Venting about sellers

[surfer99]

Makes no sense to me...

 

I know there are plenty of sellers here so maybe you can make some sense of this. Theres a book I was looking to purchase on eBay. The seller had it listed at $160 OBO. I put in a Best Offer of $120 since this is what I had recently paid for other, more significant, books in this series with the same CGC grade. This was a fair offer and I had no reason to expect the seller would decline it. I checked it today, and the seller counter offered with $155. Um, what? These are the things going through my head at this point...

 

1. Were you insulted by my offer and so to show your contempt you decide to counter offer at $5 less than your asking price? If so, youre being petty and passive aggressive.

 

2. Was your intent all along to accept nothing less than $155 no matter what offer you received? If so, then list the book at $185 OBO to give your potential buyers some negotiating room.

 

Either way, I found this irritating and chose to ignore the counter offer and vent to you kind people rather than engage in pointless dialogue with the seller.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Til next time...

 

***

 

See more journals by surfer99

[Ronnylama]

What is the GPA listing for the book?

[AJRodriquez]

It's funny you would say this. The same thing happened to me recently on a statue that I wanted. I put in a best offer of about 30$ less than the buy it now price (because it was overpriced as it was) and the seller came back with a counter of 5$ less than the buy it now price. I laughed to myself and passed on his counter offer.

 

Any time I list something with a OBO I try to make sure the $ is at least around 25$ or so less than the buy it now. That way you have some wiggle room to negotiate.

[Tnerb]

My latest buy it now offer was fifty dollars below his asking, immediately it was accepted and I was happy. The thing is I don't need these books, I want them , but I don't need them. I have yet to list a book with a best offer. What book was it? I'd like to offer a hundred dollars below the value.

[biggblaster]

Hi Surfer,

I have posted on here in the past and it is no secret that I do mostly selling, although I have collected my entire life and still hold on to a book or two. That being said I do not understand why you would be upset. This is business and a seller wants as much profit that he can get. What I don't understand is why you did not continue the negotiations? If I understand the process correctly, then you have three opportunities to make counter offers. Why not go back and forth until you settled? And if that price was going to be too much for you than you could move on to the next one. But why be upset about it? Is it the only book of its kind? If so maybe the price is warranted? Where you serious about buying it, or negotiating on it, or did you want it just for what you wanted it at? Again that is fine but why complain? Me personally, would have accepted an offer of around thirty dollars less on a similar priced situation but that is because I know what I have into the book. This guy may have had more into it. On the flip side I have had so many offers for books that are almost obscene. I will give you an example. I recently had an Uncanny X-men 266 SS CGC 9.8 listed at 500.00. I always list as a fixed item and always have a best offer option. The prices I list at are a combination of what is available at the time of the listing and what the book has sold for in the past. I do this so I do not sell myself short and so that there is bargaining room. Well before I sold this book I had at least two offers, one for 75.00 and one for 50.00. These types of things are a waste of my time. I do not get upset but it is annoying that I have to reply to these and use time better well spent in other areas. The question for me, is the person making the offer doing it because he is a bottom feeder or somebody that is not even serious but just goofing around? But as a business owner I cannot look at it this way I have to be courteous to all. So maybe this person does not understand the market, or the way the system works, or maybe they do understand it and are giving themselves some bargaining room. Either ways I explain to them the whole process and cost, and in this for instance, show that the book fees and expenses add up to more than 50.00. That being said almost always they do not counter or even reply. When somebody is serious they do one or the other or both. For the record the x-men book sold for an offer of 300.00 including shipping and insurance. I did not even counter since the only copies selling for the listing price where ones signed by Stan (and we all know the added expense of that signature). The 300.00 offer was fair and comparable to what they were selling at so I took it. Let me know how you feel about all this, and if anyone else wants to jump on board I would appreciate the feedback.

