Bigger BA Key: ASM 121 or Batman 232?

[Maccai3]

we also need to establish "Ra's or Gwen" on a significant basis

 

Gwen was around for 8 years before

Ra's 42 years after

 

right, the context of the question is which is more historically significant.

 

We aren't speaking in length of time. We are trying to evaluate which event was more profound. It's like trying to debate over which war was more significant: World War I or World War II

 

WW2

[jjonahjameson1]

Everyone has a bias towards their favorite character/publisher. It's typical that a greater percentage would lean towards Marvel over DC based on the present and past trends in popularity/market. However, let's reflect back on the actual question:

 

Which is the more valuable and historically significant Bronze Age key:

 

Amazing Spider-Man 121?

 

or

 

Batman 232?

 

So let's take an unbiased approach to this question.The answer to valuable should be who ranks higher on the GPA. Historically significant is obviously which event holds greater meaning: a first appearance or a death.

 

Set aside your favorite issue for a moment and answer the question. One definitely has an edge over the other.

 

we also need to establish "Ra's or Gwen" on a significant basis

 

Gwen was around for 8 years before

Ra's 42 years after

 

Nah. Ra's has been around for centuries before Gwen was born.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

gwen- spideys true love, killed years ago. Cloned years ago.No real impact on the spidey universe. It was important then, not now.

 

ras- head of the league of assassins. Constant character in the batman universe, father of talia, talia is the mother to batmans son Damian. Still a character in use, major villain in batmans world.

 

pretty simple.

[mintcollector]

Sigh...

 

 

 

The value of the books in the OSPG is NOT what I am using to formulate my facts.

 

Except...Overstreets only marks the "keys" based on value, which has no bearing on importance.

 

Again the price issue has no reasoning. I was using ASM 129 as a top ten example to dispute your claims that ASM 121 is a more 'significant' key. If this is true then why isn't it in the top ten bronze age books? This becomes especially important when you are directly comparing it with ASM 121. This was the basis of reasoning.

 

Again (in case you missed it) Overstreets only marks the "keys" based on value, which has no bearing on importance.

 

Here are the "Overstreet Top 10 Bronze Keys," in order, from 10 years ago (2003):

 

Inc. Hulk 181

GS X-Men 1

X-Men 94

Star Wars 1 (35¢)

HOS 92

DC 100 page Super Spect 5

All Star Western 10

Vampirella Special HC

Cerebus 1

Vampirella 113

 

Please note:

 

1) The conspicuous lack of ASM 129 (or 121). 129 also wasn't on the list at least as recently as 2007. Should either have been? Yes? Why were they not? These books were more valuable.

 

2) More importantly, the lack of "key-ness" of at least half of this list. Go ahead--try to argue that Vampirella Special HC or Vampirella 113 (which is not even a Bronze book--it came out in 1988. So much for using "Overstreets says so" as a basis for "fact" vs. "opinion.") are "more key" than Vampirella # 1. More valuable than Vampi # 1--at the time? Yes. More important (i.e., "key?") Hell no.

 

As has been stated, this list is nearly irrelevant regarding "Bronze Age keys" because--since Overstreets is a price guide--it determines them by value alone.

 

DC 100 page Super Spectacular # 5 is _only_ "key" because someone figured out around 1990 that it was one fo the hardest 100 pagers to find. It's not important, or a "key"--it just got notice (and valuable) for being comparatively rare.

 

3) You really need to get over your mindset that first appearances are the only reason a comic book can be a "key."

 

In ASM 121, a major publisher killed off a major character, and in the next issue, the most popular superhero of the last 40 years killed (or...at best...allowed to die) his arch nemesis.

 

Batman's always been a vigilante--but Spider-Man? That storyline marked a sea change in mainstream comics, a loss of innocence that reverberated through not just Spider-Man, but mainstream comics as a whole throughout the entire decade that is still being felt today, everytime a publisher goes for a cheap sales grab by "killing" a character.

 

With all due respect, I think I answered your questions in full multiple times. Out of all that you have said I take issue with this the most; ONLY because it isn't a rehash of something you said in this or a previous thread:

 

"3) You really need to get over your mindset that first appearances are the only reason a comic book can be a "key."

 

Could you please state where I have ever stated this or on what basis you have to prove this point?

 

Actually, I believe that one of the most undervalued books at present time is Iron Man #1 (even with the run up of prices). This is HARDLY a first appearance. In fact, the only 'first' in this title is the fact that it is a first issue.

 

I know of several new collectors who are coming into the hobby with their eyes on this book alone. In high grade I think it will continue to rise slowly and moderately, especially now that Iron Man has become a first tier character in the Marvel universe, thanks in part due to the popularity of the movies.

