How To Seperate late Golden vs early Silver for 6 DC titles....please help.

[FRANK_THE_TANK-migration]

Hi,

Not sure if it is a collector’s bug or what it is but I have a real problem to decide what is «silver» and what «golden» age of books is in the world of DC in the 50’s and would love it if someone have input.

 

I know many consider Showcase#4(Sept 1956) the first “silver”. Some claim that Tec 225(1955) is also silver. Apart from that I have read several treads about this without knowing what to think. Jimmy Olson #1 came in 1954 and is that Golden Age(sure seems silver to me)?

 

Obviously I understand that Showcase 4 and some of the other DC’s; followed by Marvel’s in the early 60’s are very different than the earlier books from stories and covers but where do we draw the line?

 

To the point: I am trying to find a “line” in my DC collecting habits where I don’t give up and Silver but don’t keep the Gold (ironic yes  ).

 

The books that are very late Golden Age are often cheap both in guide and real life. A lot of the pedigrees stop before this as well so you don’t have to pay massive premiums for Mile High and others.

 

I mainly look at the covers(Love DC late 50’s and early 60’s) and this is my thoughts:

 

Action Comics: #220 is Sept 1956. My take on this series is to start @ #180. The light blue cover makes it very “silver”. Also #182 seems silver. #179 has that “old” Golden look.

 

Batman: #102 is Sept 1956. My take on this series is that #76 (or possibly #79) is where I would like to start. I might be wrong but 100% sure that 83/84 is more silverish than Gold!

 

Detective Comics: #235 is Sept 1956. I’m lucky enough to own the #225 in 9.2 so I will not start later than that. My magic number here is #198 as it doesn’t seem so dramatic covers from there on out. Might be wrong so any input is good!

 

Superman: #108 is Sept 1956. Because of the “strong” colors I am getting a very strong “silver” feeling from #78 and onwards. I know we are speaking September 1952 here, but really: look at the covers! Smells of those nice late 50’s/early 60’s covers….

 

Wonder Woman: #85 is Sept 1956. This is where I agree on the Showcase #4 theory and will probably stick to #85+. What an amazing cover #85 is!

 

World’s Finest: #84 is Sept 1956. Tricky to decide this one. My early guess is #70…. And # 73 and #74 is so silver that it is shining.

 

I am not educated or trained in this so please correct me if I am wrong with my assumptions. Any feedback at all is welcome as I find it very tricky to finally draw the line once and for all.

 

F

 

[MusterMark]

I find this interesting.

Am intrigued as to what the other members will have to say.

 

[Primetime]

Showcase 4 has been the long time SA "line" but how about considering the start of the approval code stamp (March 1955) as a potential GA/SA division? Adventure Comics 210 (march 1955, 1st Krypto) is an excellent book to start with.

[Crimebuster]

I'm just getting into this era of DC myself, so I am only repeating what I have heard. But what I've been told is that Action #242 is considered by many fans to be the start of the Silver Age Superman stories, while Wonder Woman #105 is considered the start of the Silver Age Wonder Woman.

 

These are less to do with the date - both are late 50's - than the content of the stories. Action #242 is the first Brainiac and kicks off a period where all sorts of new characters and concepts were introduced in a short time to the Superman family of books. Wonder Woman #105 is a new updated version of her origin.

 

I can't really speak to the other titles, but I think the idea is that for many fans, the dividing line has more t do with the feel of the stories. From what little I've read, the late 50's stuff does have a different feel from the mid-50's stuff, which didn't change much with the advent of the code.

[jimjum12]

Showcase 4 has been the long time SA "line" but how about considering the start of the approval code stamp (March 1955) as a potential GA/SA division? Adventure Comics 210 (march 1955, 1st Krypto) is an excellent book to start with.