 

[biggblaster]

Hi Hammership,

I have to say those types of tactics only perpetuate bad feelings. And you act like negotiation is something new. It has been with us since the dawn of time. That being said you only force yourself out of a deal with "playing games". Taking the example laid before us there seems to be a 40.00 difference in the price. Really not that much room for negotiating that is mostly why the counter was so small. The seller probably wanted to end up in the middle somewhere, like 140.00. but even if the buyer didn't want to he could have stayed firm at 120.00 and tell the seller this in the message. I also have a question about e-mailing a seller, not that I am against it, but why go around the channels, if you want something, again, why not just offer and stand firm? These type of lowball tactics only work on misguided collectors that have spent too much in hope of CGC 9.9 and 10 ecstasy. After they realize that is like hitting the lotto and then realize what goes into selling on a regular basis all they want to do is recoup, and that is why sometime they accept very low offers. Most sellers that do this for a living will not even reply to such things and most of the time the item eventually sells anyway.(See my example of xmen 266).

 

[X-ray Spexx]

I have the same problem bidding on books. In my experience I've found that most people flat out are asking more than a book is actually worth. On average most of the stuff listed is ultra modern ( like less than 1 year old ) or a signed copy of something ultra modern, but old stuff can be found under the same circumstances.

 

I think most sellers know that you as a buyer want the book in most cases more than they want to sell it, so they hold out on negotiating the price knowing that you'll probably fold out of desire before they get desperate. How many times have I seen a book that I been looking for for years only to find a couple grades lower than what I want way overpriced, the seller is really not willing to negotiate and I'm thinking " maybe I should just go ahead and get it ".

 

Lastly, as far as GPA goes, it doesn't tell you how much a book is actually worth like a price guide, it just gives you the moving average of what people have paid for the book. If you go out and buy a book for more than the average price, guess what the average price will go up accordingly. So really it all boils down to what your willing to pay for a book.

 

My advice, figure out in your mind what your willing to pay beforehand, set a firm ceiling, and start negotiations somewhere around the ceiling to give yourself some room to bid more until you reach the ceiling. If they counter like $5 over your ceiling you may want to consider it depending on how much you want the book. $20 over the ceiling, I would let it pass or simply wait and see if they fold before your bid expires. Remember, I don't care how rare a book is, there will always be another one for sale at some point, just wait. If they don't want to speak your language, let them go to comic book seller hell, and spend your money on food, clothing, or shelter!

 

- Spexx -

[Chaseman210]

I agree with biggblaster and the OP. For example, I have a comic listed for $145.00 or BO. Usually (depending on what is offered to me), my first counter-offer is about $10-15 less than the BIN price. Then me and the buyer go back and forth until I get an offer I'm comfortable selling at (usually around $120 or so).

 

On the other hand, I have had people offer $25 for the same book, and like biggblaster, I've sent them a message saying the grading costs amount to more than that, and I usually get no reply.

 

In the OP's case, why not counter $5 higher than what you first offered? There are three chances, and if you can't agree after those three, no harm in moving on. I do understand the frustration from both sides, though.

[X-ray Spexx]

To give couple of contrary examples to Biggblaster's post about his X-men 266 SS 9.8.

 

First off, this book though popular as its the first appearance of Gambit, is not actually rare, it just seems that way based on the prices asked for it. I got it off the newstand in the 90's at cover, and acquired a couple more raw copies before things went completely crazy. But seriously, there are probably near 150K raw copies printed and around 100K still in circulation give how popular X-men was at the time.

 

My contrary example of how crazy the market is. I go to a sellers website looking at a Marvel Super-heroes # 18, first appearance of Gaurdians of the Galaxy slabbed at 9.0 for $160. I think to myself, GOG are pretty lame second rate heroes that never really hit mainstream but they're relatively close to Captain Marvel, Adam Warlock, Thanos, Magus in some thrice removed sort of way. I plan on offering around $130 with room to negotiate, I mull this over for about a week. In the meantime, the GOG movie is announced and a new book is coming out. The seller takes the book down and I am under the belief that some other speculator bought it right. Magically the book reappears a couple months later ( probably after being pressed and not going up a grade ) on the sellers site priced at $750. Now I'm sure that I offered $160 it would be unheard of and the seller wouldn't respond on a book thats marginal in grade with cream to off-white pages.

