Jack Kirby art in the 1970s - What's your opinion?

[Bio-Rupp]

I’ve already repeated it in a few threads dealing with the subject, but I will continue to do so indefinitely, because it is a key element to evaluate his 1970s (and especially 1980s) art: you have got to take into account the worsening of his eye illness (well explained in the Marc Evanier biography), for which he saw the images under an increasingly distorted perspective (and the best inkers learned to compensate for that).

 

The biggest problem happened when Jack deliberately choose, because he also wished to give work to younger professionals, to pick new inkers, like (for example) the (then) young Michael Thibodeaux.

In my opinion, Thibodeaux wasn’t excessively fit to Jack’s style, and he also had not the skill to see where the drawings "deranged" in order to correct them.

 

I don’t know from which year is the Royer-inked piece posted by Rupp, but it doesn’t appear a very late piece; in this case the arms seem a deliberate choice.

While the Silver Surfer graphic novel image previously posted still puzzles me, as the whole story seems drawn worse than most of his 1970s Marvel work previous to that point, which is often excellent.

 

Writing was not the topic of this thread, but since someone commented, I’d comment on this as well:

 

The horrible dialog and inane plots never allowed me to appreciate the art.

 

I tried to read the 2001 series a year or so ago and it saddened me that this was the same guy who gave us that incredible run of the FF.

 

The less said about Kirby's Captain America, the better.

I am going to revisit the Treasury book in the near future but I have long since purged any of his second

run CAs from my keeper box.

 

No. "Horrible" is too much a strong word, and pretty unfair. As far as stories goes, as Speedy has said, there were up and downs. The Black Panther series started in a quite bizarre, even goofy, way, but culminated in the Kiber storyline which is one of his most original stories ever (although the story was wrapped up by Ed Hannigan and Jerry Bingham), some of the Captain America episodes were dull, but some are highly original (the Madbomb, the Swine, Arnim Zola – that futuristic take on nazism, etc.).

2001 was a thing on his own, and as any other "pure" Kirby works suffer from a certain extremization, both in themes and dialogue. But it gave us Machine Man.

 

The Prisoner story was done around 1976... here is the link to the CLink sale with the other 16 pages... most still in pencil form.

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAuctions%2Fdefault%2Easp%3FFocused%3D1%26x%3D15%26y%3D11%26pg%3D25%23Item%5F970646&id=970646

 

On that same Clink page, check out this one from 1979. I think this is a pretty sweet commission piece.

 

[vaillant]

Thanks Rupp.

 

I think that the Cap’s pencil page pretty much confirms what I said. While solid, it has some anatomy inconsistency, and the "villain" shows already the hallmark of "skewed perspective" which was unfortunately due to the illness (higher stylization has nothing to do with this).

 

I think quite a proof of this is also that the very first issues of Captain Victory (inked by Royer) were still very solid, but as the series proceeds, the drawings deteriorate. The New Gods reprints from the mid-to-late 1980s (I think 1986) are an example of this.

[shadroch]

I’ve already repeated it in a few threads dealing with the subject, but I will continue to do so indefinitely, because it is a key element to evaluate his 1970s (and especially 1980s) art: you have got to take into account the worsening of his eye illness (well explained in the Marc Evanier biography), for which he saw the images under an increasingly distorted perspective (and the best inkers learned to compensate for that).

 

The biggest problem happened when Jack deliberately choose, because he also wished to give work to younger professionals, to pick new inkers, like (for example) the (then) young Michael Thibodeaux.

In my opinion, Thibodeaux wasn’t excessively fit to Jack’s style, and he also had not the skill to see where the drawings "deranged" in order to correct them.

 

I don’t know from which year is the Royer-inked piece posted by Rupp, but it doesn’t appear a very late piece; in this case the arms seem a deliberate choice.

While the Silver Surfer graphic novel image previously posted still puzzles me, as the whole story seems drawn worse than most of his 1970s Marvel work previous to that point, which is often excellent.

 

Writing was not the topic of this thread, but since someone commented, I’d comment on this as well:

 

The horrible dialog and inane plots never allowed me to appreciate the art.

 

I tried to read the 2001 series a year or so ago and it saddened me that this was the same guy who gave us that incredible run of the FF.

 

The less said about Kirby's Captain America, the better.

I am going to revisit the Treasury book in the near future but I have long since purged any of his second

run CAs from my keeper box.

 

No. "Horrible" is too much a strong word, and pretty unfair. As far as stories goes, as Speedy has said, there were up and downs. The Black Panther series started in a quite bizarre, even goofy, way, but culminated in the Kiber storyline which is one of his most original stories ever (although the story was wrapped up by Ed Hannigan and Jerry Bingham), some of the Captain America episodes were dull, but some are highly original (the Madbomb, the Swine, Arnim Zola – that futuristic take on nazism, etc.).

2001 was a thing on his own, and as any other "pure" Kirby works suffer from a certain extremization, both in themes and dialogue. But it gave us Machine Man.