 

 

....this is where I'm at......nice and simple solution for me. If it has the CCA stamp it's SA, if it doesn't, it isn't. Also, I don't see anything wrong with going back a little further for favorite issues. Also, I don't consider a book to be GA unless it's 52 pages or more. Anything less falls into the Atom Age limbo. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[zzutak]

I'm with Jimbo -- pre-code vs post-code. Simple rules for simple minds.

[Silver]

I can never agree to that rule, it doesn't make sense if you look at the content of the books themselves. Superboy 51 is not silver age but 52 is?

[otherworldsj33]

Sometimes Jimbo's rules apply, sometimes not. I am of the school that a editorial direction/change, which is clearly evident, is what seperates the ages. So for me, it is on a series by series basis. Sometimes it can be over a number of issues, sometimes, probably more often then not, it is clear that in one particular issue, there is a major change of direction.

A example I can think of off the top of my head would be the Batman and Detective series. Clearly Detective #327 is the true first silver age issue of that series. Everything before, from issue 225, or the first code stamped issue, (take your pick) is either closer to the spirit of the atomic age, or simply doing the trends of the day. Not much creative juice went into either of those elements, (not to mention there were less pages in Detective devoted to Batman to develop a story even if they were so inclined to), nor was there any type of renewing or revamping of the Batman character...at all. Finally, there seemed to be no hint of any idea of doing something similiar like what was done to...the Flash in Showcase #4, Green Lantern In Showcase #22, Atom in #34, Hawkman in Brave and the Bold #34, and Green Arrow, and Black Canary later, to name a handful. Detective #327 is the first SA issue, same in the spirit as Showcase 4, 22, et al. In this spirit the silver age began, and in this vein, in large measure, Marvel comics took form. New cretive teams, new paradigms, new directions, new energy. Detective comics from #225, or the CCA stamp, to #326, was SA as far as the calender dates, but in what the SA represents, Detective Comics true SA lasted only about 6 years, from #327 to #393, or #395. What to call the issues from #225 to #326. I'm not sure. Atomic age for the earlier issues? Pre SA for the later issues? Batmans very own personal age, the GFA, for goofy age? I don't know what to name it, but it is not silver age Batman to me. Digressing, maybe Batman got the short end as far as duration for number of SA issues published, but I will take quality over quantity anytime.

With Batman comics it is tougher to pin down, partly because the editior had more leeway here, more pages to work a story. Issue 90 (first code) is no different in general content then the previous issues. With issue 92, the first Bat-Hound, it is yet more of the same, despite introducing a dog into the series. I know getting a dog in our family did not change our core outlooks on life, or our everyday schedules much! Numbers 93 to 121 is still more of the same stuff, with a twist or tweak here or there. Or maybe a single issue, or a short run of issues, that exhibit minor changes, but thats due mostly to DC trying to capitalize on a recent trend, not because there was any sincere or permanant change in editorial direction. Batwoman appears in #97, and Mr. Freeze is introduced in #121, but again, no major change, just the introduction of characters who have no major impact on the series, not at the time of introduction, anyway. A case could be made that starting with the early to mid 120's, the begining of a very slow change in direction was taking shape with the more frequent use of the Bat-family characters (copying the Superman line), culminating with #156, the issue when Robin "dies". I think a decent argument for that being the first true silver age issue, could be had. But there was no real consistancy for that 35-40 issue run, as to where the series was headed. No true unified vision. If not #156, then definitly (my view) #164 was the first real silver age issue. A definitive, noticable change in direction, something different, true to the silver age mantra of reinventing or revamping of a main character and/or series.

A whole 'nother discussion of what the seperation from GA to AA to SA is, could be opened. Thats for another post, or poster. Quickly, I will say that often times I look at the atomic age as bridging a gap from GA to SA. Sometimes it is a very long, blurry pgap, and sometimes, like the seperation between many of the SA and BA books, fairly clear. Sometimes I wonder if certain series even had a atomic age. They don't seem to display that spirit at all. Then again, many short DC series, less then 15, 12 issues or so, are clearly atomic age comics.