 

Comments please

 

- Spexx -

[n2wdw]

I get frustrated with people who give a Best Offer option, but then don't really negotiate. It's unclear what happened here. I've had experiences like this, where the seller countered with just a $5 discount off the original price. That tells me the seller is probably pretty firm with his price, so whether I continue with the negotiation depends on what I want to pay. I might counter with $5 up on my original offer, and then see what the Seller does. Sometimes we reach agreement, sometimes not. Frankly, I think on most comics, the buyer has the advantage, because if I can't agree with this seller, then within a short period of time the same comic in the same grade will be offered, and I can then deal with that seller. In my collecting lifetime of a few decades, there have only been a very few instances where I regretted passing on a comic because the price was too high.

[miraclemet]

Hi Surfer,

This is business and a seller wants as much profit that he can get.

 

..I will give you an example. I recently had an Uncanny X-men 266 SS CGC 9.8 listed at 500.00. I always list as a fixed item and always have a best offer option. The prices I list at are a combination of what is available at the time of the listing and what the book has sold for in the past. I do this so I do not sell myself short and so that there is bargaining room.

 

For the record the x-men book sold for an offer of 300.00 including shipping and insurance. I did not even counter since the only copies selling for the listing price where ones signed by Stan (and we all know the added expense of that signature). The 300.00 offer was fair and comparable to what they were selling at so I took it. Let me know how you feel about all this, and if anyone else wants to jump on board I would appreciate the feedback.

 

So here's part of what I'm curious about your listing price... Im a fan of the OBO approach if Im doing a BIN. I usually list my BIN at what past sales have shown (so Im getting "market" and I do my OBO with a number in mind down to what I need to get to at least break even, or a fair "deal).

 

When you listed the x-men 266 what was the GPA on the book by comparison to your $500 listing price? (You never said who signed it, and that greatly sways the value of course) Based on your comments Im gonna assume it wasnt a Stan Lee sig, but who was it ?

 

And here's why I ask. If the books market value is ~$250-60, and if the GPA/market for your SS version is $300, why list it with a $500 BIN? Is it fishing for a whale? I understand not selling yourself short, but have you heard the feedback from creators who see their signed books listed for crazy $$ on ebay (think multiple times the market) and get resentful that others are making crazy money off their auto (not understanding that ASKING for $500 is different than GETTING A $500 SALE)?

 

I remember in the SS subforum that there were creators balking at the SS program or signing books in general cause their grandkid, neice, wife or someone pointed to a book on ebay for crazy asking prices and asked why someone else was profiting from their fame.

 

I get that you accepted a fair offer, which is great cause it makes you a better seller than many of those Whale fishers out on ebay who only want the crazy price. But what are your thoughts on the possible tallent's reaction to overmarket listing prices?

[biggblaster]

@X-Ray-I understand your problem with buying ultra modern books for very high prices but that is what the market is dictating. The reason for these high prices is because people are paying it. If people did not pay, these books would not be graded. You also talk about hunting for a certain book for years but still insist that it is not worth whatever the asking price may be. If it has taken you years to find a book and still not in the grade you want then I would assume that a higher price would be relevant and expected. You also talk about GPA not being like a price guide. What do you think a price guide is? It is a book that is put together with comic book dealers prior sales. There are no more relevancies to it than GPA for example. As a matter of fact GPA has more on hands information with actual sales of books right up to the current date whereas a price guide usually is a year or so behind. Price guides usually do not cover CGC sales and they definitely don’t reflect lower end books sales. If I received 3 to 4 dollars for every cheap book I would be a happy man. Realistically I only get a buck or two for books like that. Now to get back to my x-men 266 example no one is claiming that the book is ultra rare or has a low print run. What is the case is that high grade examples of the book, especially signed, have a very large demand, hence the higher price. I have also said this in prior posts, but just because you could buy a book of the newsstand 20 years ago for pennies does not mean it is not more valuable now. I could go on and on with boring example of how I purchased 50 copies of Amazing Spiderman 300 for .25 each and sold them, even back then, for 50.00 a pop.

@Miraclemet-To answer the first part of your question my x-men book was signed by Claremont. The highest recent sales of the book was between 450 and 550 but had multiple signatures, Stan Lee being one of them. Again I did not want to sell the book too cheap and I wanted to see the weight of Stans auto compared to Claremonts. Which by the way Stan had no involvement in that particular book except that he created the x-men team but that is a story for another post.

