Mylar -VS- Inner Well, A simple SCS Experiment.. results inside

[OldGuy]

I'd happily pay an extra few bucks per slab, if the slab was significantly less likely (than the current ones) to cause damage to the book.

 

Ok, I'd be happy to sell you a Mylar and full back for CGC slabing costs + 10%.

 

What are you paying for now?

 

[Ze-man]

But whats the harm to also offer to the "Richie$" out there, an even better.. cooler, ultra super safe model.. if they want to feel special and and pay extra for it..to put their $15,000 comic in a special HG model?

 

Ok.. I gotta get back to work, but wanted to reply before I leave..

We both seem to have a different slant on my post, no biggy..this was not a point I am trying to hammer home.. was only throwing out a few ideas... my HG slab idea might be bunk. or valid...as of now.. that is not the important issue.. SCS is.

I did not mean to sidetrack the thread.

 

It's called " Elitism ". Why should the "Richie$" comics be more secure than the average collector?

Well for starters.. the average colector should feel safe too.. but if the Richie$ want to pay extra to get a Top Shelf product for a $15,000 comic....big deal.. it is their money.

 

If CGC wants to cater exclusively to those with endless amounts of $$$ to spend...then they shouldn't offer a cheaper alternative at all.

As I said before.. I WANT CGC to create a better, safer holder to eliminate SCS, for every comic submited to them, but offering 2 models is not that big a deal" and I dont think offering an alternate holder for a $15 increase would be considered "catering" as a very small percent of submitters would have use for it ...

 

A lot of collectors have already been forced out of the HG CGC market, and this " LUXURY SLAB " would only make the situation worse.

How can a $10-$15 increase in slabbing fees.. keep out collectors who already cannot afford a $10,000 comic.. ?

Cmon Beyonder.. I am talking about a $15 increase in slabbing fees.. how does that keep out anyone, who is already not "OUT"?

If a person cant afford a $10,000 comic.. then how could an extra $15 really matter?

And is it really any different then saying all cars should be the same.. no matter how much money you have to spend.

But as we all know.. there are Luxury Model cars.. and Economy models.. both models strive to keep us safe.. and as a whole, we all buy the best model car we can afford, to make ourselves, and our families.. (or our comics ) feel safe., and happy.

 

What's the point in slabbing your comics in an admittedly inferior slab?

Who said they would be slabbed in an inferior slab?.. not me..I said earlier that I wanted CGC to create a cost effective slab that eliminates SCS.. and offer a super deluxe model to the anal richie$ who want to pay for it

 

That's right....there isn't one.

 

I guess we can go round and round on this till we are blue in the face.... But as I already said , I read Garth's post, and ran with the idea.. I was just making a hypothetical post..

It is not something I really have all that much interest, or time in defending anyways.

It was just an idea I threw out there... not an "End All" proposition.

 

Ze-

[THE_BEYONDER]

And is it really any different then saying all cars should be the same.. no matter how much money you have to spend.

But as we all know.. there are Luxury Model cars.. and Economy models.. both models strive to keep us safe.. and as a whole, we all buy the best model car we can afford, to make ourselves, and our families.. (or our comics ) feel safe., and happy.

 

I knew this analogy would come up...and quite frankly...I feel it is an inadequate one.

 

I don't want to side-track your thread, as I give you major KUDOS for conducting your experiment.

 

Let's just let it go....and get back on topic.

 

 

 

Now... GET BACK TO WORK!!!!

 

 

 

 

[garthgantu]

But whats the harm to also offer to the "Richie$" out there, an even better.. cooler, ultra super safe model.. if they want to feel special and and pay extra for it..to put their $15,000 comic in a special HG model?

 

It's called " Elitism ". Why should the "Richie$" comics be more secure than the average collector?

 

If CGC wants to cater exclusively to those with endless amounts of $$$ to spend...then they shouldn't offer a cheaper alternative at all.

 

A lot of collectors have already been forced out of the HG CGC market, and this " LUXURY SLAB " would only make the situation worse.

 

What's the point in slabbing your comics in an admittedly inferior slab?

 

That's right....there isn't one.