I find the Bronze age DC series much easier to recognize in this respect. See Batman 217, WW 179, Superman 233, JO 133, GL 76, Detective 393, or 395.

I think part of the confusion is that we in the hobby are stuck with a tradition of one size fits all approach with this. And this thinking is so entrenched at this point, that we have a hard time starting from a different premise. As a general way to define a era it is not a bad idea, kind of like short hand, and maybe it is useful if one is doing a voluminous price guide, but to say something like, that seeing the comics code authority stamp on the cover of a comic is the way to signify the seperation from GA to SA for each and every series is just to simplistic. No offense Jimbo, you know I love you, my eternal brother. But did every continent and people join the iron age at the same time in history?

Another reason is knowing the way DC did their creative business in those days. Each editor was firmly in charge of the line of books he was working with, having his own writers and artists, which they would not freely share with other editors. Ideas did not flow much from one editorial house to the other. That adds just another layer as to why one blanket date as being the seperation point between the GA and the SA for every single comic DC published is impractical.

Last, when one thinks of the American culture of the 1960's, does it start on January 1st, 1960, or in the spirit of what the '60's represent to most Americans, does it begin around 1965, or 1966, or 1967? And does it end, in spirit, and perception, on December 31st, 1969, or actually in 1972 or 1973? I know when I think of the DC silver age, I think of the general spirit of what it was. The genesis was ideas from editors, writers, and artists,looking to do something exciting and different. I realize that each comic series was distinct as to when those new ideas and directions took form, when they reached the printed comic page, and when that time came to a end. Regardless if it occured in one single issue, or evolved over time.

Being that the CCA did have a huge impact on the general direction and content, and specifically of what the books could and could not say or show, its not a bad rule of thumb as a fuzzy way to identify an age, just as historians do when making general statements about mankind. It is just much to general for me when it comes to a particular series. That being said, there still are worse ways (like price chages, or UPC codes on the cover) to draw a line between the ages.

[jimjum12]

Sometimes Jimbo's rules applies, sometimes not. I am of the school that a editorial direction/change, which is clearly evident, is what seperates the ages. So for me, it is on a series by series basis. Sometimes it can be over a number of issues, sometimes, probably more often then not, it is clear that in one particular issue, there is a major change of direction.

A example I can think of off the top of my head would be the Batman and Detective series. Clearly Detective #327 is the first silver age issue of that series.

With Batman, it is less clear. Issue 90 (first code) is no different in general content then the previous issues. With issue 92, the first Bat-Hound, it is yet more of the same, despite introducing a dog into the series. I know getting a dog in our family did not change our outlook on life, or our everyday schedules, much! Numbers 93 to 121 is still more of the same stuff, with a twist or tweak here or there, maybe a single issue, or a short run of issues, that exhibit minor changes, but due mostly to DC trying to capitalize on a recent trend, not because there was any sincere or permanant change in editorial direction. Batwoman appears in #97, and Mr. Freeze is introduced in #121, but again, no major change, just the introduction of characters who have no major impact on the series, not at that time, anyway. A case could be made that starting with the early to mid 120's, the begining of a very slow change in direction was taking shape with the more frequent use of the Bat Family characters, culminating with #156, the issue when Robin "dies". I think a decent argument for that being the first true, in spirit, silver age issue, could be had. But there was no real consistancy for that 35-40 issue run, as to where the series was headed. No true unified vision. And if not issue 156, then definitly (my view) #164 was the first real silver age issue. A definitive, noticable change in direction, something different, true to the silver age mantra of reinventing or revamping of a main character and/or series.

I find the Bronze age DC series much easier to recognize in this respect. See Batman 217, WW 179, Superman 233, JO 133, GL 76, Detective 393, or 395.

Being that the CCA did have a huge impact on the direction and content of the books, its not a bad rule of thumb, just much to general for me. That being said, there are worse ways to draw a line between the ages.

