Recreation? First draft? Something else?

[drewincanada]

Here's the OA for the cover of Marvel Treasury Edition #12 on the auction block:

 

 

And here's the cover as it was published:

 

 

So what's the deal here? Anyone know the background on this piece? Is it a recreation or an early draft?

 

On the final cover:

• the logo stat is bigger and higher on the page;
  
• Howard has been moved up to overlap the logo;
  
• there are motion lines around and below him;
  
• the 4 Defenders are much smaller, repositioned, and rotated;
  
• the background has been simplified.
  

All of those changes could have happened between Palmer inking it and when it went to press.

 

But there are other, more significant differences:

• the Hulk's face is different: on the OA, he's squinting, and on the final cover his eyes are open and you can see his pupils;
  
• in fact, on closer inspection, the Hulk has been almost completely redrawn: check the feet, his left arm and his torso;
  
• Nighthawk's wings are a different size and shape, and the line work on his wings is different;
  
• there's additional line work on Howard's outstretched hand on the finished cover.
  

I'm sure I've just scratched the surface.

 

Palmer signed the art and dated it July 10, 1976. This book was published in January '76.

 

He likely signed the page after the fact. Why would he sign and date a page he was submitting for publication.

 

But if he signed it at the time he sold it, then that means he sold it in July 1976. Which in turn means that either (a) the OA was returned to him almost immediately after publication or (b) this is a duplicate cover that he drew/inked at the same time as the version that was submitted for publication.

 

Many of the elements are identical to the final cover (the inking of Valkyrie, for example, appear to be identical - even though she's smaller on the final cover).

 

But the OA is also extremely clean - no pencil remnants or notes in the margins - which makes me wonder if it's a lightboxed piece.

 

Whatever the case, something isn't quite right here.

 

Discuss, please...

 

 

Andrew

[lb jefferies]

I think the one up for auction is the original art.

 

Looks to me like Marvel editorial was unhappy with the art so they:

 

- statted and enlarged the main figure and statted and shrunk the other figures.

- had a staffer redraw Hulk's head and partial body so as to look more "on model".

- had a staffer add other motion lines, etc.

- had a staffer redraw the floor to change the angle.

- anything redrawn on the smaller figures were due to the fact that certain areas overlapped other figures on the original.

 

So perhaps a statted production cover does exist with about 1% or actual original art on it, but who really cares. The first version looks great.

 

Oh, and it came out in late 76, not January 76 (most of the Treasury's didn't have a month date so a lot of the online comic databases list January as a default instead of a flat 1976. I own the cover to the issue after this one and it came out in around oct/nov 76.

 

My 2 cents.

 

 

[drewincanada]

Thanks for the info about the publication date. Yeah, I was going by the date shown on online databases. If that's the case, though, it's interesting that Palmer would both sign and date the OA around the time he submitted it to Marvel. That's not usual practice.

 

I agree that most, if not all, of the changes could have been made by staffers, especially the main change, which made Howard far more of the focus than on the OA. IIRC, this treasury edition was in response to the unexpected, overwhelming popularity of Howard, and the fact that many fans hadn't been able to find a copy of issue #1. The treasury reprinted the Howard segments from Man-Thing and GSMT, as well as Howard #1. So I'm not surprised they played down the Defenders and gave Howard the spotlight on the cover.

 

I also agree that the Defenders were statted, and some changes could have been because the art didn't conform to Marvel standards (the Hulk's face, Nighthawk's mask) But if a staffer had to redraw the Hulk's right foot because it didn't conform to the Marvel model, I think that's a little excessive. Obsessive? Both?

 

What's up with the pin holes in the corners of the art board? Pinned down for shooting with a stat camera? Pinned down for light boxing? Even if this is the OA from the cover (and it sounds like it is), I still think it looks like a light box job.

[lb jefferies]

It could still be Palmer inking via lightbox over Colan's pencils, for sure. If Colan never touched the art that's something that should be listed in the description.

 

On a closer look though I can see what looks like pencil lines in Valkyrie's hair and cape, so he may have inked over the pencils and erased most of the them after the fact.

 

Perhaps reach out to Palmer. I hear he answers questions about this stuff from time to time.

 

[glendgold]

Palmer lightboxed a lot of covers in the 1970s. I note the lack of registration marks on this, which suggests lightboxing to me. I just thought of this -- the Treasury was done at a weird size. Original art to this book is smaller than regular artwork, about 9 by 14 as I recall. Mmmmaybe this is the wrong size, ie it's modern art sized and to get a publication version they statted off of this? Maybe Gene turned in pencils that were the wrong size? In any case, that logo looks like a modern addition to my eye. Could be wrong about that.

[drewincanada]

Perhaps reach out to Palmer. I hear he answers questions about this stuff from time to time.

 

Good suggestion. I sent him a note. (thumbs u

[Dan.Adrians]

Keep us posted!

[drewincanada]

Here's an A-B comparison of a portion of the cover. I had to enlarge the figure of Howard on the OA and rotate it considerably in order to get it to match up with the published cover.

 

Some odd differences in the inking:

 

the lines on the palm of his outstretched hand,

the lines between his eyes,

the inking above his right eye - both his "eyelid" and his "eyebrow" (for lack of a better description),

the inking of his right leg (on the viewer's left),

some extra inking on of his jacket,

the inking of the cigar,

the inks on his left foot (the lowest part)...