 

Yes, exactly. Again, it boils down to perception. If you have a 'premium' slab that's notably different from the 'standard' slab, and costs 2x or 3x the standard price, a huge portion of your customer base is going to ask itself "what's wrong with the standard slab that would compel some people to pay so much more for the premium version?"

 

Unlike say, cars, where you can by a Hyundai knowing that, while it ain't no Porsche it WILL get you around town, we're talking about a product (comic slab) that has as its most fundamental benefit the *protection* of the book inside. To suggest that one slab is better than another is to truly undermine confidence in the lesser slab. Granted, confidence in that lesser slab is eroding already, but such a move on CGC's part would be the last nail in the coffin.

[Ze-man]

 

TGIF

 

 

 

Kewl..

Ze-

 

 

 

Perhaps We need a new thread...

Cars, Slabs.. First Class..or Coach?

 

Gotta go..

See you guys later..

 

 

Ze-

[garthgantu]

I'd happily pay an extra few bucks per slab, if the slab was significantly less likely (than the current ones) to cause damage to the book.

 

Ok, I'd be happy to sell you a Mylar and full back for CGC slabing costs + 10%.

 

What are you paying for now?

 

I'm assuming you're being facetious, OG....but for the sake of clarity I'll play along. I'm a big proponent of Mylars. Since I don't display or ship my books, mylars are more than adequate for archiving purposes. But they don't come with any resto check, they don't come with an "official grade" assigned to the book, and let's face it, in some ways they're clearly inferior to CGC's slab, even at the moment.

 

If CGC announced that in future, each level of encapsulation service would cost $5 more, to cover the cost of the mylar, the cost of putting the book in the mylar, the cost of paying guys to unload the mylars at the shipping dock, etc., I think most people on these boards would consider that reasonable, if the added cost equated directly to added security/protection/peace-of-mind.

 

Even in this extreme scenario you've crafted, I can't believe I'm defending CGC in some sense...!?!?

[OldGuy]

If CGC announced that in future, each level of encapsulation service would cost $5 more, to cover the cost of the mylar, the cost of putting the book in the mylar, the cost of paying guys to unload the Mylars at the shipping dock, etc., I think most people on these boards would consider that reasonable, if the added cost equated directly to added security/protection/peace-of-mind.

 

I just don't understand your thinking here. Aren't people already paying for "security/protection/peace-of-mind"? Why would anyone be willing to pay more? If CGC were delivering better "protection" now then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

How about CGC give everyone a price break on slabbing until they figure out how to deliver a product that actually improves the safety of a comic when it goes through the mail? Because at this point I can send one more safely in a $.30 Mylar.

 

From CGC's web site:

 

The CGC holder is designed to securely hold your comic book and provide years of protection from many environmental hazards.....

 

Except when going through the mail?! If a CGCed book can't be safely shipped through the mail then IMO CGC is basically irrelevant.

 

Oh great! My FF #1 9.2 just arrived! I can't wait to open the package. I feel so good about buying a comic that has been graded by a third party and that's been checked for restoration. Ohhhhh, nice book. The corners are a little bent , but it's not restored!

 

Paying more for something that IMO is already being paid for, just not delivered, is insane.

[Illiterati-migration]

If CGC announced that in future, each level of encapsulation service would cost $5 more, to cover the cost of the mylar, the cost of putting the book in the mylar, the cost of paying guys to unload the Mylars at the shipping dock, etc., I think most people on these boards would consider that reasonable, if the added cost equated directly to added security/protection/peace-of-mind.

 

I just don't understand your thinking here. Aren't people already paying for "security/protection/peace-of-mind"? Why would anyone be willing to pay more? If CGC were delivering better "protection" now then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

How about CGC give everyone a price break on slabbing until they figure out how to deliver a product that actually improves the safety of a comic when it goes through the mail? Because at this point I can send one more safely in a $.30 Mylar.

 

From CGC's web site:

 

The CGC holder is designed to securely hold your comic book and provide years of protection from many environmental hazards.....

 

Except when going through the mail?! If a CGCed book can't be safely shipped through the mail then IMO CGC is basically irrelevant.

 

Oh great! My FF #1 9.2 just arrived! I can't wait to open the package. I feel so good about buying a comic that has been graded by a third party and that's been checked for restoration. Ohhhhh, nice book. The corners are a little bent , but it's not restored!

