Miller/Janson DD? 3 3

[AKA Rick]

The great aspect about published artwork, is regardless of who drew it, it was the final rendering used for publication, so in that way there's less an issue of fraud (other than artist credit attribution), and it retains a certain level of value and interest regardless.

 

There are and were a lot of "Studios" in the history of comic art where a primary artist used other artists in various capacities such as for doing the backgrounds or inking and even of course to a degree "ghost penciling" (lip synching for artists).

 

I think I heard that Pat Lee's studio had his work done by others but attributed to him, so if/when you're buying artwork by Pat Lee, as credited to him, it may not actually have been drawn by him, is what I hear.

 

I know Ed Benes used to be part of Mike Deodato Jr's studio in Brazil (as was I think Al Rio), and then now Ed Benes has a studio (from which Fred Benes and Mariah Benes is a part of) where a lot of the artists styles are similar to the studio owner.

 

I think Neal Adams had the Crusty Bunkers in the 1970's, but mainly an inking team if I'm not mistaken and were credited as such, so is a different scenario.

 

I think that's where publishers often differentiate with an attempt at accuracy crediting "layouts" or "breakdowns" as opposed to "pencils" and using terms like "finishes", "embellishments" instead of "inking", I suppose.

[drewincanada]

In any case, my original question was whether Frank Miller had done the 190 splash as the auction currently indicates. It seems like this is what happened: starting with issue #185 (or #179, but #185 for sure), Miller drew thumbnails. Janson then penciled and inked the finished page on a separate piece of paper. We can debate how to credit it or whether that means the page's value changes, but just for information's sake, it would be helpful to have that knowledge at hand.

 

Does that summary sound about right?

 

Yes.

[Tokay]

Yes, so please don't outbid me!

 

In any case, my original question was whether Frank Miller had done the 190 splash as the auction currently indicates. It seems like this is what happened: starting with issue #185 (or #179, but #185 for sure), Miller drew thumbnails. Janson then penciled and inked the finished page on a separate piece of paper. We can debate how to credit it or whether that means the page's value changes, but just for information's sake, it would be helpful to have that knowledge at hand.

 

Does that summary sound about right?

[bocaratondefense]

In any case, my original question was whether Frank Miller had done the 190 splash as the auction currently indicates. It seems like this is what happened: starting with issue #185 (or #179, but #185 for sure), Miller drew thumbnails. Janson then penciled and inked the finished page on a separate piece of paper. We can debate how to credit it or whether that means the page's value changes, but just for information's sake, it would be helpful to have that knowledge at hand.

 

Does that summary sound about right?

 

Yes, that is more accurate.

 

Klaus penciled, inked, and colored the page, while Miller never actually touched the art board. Potential buyers would never know that by reading the auction description only.

 

 

[Ferran Delgado]

In any case, my original question was whether Frank Miller had done the 190 splash as the auction currently indicates. It seems like this is what happened: starting with issue #185 (or #179, but #185 for sure), Miller drew thumbnails. Janson then penciled and inked the finished page on a separate piece of paper. We can debate how to credit it or whether that means the page's value changes, but just for information's sake, it would be helpful to have that knowledge at hand.

 

Does that summary sound about right?

 

Yes. I just wish that top art dealers and auction houses would describe it accurately in a future.

 

An average fan or collector probably won't know this info, but art dealers and auction houses know. In spite of this, they choose to omit the info from their descriptions. I think that this should answer the question about if the fact that Miller didn't touch the art has impact on the price.

[drewincanada]

At least Heritage credited it properly more accurately than Clink when they auctioned it last year.

Edited May 9, 2013 by drewincanada

[Ferran Delgado]

I don't remember so. In fact, I wrote them to change the description. Maybe finally they did it.

[drewincanada]

The listing is still there. I posted the link earlier in this thread. It credits Miller with "breakdowns".

[Ferran Delgado]

No, they didn't change it. Take this auction from a few months ago as a sample:

http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7073&lotNo=92226

 

"...in this Miller/Janson extravaganza..."

[drewincanada]

Yeah, that's shady.

 

The auction for the splash does say Miller breakdowns and Janson finishes, which is better:

 

Here's the link:

 

http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7059&lotIdNo=122003

[Ferran Delgado]

The listing is still there. I posted the link earlier in this thread. It credits Miller with "breakdowns".

 

It's not enough to list Miller with breakdowns. It has to say clearly that Miller drew them in a sheet apart and that he didn't touch the artboard offered. Anything else is a misleading description done on purpose.

 

I'm talking about auction houses and top art dealers. Particulars are another item, because maybe they don't know the info,

[drewincanada]

Oh I agree completely. I just meant that the Heritage listing was better than CLink. Still not accurate, but better.

[Ferran Delgado]

I never understood why auction houses like Heritage or CLink risk to damage their reputation with misleading descriptions like that ones. Imho, credibility for big companies like them should be more important than a few thousand of dollars, which is nothing compared with their volume of income.

[J.Sid]

What's their return policy?

 

If you read a description like that which failed to note that Frank Miller did not actually touch the page, would you have legal grounds to ask for your money back?

 

[pinupcartoonguy]

Depends how you define "breakdowns."

[COMICLINK]

After reviewing the information presented within this thread, and provided to me by Glen Gold privately (thanks Glen), the description has been modified further, to adjust sentence, which now reads as follows:

 

"This issue is without question one of the most memorable Daredevil collaborations, with Frank Miller's conception of the layout enabling Klaus Jansen to execute the finished pencils and inking on this piece."

 

I think it is sufficiently clear now.

 

-Josh

Edited May 9, 2013 by comiclink

[alxjhnsn]

After reviewing the information presented within this thread, and provided to me by Glen Gold privately (thanks Glen), the description has been modified further, to adjust sentence, which now reads as follows:

 

"This issue is without question one of the most memorable Daredevil collaborations, with Frank Miller's conception of the layout enabling Klaus Jansen to execute the finished pencils and inking on this piece."

 

I think it is sufficiently clear now.

 

-Josh

 

Thanks, Josh.

[Koa]

Have Millers layouts for the books ever hit the open market?

[Ferran Delgado]

After reviewing the information presented within this thread, and provided to me by Glen Gold privately (thanks Glen), the description has been modified further, to adjust sentence, which now reads as follows:

 

"This issue is without question one of the most memorable Daredevil collaborations, with Frank Miller's conception of the layout enabling Klaus Jansen to execute the finished pencils and inking on this piece."

 

I think it is sufficiently clear now.

 

-Josh

 

I disagree. A newby could be confused since you don't say clearly that these layouts were drawn in a separate sheet. I think that you're playing with words. My 2ç.

[lb jefferies]

After reviewing the information presented within this thread, and provided to me by Glen Gold privately (thanks Glen), the description has been modified further, to adjust sentence, which now reads as follows:

 

"This issue is without question one of the most memorable Daredevil collaborations, with Frank Miller's conception of the layout enabling Klaus Jansen to execute the finished pencils and inking on this piece."

 

I think it is sufficiently clear now.

 

-Josh

 

I disagree. A newby could be confused since you don't say clearly that these layouts were drawn in a separate sheet. I think that you're playing with words. My 2ç.

 

Ferran, he's in the business of selling art. I think he's said enough here (no horse in this race, just feel things are getting a little nuts).