 

..... I certainly don't disagree with the gist of what you have here. My only problem with book by book demarcation is with the concept of what the definition of an "age" means to me. For example, we are now in the cyber age, and just because there are households and even entire countries without computers, it is still the cyber age.......it's a broad sweeping notion. If we accept the existence of an "age"....to me, it must begin somewhere. The age is more specific as to it's time frame. The nature of the age is something a little different. Certainly, editorial compliance to the censorship that helped spawn the Silver Age is integral, but not all material or titles required compliance to fit the parameters of the new censored marketplace. For simplicities sake I use the Code......although many ongoing DC hero titles were already in compliance. Batman and Superman issue 100's are convenient markers also. For me the age is a timeframe..... the content is just a condition....and an evolving one at that. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[otherworldsj33]

I changed my original post around.

[otherworldsj33]

Quote:"..... I certainly don't disagree with the gist of what you have here. My only problem with book by book demarcation is with the concept of what the definition of an "age" means to me. For example, we are now in the cyber age, and just because there are households and even entire countries without computers, it is still the cyber age.......it's a broad sweeping notion. If we accept the existence of an "age"....to me, it must begin somewhere. The age is more specific as to it's time frame. The nature of the age is something a little different."

 

Jimbo, I agree with the above. That is partly why I re did my post. It may be the concept of "an age" is to general for my taste when it comes to defining what issue for a particular series starts an age. As I said in my revamped post, the age is just shorthand for a general time period and what it means. Maybe I am to much of a comic geek, and can't reconcile the general begining of the SA with what I know about a specific series. Or maybe I just shouldn't be using the GA/SA/BA terms. Maybe I can't reconcile the nomenclature. Or maybe I should inquire if one is referring to the calender date SA, or the spiritual aspect. I have a much easier time seperating the PA/GA/AA, and then the SA to BA, and BA to CA, then the GA to AA to SA. And even most of the SA is fairly easy. Like Marvel. Or even Charlton. But some of the long running DC series, such as Superman, Action, Batman, Detective, and Wonder Woman, are so far off the mark in calender dates. In fact, as I am thinking about it, writing this, it might be that those series, and maybe a couple of more, are actually the exception to a rule, and I may be knocking myself out for something that is less complicated then I thought. Oh the joys of comics history and collecting.

[otherworldsj33]

Quote:"I mainly look at the covers(Love DC late 50’s and early 60’s) and this is my thoughts:

Action Comics: #220 is Sept 1956. My take on this series is to start @ #180. The light blue cover makes it very “silver”. Also #182 seems silver. #179 has that “old” Golden look."

 

*Based only on the look of the cover, #149 is a SA cvr. As is 152, 158, 182, and most from 194 up.*

 

 

 

 

Quote:"Batman: #102 is Sept 1956. My take on this series is that #76 (or possibly #79) is where I would like to start. I might be wrong but 100% sure that 83/84 is more silverish than Gold!"

 

*Batman 75, and 79 up.*

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:"Detective Comics: #235 is Sept 1956. I’m lucky enough to own the #225 in 9.2 so I will not start later than that. My magic number here is #198 as it doesn’t seem so dramatic covers from there on out. Might be wrong so any input is good!"

 

*Detective 192, 203 and 208 up.*

 

 

 

 

Quote:"Superman: #108 is Sept 1956. Because of the “strong” colors I am getting a very strong “silver” feeling from #78 and onwards. I know we are speaking September 1952 here, but really: look at the covers! Smells of those nice late 50’s/early 60’s covers…."

 

*Superman 106, 107 or 108 up*

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:"Wonder Woman: #85 is Sept 1956. This is where I agree on the Showcase #4 theory and will probably stick to #85+. What an amazing cover #85 is!"

 

*WW 78, 79, 84 up*

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:"World’s Finest: #84 is Sept 1956. Tricky to decide this one. My early guess is #70…. And # 73 and #74 is so silver that it is shining."

