With Hard Asset Prices Plummeting, What's Next for the OA Market?

[Bronty]

[tth2]

You live there not me but I know enough about the price of real estate there to know that an offer tower in manhattan is worth a lot more than a pollock painting?

Maybe not a Pollock painting, but there are definitely paintings in existence that would be worth more than a prime office tower in Manhattan. I`m sure if the Mona Lisa were ever put up for sale, that it would go for at least a couple of billion.

 

[tth2]

As one of the cool kids, let me assure you that Jack Kirby has our full endorsement!

Anyone who says that he`s a cool kid is by definition not.

[MisterX]

Just throwing out two things --

 

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Geppi museum in Baltimore.

 

I went twice, they've got alot of cool things to see!

 

Although, to be fair, it was never billed as a Fine Arts museum -- more like a Pop Culture one. (Or Entertainment Museum, to be exact.)

 

The curators do a pretty good job of organizing the material and describing its relevance to popular culture.

 

Obviously the Geppi is not the MoMa or the Met, and from what I've inferred, seems to only be able to stay open because of the deep pockets of Mr. Geppi.

 

Has anyone mentioned this place?

 

http://www.societyillustrators.org/mocca.aspx?id=8560

 

And there's a Herge Museum in Belgium!

 

http://www.museeherge.com/en

[Nexus]

That hamburger sculpture is a little sparse for my taste......no lettuce, tomatoes, cheese, bacon, etc. Even the pickle is on the exterior.

 

 

What you fail to appreciate (because unlike me, you are an uneducated barbarian), is that this hamburger is a prime example of minimalism. Of course, it's missing the lettuce, tomato, cheese, bacon. The meat is even minimally cooked. This theme is consistent with the artist's Giant Hot Dog, which is a wiener in a bun, with no ketchup or mustard. You comic book-reading mouthbreathers are lucky to have me around to explain all that.

[Nexus]

Curious: do you think Frazetta will get to where Rockwell is? I'm inclined to think his work is already approaching its peak value.

 

Frazetta's popularity probably peaked at some point in the '70s or '80s. There are enough of us 40 and 50-somethings, like the two gentlemen who purchased the 7-figure Frazetta paintings in recent years, to keep the Frazetta market healthy for now, but I really wonder if subsequent generations are going to have the same passion and intensity for his work than ours did. Realistically, I don't think so, but, greatness speaks for itself and I'm sure he will always have some admirers in each generation.

 

I was thinking about this some more, and was wondering: do you think that the younger generations today appreciate sci-fi and fantasy paintings like, say, the Gen Xers did with Frazetta, Boris, Kelly, Rowena, etc.? I have this nagging suspicion that most young people today would not only not appreciate paintings of barbarians and scantily clad damsels in distress, but would consider them to be the height of cheese, even as skillfully executed by Frazetta.

 

I am a Gen X'r that feels this way

 

Me too. Frazetta has so much verve and real carnality that he makes it work, but even with him, I think his famous funnies covers and some of his comics work may actually end up aging better.

 

Those paintings were cheesy to begin with, and have not aged well. But, kitsch has its appeal. I'm not sure even the biggest sword-and-sandals fans ever took them too seriously.

 

As for Frazetta, I like his pen/ink work better than his paintings. I always thought I was in a tiny minority...interesting to see others agree here.

[Nexus]

Just throwing out two things --

 

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Geppi museum in Baltimore.

 

I went twice, they've got alot of cool things to see!

 

Although, to be fair, it was never billed as a Fine Arts museum -- more like a Pop Culture one. (Or Entertainment Museum, to be exact.)

 

The curators do a pretty good job of organizing the material and describing its relevance to popular culture.

 

Obviously the Geppi is not the MoMa or the Met, and from what I've inferred, seems to only be able to stay open because of the deep pockets of Mr. Geppi.

 

Has anyone mentioned this place?

 

http://www.societyillustrators.org/mocca.aspx?id=8560

 

And there's a Herge Museum in Belgium!

 

http://www.museeherge.com/en

 

Paul Allen's EMP Museum in Seattle has evolved from a music memorabilia showcase to one that also features science-fiction/fantasy artifacts. Obviously, the museum is simply an outlet for his nerdy passions, but it has become increasingly popular with the public. I wouldn't be surprised if it has also inspired new collectors.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMP_Museum

 

You can see some pics here:

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323393804578555421862377236.html

 

I plan on visiting later this summer and will report back afterward.

[drdroom]

As one of the cool kids, let me assure you that Jack Kirby has our full endorsement!