 

 

 

 

[lb jefferies]

I think when the art was statted and moved around they touched up the figures a tad. I really don't think it's anything more nefarious than that.

 

Thanks for all the work on the comparison gif. I love that stuff.

[drewincanada]

I think you are probably right.

 

I did hear back from Tom Palmer, however, and he said it's a recreation. I think he may be misremembering things, though. Your theory makes more sense. The fine details are identical, which wouldn't happen with a recreation. And then there's the date on the art: why would Tom do a recreation that was a different composition than the published art, and why would he do it around the same time he was doing the "real" cover?

 

I asked if he was 100% certain about the recreation, or if he was speculating. We'll see what he says.

[lb jefferies]

Wow, that's very surprising to hear, and that doesn't really jive with what I see here. I think the thing to remember is that it has been almost 40 years since the event. Everyone's bound to be a bit fuzzy, especially when they aren't as invested in the outcome as are most fans.

[drewincanada]

Yeah, it wasn't the answer I expected from him. Once again, I think your assessment of Tom's response is a good one.

[stinkininkin]

No way is that a recreation. An inker does not reproduce line work that exactly. No way. Tom is not remembering correctly. Artist's have the worst memories.

 

 

What were we talking about again?

 

Scott

[COMICLINK]

I just spoke with Andrew on the phone. As I mentioned to him, all indications on this end are that this piece is wholly original and there is likely another cover out there with practically nothing but stats on it. We have been told that the owner's husband actually purchased this directly from one of the artists at a NY convention in the 70s, prior to the book being published by Marvel. -Josh

[lb jefferies]

Thanks for the info, Josh. This thread has made me more inclined to go after the art, not less.

[Dr. Balls]

I agree with comiclink - there's probably another cover out there that is made up of individual stats taken from each character of this original art.

 

My guess, compositionally, is 1) that Marvel did not like the overlapping of the characters, as it appears that someone in production whited-out thin lines where the inks butted up to other characters in the original art to help improve HTD readibility - but it probably didn't work as well as they hoped so, they opted for:

 

2) making HTD larger because he was the main subject of the book, and the other characters much more secondary in size, so they clipped them out, scaled them, redrew areas of the art (Dr. Strange's ends of his cape are very apparent) and spaced them out on a new layout - making HTD large and in charge, giving him ample clear space from the other characters.

[drewincanada]

No, not a recreation. That much seems certain.

 

But there's still the possibility that this is light boxed. I spoke to a knowledgeable source who said that Palmer did his fair share of lightboxing in those days.

 

Josh told me he checked the art, but couldn't see any remnants of pencils. He pointed out the large area of whiteout below the Hulk's foot, and wondered why Palmer would need to make such a big correction if he was doing a lightbox piece. But there are any number of reasons for the whiteout. After finishing the inks, Palmer may have decided that there were too many shadow/reflection lines in that part of the page. Or after he submitted the page, someone in the Marvel art department might have decided the same thing - BEFORE they decided to do the complete overhaul of the layout.

 

And where are the margin notes and blue line markups we're accustomed to seeing on Marvel art of this era?

 

It may be inks on Colan pencils. It may be light boxed. I don't know for sure. But I'm inclined to believe the latter. And I think it's worth pointing out the possibility in case anyone is thinking of bidding on it.

 

I'm not trying to cast doubt in order to drive the price down. If I was certain it had Colan pencils, I'd bid aggressively. Now, not so much. I know that means that someone else, someone more inclined to take the auction listing at face value, will walk away with this page.

[drewincanada]

I got a more detailed reply from Tom Palmer about this piece.

 

He's still adamant that it's a light boxed recreation, but others have come forward with potentially contradictory info.

 

Still trying to clear things up.

[drewincanada]

I've had a fairly lengthy conversation with Tom Palmer about this cover.

 

I've pointed out to him that the small details in the inking are virtually identical between this page and the published cover, that there is whiteout in one area which seems odd for a commissioned recreation, and that the date he wrote on it is a few months prior to publication.

 

He still insists, quite strongly, that this is a recreation he did around the time he did the original, and that it was lightboxed using Gene's pencils or a photocopy if Gene's pencils. A few things he mentioned to support his case: the complete lack of production markups in the margins, the lack of Gene's pencils, and the fact that the artboard is not a standard size for Marvel art. It's too large.

 

I offered to him that Marvel may have statted the artwork, cut up the stat, and pieced together the final production cover - and all of the typical production markings would be on that statted cover.

 

His respnse was that people can believe what they will, but "the original question has been answered regardless of someone's claims, that cover is not the original published cover

and my signature, not Gene's, is on it. I may have sold that cover but it was a recreation."

 

In the meantime, I've heard from a third party who says he knows the owner of the artwork, and that he has details about the original transaction that might jog Tom's memory. I offered to pass the details on to Tom, but he hasn't been forthcoming with anything. Josh has also said the same thing to me, but he also hasn't offered anything concrete despite my offer to pass the info on to Tom.

 

I don't know what the real story is at this point. But that's where it stands.

[lb jefferies]

The thot plickens