 

You are welcome to your opinions, as am I. I think horrible might be too weak a word. Retched might fit better. To be fair, find me another writer in this period that you think wrote worse dialog than Kirby? Perhaps I missed them. Would any of his plots been accepted if he weren't "King Kiby"?

Could any other writer get away with the krap he wrote? How would you have liked to be his editor?

Captain America was just coming off a three year run that saw the classic Secret Empire story arc,which lead into Cap turning in his uniform and the Nomad saga. Kirbys work on Captain America- both story and art made me yearn for the good old days of Frank Robbins.

[vaillant]

If you are talking about dialogs, I can understand. Since english is not my language, I might just be unable to detect the actual quality of dialogs.

 

But I was speaking in general. I agree it‘s understandable that many readers were annoyed by the fact Jack felt the liberty to write his new Cap stories in some way "from scratch", but – although he did not take into account what the other fine writers had been doing on the title – I don’t think his Cap was basically "altered". Many of the earliest stories were bad, but when I read "The tiger and the swine" and the Arnim Zola storyline I enjoyed them a lot as simply more immediate and different than the refined work done previously.

 

Jack felt like he was entitled to work freely on Cap, being one of the character’s creators. The Panther has the same problems, and I keep saying I agree more with Speedy, he had ups and downs, and the downs were very downs, but the ups… were often very original. The Kiber the cruel storyline is still a great one (I have re-read it in part recently), and the dialogs are not bad there.

[shadroch]

At the time, I wondered if these were being ghost written by Kirbys grandchildren. Skimming through some recently, I still wonder.

His Black Panther was much better than his Cap, although I'd take Don McGregor's run over Kirby's anyday.

[vaillant]

It doesn’t make sense to compare the McGregor Black Panther (one of the Marvel highest masterpieces, ever) to Kirby’s take, they have different qualities. But I still do think there isn’t inconsistency in what he did.

At the same time I agree he produced an amount of dull material in the 1970s.

 

As far as the dialogue goes, I already explained you, my language skills are probably limited to see this. I read part of the Caps in italian when they came out, and while I did not like stories like "Kill Derby" or the like, I found the later issues to be remarkable, especially in their overall quality. I saw better the limitation in Jack’s dialoguing skills when I started collecting in original language.

 

Kirby‘s grandchildren were probably in kindergarten back then, as his granddaughter is a few years younger than me.

[Prince Namor]

Kirby, along with a handful of other artistic pioneers, gave comics their basic visual vocabulary.

 

This. Big time.

It's too bad some of today's artists aren't as versed in that basic visual vocabulary.

 

I don't know many of the newer artists (from say the last 15 years)- are there any that have an obviously strong Kirby influence? Any that use the Marvel (Kirby) method and are great panel page storytellers?

 

In the last 15 years? Wooo.. uh, Eric Powell right off the top of my head...

 

[Dick Pontoon]

Bruce Timm.

[Prince Namor]

Bruce Timm.

 

Yeah I'd thought of him and Mike Allred, but figured they be more in the 20-25 year range.

Man, time flies by!

Either way, great example.

[Bio-Rupp]

Kirby, along with a handful of other artistic pioneers, gave comics their basic visual vocabulary.

 

This. Big time.

It's too bad some of today's artists aren't as versed in that basic visual vocabulary.

 

I don't know many of the newer artists (from say the last 15 years)- are there any that have an obviously strong Kirby influence? Any that use the Marvel (Kirby) method and are great panel page storytellers?

 

In the last 15 years? Wooo.. uh, Eric Powell right off the top of my head...

 

What was that guys name who drew Cable for a bit... was it Ladron?

 

I think he was going for the Kirby look but evolved into something more Moebius-ey

[jools&jim]

Kirby, along with a handful of other artistic pioneers, gave comics their basic visual vocabulary.

 

This. Big time.

It's too bad some of today's artists aren't as versed in that basic visual vocabulary.

 

I don't know many of the newer artists (from say the last 15 years)- are there any that have an obviously strong Kirby influence? Any that use the Marvel (Kirby) method and are great panel page storytellers?

 

In the last 15 years? Wooo.. uh, Eric Powell right off the top of my head...

 

What was that guys name who drew Cable for a bit... was it Ladron?

 

I think he was going for the Kirby look but evolved into something more Moebius-ey

 

(thumbs u

 

Ladrönn...

 

[mrmyst]

[Steviehuv66]

Beautiful book to own! Camp Hill, PA. Is that near Gettysburg? I have been there many times. Nice part of the country.

[Darth Corgi]

70s Kirby is Awesome! Or any Kirby art for that matter. I loved the Devil Dinosaur and 2001 series. Kirby is the KING of comics for a reason. He wasn't the most detailed or realistic, he was all about characters who exploded off the page. Kirby drawings have power with the fewest lines possible. Plus he was a major pioneer of the art form.

[porcupine48]

The King is ALWAYS King!

[mtlevy]

Love Kirby - Do agree that inker matters

 

Eternals is nostalgic favorite from later runs

 

If you don't like his style that is fine - but no one should dispute he was a creative mastermind - which is more impressive to you?

 

Mark