Anyone who says that he`s a cool kid is by definition not.

I thought of that problem, but since, apparently, according to someone, a bunch of us comic nerds are super-insecure vis-a-vis the "art world", I figured the greater good would be served by my soothing reassurance.

[Sharkey]

It's hard to be a misunderstood avante-garde artiste....

 

[drdroom]

best thead of the year......by far

 

No doubt about it!

[delekkerste]

Cool! Thanks for the report. Curious, though...you've stressed several times that the exhibit is just temporary...but from the curator's blog post, it seems more permanent:

 

http://www.moma.org/explore/inside_out/2012/11/29/video-games-14-in-the-collection-for-starters/

 

Reads like video games will be featured regularly?

 

More importantly, however...are visitors allowed to get their pictures taken next to the giant hamburger?

 

No, the videogames were donated into the permanent collection, but the exhibition that they are currently a part of, Applied Design, is only running until January 2014. There is only a certain amount of space devoted to Architecture & Design, so they have to constantly rotate the exhibitions to showcase their vast holdings. I'm sure the videogames will come around again at some point, but permanent collection <> permanently displayed.

 

I thought this was interesting: Because of the tight filter we apply to any category of objects in MoMA’s collection, our selection does not include some immensely popular video games that might have seemed like no-brainers to video game historians. Imagine what kind of "tight filter" would be applied to OA if it ever made it into the permanent collection - a lot of the most popular/valuable art wouldn't stand a chance of making the cut.

 

As for Floor Burger, no, you can't take a picture next to it (nor in front of any of the temporary exhibitions). I snapped shots of the videogames, but only because 4 of them were shunted way in the back by the elevator banks where no guards and very few people were posted.

 

There are multiple Oldenburg exhibitions going on at MoMA now - Mouse Museum/Ray Gun Wing, and The Street and The Store. You're going to have to trust me when I say that it's something you have to see in context; the art is really quite good, innovative in the subject matter and use of materials. It's intentionally oversized and absurd, as it's making a statement about American consumerism in the early '60s. MoMA is a huge tourist attraction that draws people from all walks of life, not just the intelligentsia and fine art connoisseurs, and, from what I could see, people were really absorbed by the Oldenburg exhibitions. There is plenty of bad "fine art" out there, but this is really good stuff.

 

Anyway, for anyone living in or visiting the NYC area, I'd highly recommend the Oldenburg exhibitions. Though, the best show I've seen recently is the "[Edward] Hopper Drawing" exhibition at the Whitney. In addition to more Hopper drawings you can shake a stick at it, they've also assembled a Greatest Hits collection of Hopper's most famous paintings, including Nighthawks from the Art Institute of Chicago (New York Movie from MoMA looks amazing in person as well; I've yet to see a photo that does it justice). Who knows if you'll ever be able to see all of these paintings in one place again - check it out (now through Oct. 6).

[Bronty]

Re the tight filter... yeah I suspect it would tick us all off... considering some of the games being shown are "innovative" design but zero fun factor. Its hard to make a fair comparison across collectibles but imagine the equivalent to having a comics exhibition and displaying the first die cut variant cover because it was innovative ( never mind that the comic sucked).

[drdroom]

Re the tight filter... yeah I suspect it would tick us all off... considering some of the games being shown are "innovative" design but zero fun factor. Its hard to make a fair comparison across collectibles but imagine the equivalent to having a comics exhibition and displaying the first die cut variant cover because it was innovative ( never mind that the comic sucked).

 

If it was collected into the design category, then I'd look for maybe a Watchmen cover, some Chris Ware for sure, maybe a Kirby machinery page, possibly something from the first year of Image, like a Spawn cover. Maybe a Bolland Animal Man cover or a McKean Sandman or a Biz Doom Patrol. Something by Miller. A Johnny Craig Vault cover would be a great pick. But why would they trouble with these originals, when it's the printed comic that represents the fruition of the design?

[suspense39]

Good point, why would they trouble? Its possible they would be displayed as part of the process....like when there is a Japanese print show. They always have a case that shows the plates or carved woodblocks and each stage of the printing process on paper.