 

I also think that IM/Sub-Mariner #1 is also undervalued. Is this a first appearance? No.My next picks would go to DC titles, as they have not seen the mass price increases like most Marvel issues have; overall. I do like HOS 92 (it is a first appearance). Look at how many issues are graded at 9.4 or above and you will see why.

 

In the interest of full disclosure, I recently bought a Bats 232 in CGC 9.6. Am I biased, yes. Do I love Batman more than Spider-Man? Yes.

 

 

[rjpb]

Ra's Al Ghul is a semi major Batman character. He's not one of the "big 5": Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Catwoman or Two-Face.

 

i'd say Ra's is absolutely in the "big 5", more so than Penguin.

 

+1 Ra's is the #2 Batvillain now after the Joker. Catwoman is basically just a booty call as a character, and the Penguin and Riddler are inconsequential. Two-Face was kind of revitalized with Hush, but is a bit player again.

 

Catwoman is way more than just an occasional romantic interest for Batman, and has sustained ongoing series for most of the last twenty years. She has manged to evolve beyond being a Batman Villain, and while the Joker is clearly the preeminent Batvillain, I'd venture that Catwoman is considered a more important player in the Batman chronology than Ra's to most Batman fans of all generations.

 

The difficulty of rating the "importance" of supporting characters is that it is going to shift depending on the demographic, especially for such universally recognized characters like Batman and Spider-man with generations of cultural impact.

 

There are those that largely know the characters through movies and television, but have limited or no familiarity with the comics, but nonetheless would consider themselves fan of the characters, then there are those who were at one point readers and collectors of the comics, but don't keep up on what's currently happening with the characters, and another group who may buy all the character's titles currently, but is not entirely familiar with the long histories and continuities, and finally the hard core fan who is well versed in all aspects of the character, but still may have a bias towards one era or interpretation over another.

 

Heck, there are those who would deny the importance of Bat-mite in the Batman mythos - the fools!

[Maccai3]

Ra's Al Ghul is a semi major Batman character. He's not one of the "big 5": Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Catwoman or Two-Face.

 

i'd say Ra's is absolutely in the "big 5", more so than Penguin.

 

+1 Ra's is the #2 Batvillain now after the Joker. Catwoman is basically just a booty call as a character, and the Penguin and Riddler are inconsequential. Two-Face was kind of revitalized with Hush, but is a bit player again.

 

Catwoman is way more than just an occasional romantic interest for Batman, and has sustained ongoing series for most of the last twenty years. She has manged to evolve beyond being a Batman Villain, and while the Joker is clearly the preeminent Batvillain, I'd venture that Catwoman is considered a more important player in the Batman chronology than Ra's to most Batman fans of all generations.

 

The difficulty of rating the "importance" of supporting characters is that it is going to shift depending on the demographic, especially for such universally recognized characters like Batman and Spider-man with generations of cultural impact.

 

There are those that largely know the characters through movies and television, but have limited or no familiarity with the comics, but nonetheless would consider themselves fan of the characters, then there are those who were at one point readers and collectors of the comics, but don't keep up on what's currently happening with the characters, and another group who may buy all the character's titles currently, but is not entirely familiar with the long histories and continuities, and finally the hard core fan who is well versed in all aspects of the character, but still may have a bias towards one era or interpretation over another.

 

Heck, there are those who would deny the importance of Bat-mite in the Batman mythos - the fools!

 

Ra's added more to the Batman universe for me though, Talia, Damian, Lazarus Pits......erm, Ubu.

 

 

[Ghostman-migration]

I also think that IM/Sub-Mariner #1 is also undervalued.

 

[kidcolt]

Growing up I never really had comics available to me. I lived in a tiny community of 500-800 people and we only had 2 stores, 1 that sold any magazines at all. We could get Archie and Richie Rich digest. My introduction to Spiderman was the 70's cartoon where I came to love the Rhino, Electro and the Goblin. Batman was introduced to me through the show BAM*#!POW so The Joker, Penguin, Riddler and Catwoman were key villians. I will always have a soft spot for the classic rogues gallery for both of these characters.

 

I started reading and collecting real comics in the early 90's so characters like Venom, Punisher and Ra's were starting to get popular. To me Gwen really has no importance at all to the Spiderman run however Ra's do have importance. He is still a popular with many connections and influences to the cureent day title.

 

Importance as of today for me would be the Batman issue. Back in the day the Spiderman was popular due to the shock factor of killing a beloved character which was a big deal. In todays comics killing off characters and bringing them back is an everyday thing.

