Paradise Comics Toronto Comicon 2005

[Kevin Boyd]

And I'm eager to find out if he can make it or not!

 

Kev

[THE_BEYONDER]

Paradise_Comics User Collector 12/29/04 05:54 PM Reading a post in flat mode

Paradise Comics Toronto Comicon 2005

 

 

[mitol]

[greggy]

[blazingbob]

Here is my suggestion to promoters in general

 

I know how much comic geeks are impressed with the guest list but has any promoter EVER considered asking dealers for a Big spender comp list? Not just a free pass to the show which we will do but maybe some money towards their hotel or dinner out. Promoters are willing to pay to get guests which support their pocketbook but why don't they comp the big spenders who support the dealers who by the way support the promoter?

[Foolkiller]

I guess the list of BSDs is widely known? Submitted by the dealers? Would all dealers be expected to contribute equally?

 

The problem with that idea Bob is that a lot of the dealers are dollar guys who will see zero dollars from these "big spenders"... would the majority of dealers pool money together along with aid from the show promoter itself to bring these big spenders in. Invariably, promoters will say that table rates will have to be raised at a minimum... and it doesn't benefit all the dealers in the room... only some of them.

[blazingbob]

I know I'm stretching here but how about each dealer gets to submit one (1) name to the promoter to comp. Casino's comp their big spenders all the time, The promoter would obviously weed out duplicates and I'm sure it won't be a very large list. I'm asking that instead of promoters wasting money on ineffective advertising that they work with the dealers to bring the buyers to the show. It would also show me that the promoter is REALLY TRYING to bring buyers into the show.

 

Now here is my reason for this.

 

Wrestlers and porn stars don't bring buyers of high grade material to my booth. Many guests that they select don't either. The only guest of late that interested me was the woman who did the voice of Jimmy Neutron because my daughter loves the show.

[blazingbob]

As far as benefitting "some of them goes" each dealer has that one big spender who makes or breaks his show. It's a win/win situation for the dealer and the customer who is recognized that he is appreciated, the dealer has a SHOT of making money at the show and lastly he might possibly get another "A list" type collector who may spend some money.

 

I'd rather go with a promoter who is working to bring them in than go with the guy I hope is advertising to the right type of buyer.

[Foolkiller]

I don't disagree with the sentiment of trying to bring in more business for some of the bigger dealers. And no, the porn stars and most guests in general, aren't attracting the types of customers you (and many other big dealers like Metro, Harley and others appeal to) would want.

 

But I still see the problem as (not just free admission) but giving each dealer one customer to comp is a problem. The extra money has to come from somewhere. If you have 100 dealers, probably only 30 of them (at most) are "high end" dealers who actually care about this idea. The rest of them won't want to pay to bring in their "best" customer who if it's a dollar book dealer will spend maybe $150.

 

In order for the idea to work, dealers would have to contribute something to the mix in order to have a return. Sure, the promoter would have to be willing to contribute something as well (because do we REALLY need porn stars at cons... maybe we could dump them as guests?) but the bulk of the added cost of comping a big spender would have to come from the dealers. How do you convince all the dealers that its beneficial to them? The thing is NOT every dealer in the room has a big spender that makes or breaks them. Sure, if the dealers are dealing in books like you are, that's the case. But these 50% off trade guys and dollar book guys are where the bulk of attendees at cons want to spend their money. And that's what promoters tend to focus on, that customer which is evidenced by the "hot" artist guests they tend to bring in.

[blazingbob]

By the way I'm not picking on the Toronto promoters with my comments.

 

I would love to challenge every promoter to "show the books" on what they spend on advertising.

 

I had a promoter come on the Boston show thread and ask what could they do to generate a "successful" show. Well buddy, bring some spending customers. Now, do you think the promoter knows who they are? To me most advertising is shotgun style, fire a wide pattern and see what hits. How about taking some of those shotgun pellets and work with the dealers who know those big spenders. And lastly, what's the difference between the $150 dollar new book guy vs a $500 silver age buyer? Each one represents a big buyer to the dealer. The point is that big spenders in the eye of the dealer submitting the name gets rewarded for coming to the show and spending money, just like casino's comp people who come back.

 

The death of conventions is because dealers aren't making money, customers complain there is nothing to buy and the convention death cycle continues. How about somebody trying something new?

[blazingbob]

And to the "Where will the extra money come from".

 

Let's see $700 average Wizard show cost

 

Let's see $350 a table for the Motor City Mini show?