 

*WF 71 up, although 84 looks like classic true SA type cover more then 71 to 83, and so does 87, and from 88, 89 up there is no doubt.*

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:"I am not educated or trained in this so please correct me if I am wrong with my assumptions. Any feedback at all is welcome as I find it very tricky to finally draw the line once and for all."

 

 

 

 

 

Hope this helps. JS.

[frozentundraguy]

There was a similar discussion in late 2011, you might find of interest.

 

"When did the Silver Age begin, Title by title?"

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5369973&fpart=1

[G.A.tor]

I collect 1950s d c

 

For batman I separate at 102-103

For detective 229/230

For worlds finest 80/81

For Wonder Woman 80/81

 

But that's just me

[Silver]

Sometimes Jimbo's rules applies, sometimes not. I am of the school that a editorial direction/change, which is clearly evident, is what seperates the ages. So for me, it is on a series by series basis. Sometimes it can be over a number of issues, sometimes, probably more often then not, it is clear that in one particular issue, there is a major change of direction.

A example I can think of off the top of my head would be the Batman and Detective series. Clearly Detective #327 is the first silver age issue of that series.

With Batman, it is less clear. Issue 90 (first code) is no different in general content then the previous issues. With issue 92, the first Bat-Hound, it is yet more of the same, despite introducing a dog into the series. I know getting a dog in our family did not change our outlook on life, or our everyday schedules, much! Numbers 93 to 121 is still more of the same stuff, with a twist or tweak here or there, maybe a single issue, or a short run of issues, that exhibit minor changes, but due mostly to DC trying to capitalize on a recent trend, not because there was any sincere or permanant change in editorial direction. Batwoman appears in #97, and Mr. Freeze is introduced in #121, but again, no major change, just the introduction of characters who have no major impact on the series, not at that time, anyway. A case could be made that starting with the early to mid 120's, the begining of a very slow change in direction was taking shape with the more frequent use of the Bat Family characters, culminating with #156, the issue when Robin "dies". I think a decent argument for that being the first true, in spirit, silver age issue, could be had. But there was no real consistancy for that 35-40 issue run, as to where the series was headed. No true unified vision. And if not issue 156, then definitly (my view) #164 was the first real silver age issue. A definitive, noticable change in direction, something different, true to the silver age mantra of reinventing or revamping of a main character and/or series.

I find the Bronze age DC series much easier to recognize in this respect. See Batman 217, WW 179, Superman 233, JO 133, GL 76, Detective 393, or 395.

Being that the CCA did have a huge impact on the direction and content of the books, its not a bad rule of thumb, just much to general for me. That being said, there are worse ways to draw a line between the ages.

 

..... I certainly don't disagree with the gist of what you have here. My only problem with book by book demarcation is with the concept of what the definition of an "age" means to me. For example, we are now in the cyber age, and just because there are households and even entire countries without computers, it is still the cyber age.......it's a broad sweeping notion. If we accept the existence of an "age"....to me, it must begin somewhere. The age is more specific as to it's time frame. The nature of the age is something a little different. Certainly, editorial compliance to the censorship that helped spawn the Silver Age is integral, but not all material or titles required compliance to fit the parameters of the new censored marketplace. For simplicities sake I use the Code......although many ongoing DC hero titles were already in compliance. Batman and Superman issue 100's are convenient markers also. For me the age is a timeframe..... the content is just a condition....and an evolving one at that. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

That's why I don't go book by book. I think of B&B 28 as the event that started the silver age. B&B 28 influenced the creation of the FF, and we were officially in the silver age. Just my opinion.

 

So what was the stuff before B&B 28 and after golden age? 50's books

[Bomber-Bob]

I changed my original post around.

 

Sorry, if a single post takes up more than a full page, I pass.

[otherworldsj33]

I changed my original post around.

 

Sorry, if a single post takes up more than a full page, I pass.

 

Next one I'll do in word ballons.

