesn't it?

 

You win some and you lose some if you chase the highest grade. And eventually everybody loses when more appear. It's a real life game of hot potato.

 

That's what I think.

Jack

 

 

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batman_fan

batman_fan

Posted
Posted

Actually you were saying CGC doesn't hammer for NCB and I was asking what your definition of "hammer" was because even a 0.2 change can be a very significant amount of money. (thumbs u

 

Right, so I was talking grades and you were talking prices.

 

 

No, I was asking you what your definition of hammer was and making the point that even a small delta is significant from a price/value/sales standpoint. You did not answer my question (which is your prerogative). :foryou:

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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted

Actually you were saying CGC doesn't hammer for NCB and I was asking what your definition of "hammer" was because even a 0.2 change can be a very significant amount of money. (thumbs u

 

Right, so I was talking grades and you were talking prices.

 

 

No, I was asking you what your definition of hammer was and making the point that even a small delta is significant from a price/value/sales standpoint.

 

I understand but the price really is irrelevant in the discussion. We were discussing whether CGC hammers pressable defects or not. Not why CGC might hammer them.

 

 

You did not answer my question (which is your prerogative). :foryou:

 

Although I didn't quote you I thought I answered it as thoroughly as I could both here:

 

If they're not punishing books much for those defects, how is it that people are getting such large bumps through pressing? Granted I'm sure the professional pressers are good at spotting books that are undergraded to begin with and then shamelessly taking full credit for the higher grades that come back after resubmission.

 

if you have an otherwise NM book with a severe wave through the entire book it might grade in the VF range. That book deserves to be punished in grade since the wave affects the entire book.

 

If you have an otherwise NM book with a tiny non colour breaking crease it might grade in the NM range. The wear may not affect the grade at all, so CGC is not punishing non colour breaking defects.

 

They are punishing the ones that are worth punishing - meaning the grading scale accounts for a wide range of defects, from large to small.

 

How would you grade them differently? Would you ignore the wave and non colour breaking wear altogether? That would defeat the entire purpose of having a grading scale.

 

 

...and here:

 

The CGC is punishing books too severely for defects that could be pressed out (and not enough for some other things, like transfer stains, foxing, and dust shadows). I'd be fine with a grading system that didn't deduct any points at all for lights folds that could obviously be pressed out. People who are pressing books are really just working a flawed grading system.

 

And yet the defect they punish the most is a stain. They kill a book for having a stain and pressing does diddly for.

 

You are supporting my argument that they do not hammer books with non colour breaking defects. A dime sized non colour breaking ding might knock a book from 9.4 to 9.2 or 9.0 but a dime sized stain can knock a book down to 7.0/7.5. all depends on the stain.

 

I can also understand why. It affects the paper more than a non colour breaking bend. A stain is a foreign substance embedded in the paper fibres.

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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted
I think CGCs inconsistency has a bigger impact than pressing but hey, that's just me.

 

I wouldn't say a larger impact but I would say it has a huge impact. Definitely.

 

 

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mrmyst

mrmyst

Posted
Posted

But, back to the auction. http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAuctions%2Fdefault%2Easp%3F%5FSORT%3DYES%26Focused%3D1%26f1%3Da%2EMaxBid%26ODire1%3DDESC%26f2%3Di%2ETitle%252C%2Bi%2EIssueNumber%26ODire2%3DASC%26f3%3Da%2ENoofbids%26ODire3%3DDESC%23Item%5F961208&id=961208

 

Bets on where it will go?

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mrmitchgro

mrmitchgro

Posted
Posted

 

That drek? Tree fiddy :sumo:

 

Or $110k, one of the two :shrug:

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Mmehdy

Mmehdy

Posted
Posted

Folks you had better wake up.....

 

8.5 to 9.6 is like hitting a GOLD MIND for that book. There are gonna be buyers who are gonna target deals like this....and a lot money is gonna be made. Is is right? is it wrong?....well if you buy the book with the intention of giving it a "face-lift it is not wrong to you when you pull the wheel barrel of money to the bank.

 

Just like the collectors who did not CGC grade there books, is it unfair to buy and then slab....change or get left behind.....

 

 

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