 

Let's see $350 a table for a Local NY show.

 

For example I get hundreds of useless pamphlets from Neat Stuff collectibles because they can't remember that I am an office, not a retail outlet. That is shotgun advertising and a waste of money. I could take that money alone in those wasted pamphlets and give $50 to a customer or overseas dealer towards his hotel bill. Shall I continue with the "flushing of money down the drain" drill?

 

Mailing lists bring repeat customers, you don't think that a customer who is getting comp'd by a dealer for being a good customer might now "make an effort" to visit the show if he was getting a break? Come on, I know a lot of "cheap" BSD's.

[Foolkiller]

I don't know how we would definte a BSD then. To me, a guy spending $500 was never my perception of a "big spender". Then I'd qualify because I certainly have spent more than $500 with one dealer at one time and certainly well more than $500 at a show. I don't think I've ever brought $5k to a show and spent it. That's my idea of a big spender. Perhaps my perception is wrong.

 

At any rate, I think you'd have a hard time convincing the dollar guys about this idea. Most of those guys don't take the time to get to know their customers, and would not see a point in paying extra to bring those guys in. I get the point concerning the table cost breakdown and that there should be money available, but you know the promoters are going to jack the cost if they start comping buyers.

 

You know the dealer community better than I do... Do you think you'd get a majority of dealers to go along with this idea?

 

The one point I agree with you on is that something needs to be done to shake things up at the cons to try and address the complaints you hear from dealers and customers alike... so in that vein, it's hard to be all that critical of your idea.

 

By the way I'm not picking on the Toronto promoters with my comments.

 

I would love to challenge every promoter to "show the books" on what they spend on advertising.

 

I had a promoter come on the Boston show thread and ask what could they do to generate a "successful" show. Well buddy, bring some spending customers. Now, do you think the promoter knows who they are? To me most advertising is shotgun style, fire a wide pattern and see what hits. How about taking some of those shotgun pellets and work with the dealers who know those big spenders. And lastly, what's the difference between the $150 dollar new book guy vs a $500 silver age buyer? Each one represents a big buyer to the dealer. The point is that big spenders in the eye of the dealer submitting the name gets rewarded for coming to the show and spending money, just like casino's comp people who come back.

 

The death of conventions is because dealers aren't making money, customers complain there is nothing to buy and the convention death cycle continues. How about somebody trying something new?

[Kevin Boyd]

Bob, I'm only the show organizer, but I will try to respond to each of your posts in turn, to the best of my ability.

 

Here is my suggestion to promoters in general

 

I know how much comic geeks are impressed with the guest list but has any promoter EVER considered asking dealers for a Big spender comp list? Not just a free pass to the show which we will do but maybe some money towards their hotel or dinner out. Promoters are willing to pay to get guests which support their pocketbook but why don't they comp the big spenders who support the dealers who by the way support the promoter?

 

Have we ever asked dealers for a big spender comp list? Nope. Why not? Mainly because we assume that most dealers wouldn't want to hand over their list of big spenders to a Promoter who is also a dealer.

 

What we do is allow the dealers to have a certain number of passes for the show with their tables to do with as they see fit. If you, as a dealer at my show, were to say I have a big spender friend coming and I need an extra pass for him, I wouldn't say no because I want big spenders at the show. Peter and I try to get the ones that we know to come to the show by talking to them on the road at other cons and by trying to advertize where these guys are looking... based on the feedback we received we seem to have had a very strong buying presence at our shows (last show for sure). What we didn't have and we are trying to build on is a larger casual fan presence, but to not lose what we gained the first two times.

 

And yes, we have comped admission for a few of the big spenders to convince them to check the show out, just as we have also comped visiting dealers who want to come in, because we want them to see that the show is a solid money-making one and a solid show for books.

 

And yes, you are correct, most big spenders couldn't care less who the guests are, but they do care which dealers are coming to the show.

 

As for dinners, hotels, etc. I don't want to sound cheap, but Bob, in an ideal world I would love to be able to do that, but we only have so much money in our budget. Sure, if I'm at a restaurant and I had some money, I might foot the bill or buy a round of drinks. Or if I knew a spender was coming I might work to get him a preferred rate at our hotel to save him some money, but at show time all of the show's money is tied up in paying for the show itself.