[jools&jim]

 

It may not have been intended this way, and certainly there was no hype leading up to its release (as there would be today), but ASM #121 is probably at least partially to blame for the whole "event" driven storytelling approach of the modern era -- not just character deaths, for which it is obviously an antecedent, but also, more generally, wholesale overhauls of established continuity, the "everything you know is a lie" school of revisionism, and any other storyline or story gimmick intended to provoke a strong response (positive or negative) amongst hard-core fans by jerking one rug or another out from beneath them.

 

If the reminiscences of Romita, Conway, et al., are to be believed, nobody associated with the death of Gwen had any idea that it would cause such an uproar back in the early '70s. Now, "causing an uproar" is something every publisher dreams about, but has a much harder time achieving...

 

 

[Larryw7]

I love Batman, Neal Adams, and Ras Al Ghul, but I have to go with ASM 121 for sentimental reasons. I purchased both of these books off the newstand as a kid, and the Spidey definitely made a much more lasting impression. But the cover to 232 is cooler. I thought Ras was supposed to be Dracula the first time I saw it as as a five year old kid! ::

[bronze johnny]

Both covers would definitely capture the interest of someone looking through the newsstand racks.

[BarryAllen]

Bats 232, done and done.

[Gatsby77]

Noting last night's Comiclink auction, which featured dueling 9.6 copies of ASM 121 and Batman 232 going head to head.

 

ASM 121 (ow to white): 18 bids, sold for $2,255.

 

Batman 232 (white): 27 bids, sold for $912.

[Maccai3]

Noting last night's Comiclink auction, which featured dueling 9.6 copies of ASM 121 and Batman 232 going head to head.

 

ASM 121 (ow to white): 18 bids, sold for $2,255.

 

Batman 232 (white): 27 bids, sold for $912.

 

means nothing without print run figures really....maybe they printed more Bats 232's

[scooter99]

Noting last night's Comiclink auction, which featured dueling 9.6 copies of ASM 121 and Batman 232 going head to head.

 

ASM 121 (ow to white): 18 bids, sold for $2,255.

 

Batman 232 (white): 27 bids, sold for $912.

 

The ASM was an old label with a nice wrap. I thought the Bats sold for a strong price considering the miswrap.

[Gatsby77]

Noting last night's Comiclink auction, which featured dueling 9.6 copies of ASM 121 and Batman 232 going head to head.

 

ASM 121 (ow to white): 18 bids, sold for $2,255.

 

Batman 232 (white): 27 bids, sold for $912.

 

means nothing without print run figures really....maybe they printed more Bats 232's

 

Umm...no. ASM was definitely out-selling Batman in the early-mid 1970s. In fact, Batman print runs were middle-of-the-road until about 1988 (with the death of Robin) and then the hype of the 1989 movie.

 

For a straight up CGC comparison, there are 110 copies of ASM 121 in 9.6 vs. only 68 copies of Batman 232 in 9.6. The latter is definitely harder to find, both in absolute terms and in a "high grade" basis.

[mintcollector]

Noting last night's Comiclink auction, which featured dueling 9.6 copies of ASM 121 and Batman 232 going head to head.

 

ASM 121 (ow to white): 18 bids, sold for $2,255.

 

Batman 232 (white): 27 bids, sold for $912.

 

ASM had the higher print run. However, don't forget the speculation factor. What is driving demand for Batman right now? ASM is entering a speculative period. Bad time to buy ASM 121, much like IM 55 or Walking Dead 1.

[Crimebuster]

Noting last night's Comiclink auction, which featured dueling 9.6 copies of ASM 121 and Batman 232 going head to head.

 

ASM 121 (ow to white): 18 bids, sold for $2,255.

 

Batman 232 (white): 27 bids, sold for $912.

 

What is driving demand for Batman right now? .

 

 

Based on those numbers, apparently nothing.

[conditionfreak]

Noting last night's Comiclink auction, which featured dueling 9.6 copies of ASM 121 and Batman 232 going head to head.

 

ASM 121 (ow to white): 18 bids, sold for $2,255.

 

Batman 232 (white): 27 bids, sold for $912.

 

Regardless of whatever caveats one puts into the equation. This should settle this debate immediately.

 

However, collectors are fickle and it could change in a heartbeat. Well, maybe not a heartbeat. But in a short time. A storyline, a movie, or even an awesome toy.

 

For that's how we roll.

 

One disclaimer I might add, is that each collector likes what he likes. That is why a Batman #227 is cherished by some, and not even on the radar by other collectors.

[Gatsby77]

Shall I also note that this week's auction also featured an Amazing Spider-Man # 129 in CGC 9.6 (off-white to white) that sold for $1,730?

 

Since I grew up in the 1980s when the Punisher was at his peak popularity, for me ASM 129 is more "key" than ASM 121.

 

But two nights ago, with the comparable books ending minutes apart, collectors paid $500 more for 121 than 129. It at least proves it's in the same category of "key."