 

However the masters show did show the comics as secondary

 

 

No point here.....just thinking

[bounty_coder]

My prediction 5 years from now people will be saying damn I could have gotten that piece for a fraction of that amount just like its been every 5 year period since I started collecting 12 years ago. Heck I see pieces selling 2 months after they are publicly sold for nearly double. No one in this hobby has to worry about this stuff turning into tulips. Bunch of nonsense. Black and white art in history doesnt go for that much?...It will adapt. I see plenty of people who dogged artists for years now diversifying their collection to include them. We are a passionate bunch and plenty of people feel that way and more to come.

thanks,

Matthew

 

Words every guy with cash into a bubble has ever said =)

 

I'm not saying we're in a bubble, or it will burst soon, just saying that's bubble speak...

 

Everything is in a bubble. Stocks, Treasuries, the population. As a society we are now having to genetically alter food in order to meet the needs of our population by creating larger, faster growing and more resilient food stuffs.

 

What I say is, own things that cannot be diluted very easily if at all. OA is one of those things, but there is a peak for everything...everything.

 

 

- bounty

[Nexus]

Cool! Thanks for the report. Curious, though...you've stressed several times that the exhibit is just temporary...but from the curator's blog post, it seems more permanent:

 

http://www.moma.org/explore/inside_out/2012/11/29/video-games-14-in-the-collection-for-starters/

 

Reads like video games will be featured regularly?

 

More importantly, however...are visitors allowed to get their pictures taken next to the giant hamburger? .

 

No, the videogames were donated into the permanent collection, but the exhibition that they are currently a part of, Applied Design, is only running until January 2014. There is only a certain amount of space devoted to Architecture & Design, so they have to constantly rotate the exhibitions to showcase their vast holdings. I'm sure the videogames will come around again at some point, but permanent collection <> permanently displayed.

 

Right, that's actually what I was getting at. Your previous mentions about the video games exhibit made it seem like a one-off. But it does appear that they will be back at MoMA, with a permanent collection that is still growing.

 

I thought this was interesting: Because of the tight filter we apply to any category of objects in MoMA’s collection, our selection does not include some immensely popular video games that might have seemed like no-brainers to video game historians. Imagine what kind of "tight filter" would be applied to OA if it ever made it into the permanent collection - a lot of the most popular/valuable art wouldn't stand a chance of making the cut.

 

Yup. As you've said before, "Gary Panter who?"

 

As for Floor Burger, no, you can't take a picture next to it (nor in front of any of the temporary exhibitions).

 

[tth2]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Geppi museum in Baltimore.

...

 

Obviously the Geppi is not the MoMa or the Met, and from what I've inferred, seems to only be able to stay open because of the deep pockets of Mr. Geppi.

That`s the issue. It`s like a museum that was set up by the kids who sat at the nerd table for other nerds. Displaying OA, or anything for that matter, at the Geppi museum wouldn`t constitute the endorsement of the cool kids that so many people in this thread seem to crave.

[tth2]

Re the tight filter... yeah I suspect it would tick us all off... considering some of the games being shown are "innovative" design but zero fun factor. Its hard to make a fair comparison across collectibles but imagine the equivalent to having a comics exhibition and displaying the first die cut variant cover because it was innovative ( never mind that the comic sucked).

 

If it was collected into the design category, then I'd look for maybe a Watchmen cover, some Chris Ware for sure, maybe a Kirby machinery page, possibly something from the first year of Image, like a Spawn cover. Maybe a Bolland Animal Man cover or a McKean Sandman or a Biz Doom Patrol. Something by Miller. A Johnny Craig Vault cover would be a great pick. But why would they trouble with these originals, when it's the printed comic that represents the fruition of the design?

What, no John Buscema?

[adamstrange]

With all due respect to you gentlemen, there is no higher expression of Western culture than...a giant freakin' hamburger:

 

 

(You'll notice that the pickle is OUTSIDE the bun...daring!)

 

In all seriousness, you picked the wrong item to pick on. First, it's an item that you can't look at out of context - it was just one small part of Oldenburg's brilliant "The Street" and "The Store" series (http://www.moma.org/visit/calendar/exhibitions/1320). Second, it actually was quite innovative - nobody up to that point had made "soft" sculptures like that before, so the use of materials was revolutionary.

 

I wonder what your response would have been if you hadn't drunk the Kool-aid first.

[delekkerste]

I wonder what your response would have been if you hadn't drunk the Kool-aid first.

 

I appreciate what Oldenburg was trying to do and say, breaking new ground in terms of subject and materials when it comes to sculpture, celebrating both the mundane and making a statement about American consumerism in the process, while also having a little fun with the stodgy art world to top it off (and, again, it was meant to be taken in context with a larger, themed exhibition). It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but anyone with an open mind ought to be able to appreciate it...no Kool-Aid required.