 

Plus, we keep our table rates really low compared to the other big shows (under US$300 per 8 ft by 8 ft space) . Maybe if we raised the rates we could get more money to pay for additional costs like a free ride for big spenders, but at this point I don't want to do that because raising the rates cuts out a big segment of collector-dealers who wouldn't make any money and it would make us less competitive, price-wise, from the Wal-Mart conventions.

[Kevin Boyd]

I know I'm stretching here but how about each dealer gets to submit one (1) name to the promoter to comp. Casino's comp their big spenders all the time, The promoter would obviously weed out duplicates and I'm sure it won't be a very large list. I'm asking that instead of promoters wasting money on ineffective advertising that they work with the dealers to bring the buyers to the show. It would also show me that the promoter is REALLY TRYING to bring buyers into the show.

 

I wish I knew which advertising is effective, but being involved in a show I definitely need to get buyers for the dealers, I agree, but I also need people to come in and pay admission so that I could actually make some money. So the question of effective advertising becomes effective for what and for whom? I think we are succeeding and connecting with the collectors in the market, and I would love any and all feedback to help improve this further, but in my mind, I think our show fails to advertise and connect to the casually interested fan and collector, who is looking for things other than high grade back issues. And these people like guests, they like panels, they like videos, auctions, etc.

 

Now here is my reason for this.

 

Wrestlers and porn stars don't bring buyers of high grade material to my booth. Many guests that they select don't either. The only guest of late that interested me was the woman who did the voice of Jimmy Neutron because my daughter loves the show.

 

Since the PCTC is a comic show, we don't go out trying to recruit wrestlers and porn stars. If we can get a high profile wrestler (RVD basically came to us) we will consider it, because we hope that the crossover appeal will sell some more tickets that will help us make some money and get some collective interest among the people that might dismiss a comics only show.

 

So as a comics only show I try to get guests who will appeal to wide cross-section of comic book fans - people who read and collect comic books, buy original art, collect comic-based models, statues and toys, movies, graphic novels and so on.

 

I tell you, as a fan, I try to recruit guests that I would want to meet and so far I've been amazed at the guys that have agreed to come to our shows. I mean I'm overwhelmed that Will Eisner came to our last show and I'm excited that Alvin Schwartz tells me he is honored to come to our April show. This is the second man to be officially acknowledged by DC as a writer on Superman after Siegel himself. As a promoter I hope that the presence of distinguished guests like Mr. Schwartz, or a Starlin, Eisner, Kaluta, Gulacy, Rogers, Rude, Sim, and so on will translate into sales of books by those creators at dealer tables. I hope you can sell a high grade Superboy 68, or Strange Tales 178 or a Cerebus 5 or Star Wars 1 to someone who will get that book signed by the creator (and hopefully submit it for Signature Series). Or that another dealer will sell more archives or tpbs.

 

I get e-mails from actors who played Zombies, or were on old tv shows all the time. Some guy that was in Lord of the Rings as an orc contacted me a few months back. And I politely have to say that I don't think this is the right show for them because I want to keep the focus squarely on COMICS. If they want to come in I'll give them a free table and I'll promote their appearance, but we aren't paying much for them because they aren't attracting the audience we are trying to reach - people who are interested in COMICS. If I do consider bringing in a media guest and paying for it it is because that person was involved in a comic book related property and will hopefully help to bring in fans of the concepts, not just the guest.

[Kevin Boyd]

As far as benefitting "some of them goes" each dealer has that one big spender who makes or breaks his show. It's a win/win situation for the dealer and the customer who is recognized that he is appreciated, the dealer has a SHOT of making money at the show and lastly he might possibly get another "A list" type collector who may spend some money.

 

I'd rather go with a promoter who is working to bring them in than go with the guy I hope is advertising to the right type of buyer.

 

 

I agree, there are a lot of costs and you want to minimize your risk and maximize your profit margin. I do know a guy who is dying for you to come to Toronto, but I don't know if he can personally make the show for you. There are a lot of collectors in our market that are always looking for new blood. Koop will tell you that our show was one of his most profitable shows two years running.

 

BTW We still have tables available.

[Kevin Boyd]

By the way I'm not picking on the Toronto promoters with my comments.

 

Thanks!

 

I would love to challenge every promoter to "show the books" on what they spend on advertising.

 

Books? What books? I don't think we spend enough on advertising, but I think we do spend a good sum where it helps - within the hobby itself. Where I think we should increase is in the local market to get more casual interest people in.