To answer the second part of your question, I cannot control what creators will ask for or what they do. If I had to venture a guess or have an opinion I do not think many are trolling around the internet looking up past sales of their books, but if they are and they need the money then they would be in a better position to have CGC witness them sign some of their own books and do the same thing we are doing. Don’t you agree? For that matter if a creator is upset a book has sold for so much money then I do not think their feelings will change when told it went for 500 instead of 300. I also would not change my course of action or chance at making 200 more dollars because a creator may or may not want to charge 10.00 for future signatures.

 

[kaholo1256]

I have this issue from time to time with others as well but typically if a counter offer is what I believe either insignificant or still to high I simply walk away. As others I typically email the seller before hand what I am looking to pay and if there response is I'm sorry I usually keep looking for another slab or turn towards the possibility of gaining a raw version.

 

There was one set example though were I did have to suck up my pride and simply bend to the Sellers price. My example: On the Avengers vs X-Men Set (Complete) there was a slot for a Argentinian Variant which was released during a Con specifically in Argentina and from what I found...RARE in any condition. So much so there is only three total from two issues that have been graded. Having said this when I finally came upon one even attempting to lower the price a single dollar became futile. I then realized that the seller was most likely one of us and understood its rarity as well as maybe even my wish to complete a collection. So....yep here you go buddy...asking price.

 

Some times you win and get it at a lower cost....Thank you Comics to Astonish... and sometimes you don't and pay full price.

 

K

[kaholo1256]

Biggblaster - I understand you and others in this issue. As I stated in mine if I can't find it in the price I want many times I am forced to find it in the price someone is willing to sell it for. Also while I do look at the Price Guide value from Overstreet and CPG.com I mainly take into account the completed and or solds from eBay and other auction houses when complete when I start to request on older slabs (A year or more).

 

As for Signatures I go back and forth with these. With Stan Lee's if after he signs it obtains a grade of 9.4 and below I go by the factor that at a Con his Signature costs $50 for a ticket, the Con itself costs roughly $25 with the slabbing $28. Place an additional uptake 20% upgrade and you have what I think is fair. So say a $100 comic with the added $103 cost and from me your looking at me offering no more than say $250. In my eyes this is where I get a great slab for cost of your work. On the other hand a comic that maintains a 9.8 or even 9.6 should be raised at a higher percentage as it was your chance and gamble to get a higher slab cracked and signed. That added gamble is why I would be willing to pay a higher percentage. So for me on the $100 comic with the added costs and now I am willing to pay %75 of the worth of the total cost or $350. Again this is also on an older comic and not a newer more readily available comic that I could do this for myself. The newer the comic the lower the percentage.

 

So for me I see your points but I also see my bottom dollar.

[surfer99]

There have been some great comments on here. A lot of good info and dialogue from both sides. Thanks to all for your feedback. Good food for thought. The GPA for the Bronze Age book I was looking at is $75 (thanks Ron). I decided to up my offer by $5 to $125 and told the seller i had paid this amount for similar books in this series. I won't go higher since the book isn't that rare and there are other books I could spend my money on as well. The seller sent me an email and said he could work with me if we did the transaction outside I eBay. I'm assuming this is to save him from paying seller fees. I'm on the fence at this point. We'll see what happens.

 

 

[jackowick-migration]

The offer-counter offer system frustrates me. From my regular show sales, I hate when it comes down to some kind of ego war like the "winner" is the one who says the last price. I price my items at a reasonable rate with some wiggle room, usually 10-15% so if someone asks for a best price or makes an offer, I go ONCE. Priced at $100, you ask for $80, you get $90, period. I don't believe in the back and forth "halfsies" where a buyer gives a ridiculous counter in the "hopes" of meeting halfway.

 

Which kind of gets to why I don't do best offers on my items. I don't want to field the lunatic offers, and I don't want to waste time bartering at 3AM with someone.

 

One footnote to this on GPA, while I do understand the service, for people to take a $119 a year premium service and completely disregard the price guides, the free guides, the free ability to search heritage and ebay completed sales etc... well, that's NOT a free market when only those who spend the most get the "true" prices.