[rjpb]

While events from a given title or publisher sometimes loom large enough for there to be broad agreement that this is where X Age begins ( at least for that publisher or title) most long running series have all sorts of milestones both big and small that signify the start and end of "eras" that have little to do with the traditional "ages" we ascribe to comic book chronology. The transition to the "new look" Batman in 1964 is one of these. While it may have brought the Batman titles more in line stylistically with the bulk of DC's superhero output at the time, it happens too late to be considered the beginning of the character's silver age. The late 50s introduction of a broader supporting cast with Bat-mite, Bat-Woman and the first Bat-girl, as goofy as those stories are, was clearly a silver age change in the title, just one that was jettisoned in the mid-sixties.

 

I'd worry less about what book signifies the start of that title's Silver Age, and just pick a signifier from somewhere in the mid-fifties that feels like a good starting point for a run to you, whether it's the drop to 32 pages, issue 100 or 200, introduction of the comics code, introduction of a new character or concept ( like Batman and Super-man team ups), an arbitrary cover date, or just a gut feel that a certain issue feels more "silver" than "gold" in appearance.

[FRANK_THE_TANK-migration]

Thanks a lot for the feedback. It's been real helpful and I will go over it title by title one more time.

[The-Collector]

Sometimes Jimbo's rules applies, sometimes not. I am of the school that a editorial direction/change, which is clearly evident, is what seperates the ages. So for me, it is on a series by series basis. Sometimes it can be over a number of issues, sometimes, probably more often then not, it is clear that in one particular issue, there is a major change of direction.

A example I can think of off the top of my head would be the Batman and Detective series. Clearly Detective #327 is the first silver age issue of that series.

With Batman, it is less clear. Issue 90 (first code) is no different in general content then the previous issues. With issue 92, the first Bat-Hound, it is yet more of the same, despite introducing a dog into the series. I know getting a dog in our family did not change our outlook on life, or our everyday schedules, much! Numbers 93 to 121 is still more of the same stuff, with a twist or tweak here or there, maybe a single issue, or a short run of issues, that exhibit minor changes, but due mostly to DC trying to capitalize on a recent trend, not because there was any sincere or permanant change in editorial direction. Batwoman appears in #97, and Mr. Freeze is introduced in #121, but again, no major change, just the introduction of characters who have no major impact on the series, not at that time, anyway. A case could be made that starting with the early to mid 120's, the begining of a very slow change in direction was taking shape with the more frequent use of the Bat Family characters, culminating with #156, the issue when Robin "dies". I think a decent argument for that being the first true, in spirit, silver age issue, could be had. But there was no real consistancy for that 35-40 issue run, as to where the series was headed. No true unified vision. And if not issue 156, then definitly (my view) #164 was the first real silver age issue. A definitive, noticable change in direction, something different, true to the silver age mantra of reinventing or revamping of a main character and/or series.

I find the Bronze age DC series much easier to recognize in this respect. See Batman 217, WW 179, Superman 233, JO 133, GL 76, Detective 393, or 395.

Being that the CCA did have a huge impact on the direction and content of the books, its not a bad rule of thumb, just much to general for me. That being said, there are worse ways to draw a line between the ages.

 

..... I certainly don't disagree with the gist of what you have here. My only problem with book by book demarcation is with the concept of what the definition of an "age" means to me. For example, we are now in the cyber age, and just because there are households and even entire countries without computers, it is still the cyber age.......it's a broad sweeping notion. If we accept the existence of an "age"....to me, it must begin somewhere. The age is more specific as to it's time frame. The nature of the age is something a little different. Certainly, editorial compliance to the censorship that helped spawn the Silver Age is integral, but not all material or titles required compliance to fit the parameters of the new censored marketplace. For simplicities sake I use the Code......although many ongoing DC hero titles were already in compliance. Batman and Superman issue 100's are convenient markers also. For me the age is a timeframe..... the content is just a condition....and an evolving one at that. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

Jimbo your simple rule is surprisingly nuanced when you analyze it. I like this explanation.