 

I had a promoter come on the Boston show thread and ask what could they do to generate a "successful" show. Well buddy, bring some spending customers. Now, do you think the promoter knows who they are? To me most advertising is shotgun style, fire a wide pattern and see what hits. How about taking some of those shotgun pellets and work with the dealers who know those big spenders. And lastly, what's the difference between the $150 dollar new book guy vs a $500 silver age buyer? Each one represents a big buyer to the dealer. The point is that big spenders in the eye of the dealer submitting the name gets rewarded for coming to the show and spending money, just like casino's comp people who come back.

 

Honestly, advertising outside of the hobby is extremely risky and fits the shotgun pattern and can be extremely expensive and ultimately useless. But I don't understand how a show promoter can't promote effectively within our hobby.

 

Where do we concentrate within the hobby? In Wizard, CBG, Overstreet, internet sites, chatboards, and at other conventions. And since Paradise is a dealer, every customer that purchases something from them on eBay gets a flyer and program book from the last con. That guy that buys a high grade silver or bronze book gets the same information that a guy that buys a high grade modern or signature series book gets.

 

The death of conventions is because dealers aren't making money, customers complain there is nothing to buy and the convention death cycle continues. How about somebody trying something new?

 

Well, since we are still young at doing big cons we are definitely, as Peter often says, "up for anything". We are trying...

[imyoursoulmate-migration]

Hey guys...

 

Is this the show at the cne or convention centre? I went to both and the one with eisner and kaluta ROCKED... there wasnt as many dealers, but the guests were amazing..., whereas the other show had a great dealer selection but a horrible guest list and was way too packed. Is the eisner show gonna have any more dealers than last time?

 

As you can tell, im not much into the new guys, but one that i would love to see is Jim Lee.. any chance of that happening? Martin Nodell would also be great.. Saw him about 10 years ago in toronto, and got a wicked sketch... Thats a true legend... Stan Lee would also be GREAT... Nice to see a promoter bring the classics to a show. Swartz is an awesome pick

[Kevin Boyd]

Is this the show at the cne or convention centre? I went to both and the one with eisner and kaluta ROCKED... there wasnt as many dealers, but the guests were amazing..., whereas the other show had a great dealer selection but a horrible guest list and was way too packed. Is the eisner show gonna have any more dealers than last time?

 

This is the show at the CNE. We are moving into the main building of the National Trade Centre this year, but it will still be at the CNE. Will Eisner was our guest of honor at the last show.

 

We are always working on getting more dealers. Silver Snail is back again this year, and we will have some other new faces.

 

As you can tell, im not much into the new guys, but one that i would love to see is Jim Lee.. any chance of that happening? Martin Nodell would also be great.. Saw him about 10 years ago in toronto, and got a wicked sketch... Thats a true legend... Stan Lee would also be GREAT... Nice to see a promoter bring the classics to a show. Swartz is an awesome pick

 

Stan is tough because he has decided not to travel outside of California unless absolutely necessary. Marty Nodell suffered a recent personal tragedy with the death of his wife so I'm not sure if he's doing any shows this year. As for Jim...

 

Kevin

[Paradise_Comics]

HI Bob... and everyone else. I think Kevin has spoken for both of us. You will in fact see us listening and taking advice as much as anyone else so feel free to send me an email. One thing about big spenders, we have tried to bring them up and have been successful on a few. Unfortunately we can't pay for a flight or hotel room but their ticket is complimentary and the one thing we could offer was admission to our Saturady party reserved for guests, dealers and volunteers. The party has been a great success, with Steve McNiven and Greg Horn saying it's the best comic party they've been too. It's at Vinnie's, an interactive video game bar. Not a fantastic offer but hopefully they appreciate the gesture.

 

Another effort to promote to big spenders, which are often dealers, is to offer a small space at my table to display or store a half box. Hopefully they can sell or trade some books and make it worth their while and the show will convince them to try a table at the next show.

 

Our guest list is on par with any show's list (ok maybe a ways to go to get to San Diego's level). If people like Jim Starlin, Will Eisner, etc don't help sell pre 1980's books I don't know who will.

 

With our show entering it's third year I definitely think we are heading in the right direction. For most people that know me I think I can confidently say that we are trying to create a great Comic show first and foremost. With Toronto being the 5th largest market in Toronto, I think it deserves a high quality show.

 

Thanks

Peter Dixon

Paradise Comics

paradisecomics@wiznet.ca

416 487-9807

[Kevin Boyd]

Toronto being the 5th largest market in Toronto

 

Thanks Pete,

 

I think you meant North America, right?

 

Kev