 

And it doesn't truly track sales at trade shows and cons.

 

So if someone is countering with guide prices, I wouldn't hold it against them as a seller. They're not using a terrible guide. Comparing year over year from guides, printed or online, will still give someone the sense if the price should be moving up or down long term.

[JollyComics]

eBay listing fee is 50 cents.

Per Sold item/Seller fee is about 7% to 9% depending on what level is your selling rate like bronze/silver/gold power seller.

Through PayPal, you have to pay 3% per transaction.

Also eBay deducts on shipping charge.

 

For example, my item was sold for 100 dollars. eBay will deduct $8 plus deduction on the shipping cost (probably 50 cents). PayPal will deduct $3. You have to pay $12 out of your sold item to both services. Don't forget the cost of grading/ shipping/handling. The seller looks for the small profits.

 

The buyer and seller have three offers.

[Kevin76]

It really depends on what the seller paid for the book. If he paid $120 for it for example, And he sells it for $120, and then add say $10 shipping cause it's a CGC book, So the total is now $130 with shipping, then tack on 10% eBay fees, now it's $117, then 3% for paypal, now the price for the seller is $113.10, Then he has to make a trip to the post office and pay $11.20 for priority mail, now he walks away with $101.90 from a book he paid $120.00 for. So for him to go through all that and still walk away with some kind of profit, he might only have had a $5 window.

[pubmonkey]

what annoys me is sellers who don't offer international shipping from the USA to Canada. They lose on a sale from me and usually only get 10% of what I would have paid for their book. I always mail them first asking for shipping and when they decline I block them for the future cuz it's a waste of time and very annoying to see what they are giving away for peanuts and I can't even bid on. very very annoying and ignorant of the sellers.

 

For the best offer business it is simple: you make an offer and it is accepted which makes you happy, or you get refused which means you should move on. There is no law that the seller has to sell at the price you want to buy at. They can list the book at what ever they want. No one should be criticised for that. It belongs to them until you buy it at the price they want to part with it for. If you don't like the price there are other auctions and other comics. I get frustrated with high prices but it is all in the eye of the beholder. Someone else might think it is a bargain.

 

As collectors we all want the lowest cost for the books we collect and the highest price for the books we sell. Why shouldn't it be this way for the sellers on Ebay too. At some point if the price is too high they will realise why there are no bites.

 

But keep those offers going, the worst someone can say is "no".

[miraclemet]

I also would not change my course of action or chance at making 200 more dollars because a creator may or may not want to charge 10.00 for future signatures.

 

I'm less concerned about those that charge for their signatures (and support it, I'll happily pay $10 for ANY creator signature Im getting SSed.

 

I'm concerned about the atmosphere it creates when creator "flipper" feelings get applied to all collectors. [NOTE: I AM NOT CALLING YOU A FLIPPER].

 

Plenty of creators require personalizations now (say on a Sandman book maybe ) if they are going to sign, in an effort to decrease flipping. I think most of those flipping feelings are around seeing books listed for hundreds more when their signature is added. There is one famous ebay lister (who's books are often on a pedestal) who asks many many multiples of the market for books. I think that act creates problems for others trying to get signatures.

 

From your tone you sound pretty rationalized in your position. And I think you should be trying to get fair money for the product you help create by getting books SSed for sale. My point of contention is the possible impact of advertising a book for hundreds more than that market value (or better said 60% over market).

 

Creators feel they are signing books as a service to fans who help keep them employed (in a sense). And there's always been some profiting off of taking those signatures and selling them off. And while you are right you cant control what the creator thinks, or how they react to others profiting off their signatures, Im sure you'd agree that all of our actions contribute to the collecting culture in which they also exist, so the act of "over pricing" a book does not occur in an effect-less vacuum. That was all my point was.

 

[ps I fully understand the costs that go into acquiring those signatures, and understand you are not running a charity, and need to make your money as well, and Im sure you sensibly target SS opportunities that can be profitable, Im just making a point of the possible effect of outlandish {way over market value) listing prices on ebay, since no one gives two thoughts to them]