 

Paying more for something that IMO is already being paid for, just not delivered, is insane.

 

Well, the front cover isn't restored, anyway!

[Mister_Comics]

Paying more for something that IMO is already being paid for, just not delivered, is insane.

 

If someone would host my scans of this idea.

 

I believe I've come up with a solution and it should not increase the cost what so ever. It may even be a savings. You think I'll get anything from CGC for this idea?

 

What I've come up with is a mylar comic support that is cut-out on one side.

Cut-out is made to fit comic percisely the full height of book.

 

Then the support is inserted in the comic. Most likely at center fold of book.

 

The comic now rests on the support at its spine crease. This pervents any movement of the comic to the right (outer edges).

 

The cut-out section of the support since its made to fit, pervents any up or down movement.

 

Once comic with support are sealed in CGC holder, the comic can not move.

 

CGC could eliminate the WELL or still use it. That would be up to them. But the WELL would no longer be needed. Thats were the cost savings is.

 

Once again; If anyone wants to see this and host it for me (AOL will not let me post scans here), send me a email and I'll send you a scan explaining the comic support that I have come up with. I really think this is the answer.

[Ze-man]

(Borock thinks there are problems with Mylars, so further study is required).

 

Well I guess I have 2 questions..

What exactly are the problems with Mylars..?.. is the main reason they were not used in the encapsulation method because they would cause "Staple Pull?"

 

And if that is indeed the case.. then are not all of our HG comics stored in Mylar subject to the same "Pull?"

 

 

A local dealer I know rather well often double-bags his Silver comics similar to the way Ze-Man's are, but he puts the Silver bags into a Gold-sized mylite double-bagged into a Gold-sized Mylar, meaning there's still lots of wiggle room inside the bags (but he only has to buy one size Mylite/Mylar to fit everything--Gold). I also can't remember EVER receiving a comic from an ebay seller with a double bag. The most common mylar'ed comic I get is a Silver/Bronze book put into an oversize Gold bag.

 

 

And just for the record.

To the best of my knowledge...

My Cap comic used in the "TEST"... is stored in the listed products..

 

1 SA comic

1 Silverage Board

1 Standard 1 mil Mylite

1 Silver Age 4 Mil Mylar1

1 CGC used case

Packing Tape

 

No double bagging.

 

The Mylite is a very snug fit when slid into the 4 Mil Mylar.

And when I taped my comic to the inside of the CGC shell to mimic it being in a "sealed inner well".. it did benefit for a slight "pressing" due to the packing tape accross top, and bottom edges.

It was slight.. but still there.

 

So I think some minor pressure against the comic is essential to prevent it from going on a walkabout..

 

 

 

 

Just wanted to make sure my "control" group was not mis represented.

 

 

Ze-

[Jeffreykli]

If someone would host my scans of this idea.

 

I believe I've come up with a solution and it should not increase the cost what so ever. It may even be a savings. You think I'll get anything from CGC for this idea?

 

What I've come up with is a mylar comic support that is cut-out on one side.

Cut-out is made to fit comic precisely the full height of book. Then the support is inserted in the comic. Most likely at center fold of book.

 

The comic now rests on the support at its spine crease. This prevents any movement of the comic to the right (outer edges).

 

The cut-out section of the support since its made to fit, prevents any up or down movement.

 

Once comic with support are sealed in CGC holder, the comic can not move.

 

 

[FFB]

What if the insert cuts into the spine of the comic? Like if the comic slips down the insert. Also, what if the insert's cut-out isn't exactly the same size as the comic? Then the comic can move, and the spine will almost certainly suffer damage in any shift.

 

An interesting idea, but I still think that mylar without hard well walls is the best idea.

[Mister_Comics]

What if the insert cuts into the spine of the comic?

 

Well the support won't cut the outside surfaces of the spine since the comics inside center fold page rests against the support.

The only area of concern is the very bottom and very top spine corner edges. This is the impact area. Any damaging impact force applied would be to either of these spots. Recessed corners like the WELL have, does not work in this situtation. Impact to the inside surface center fold page is not likely to happen. Mainly because of the amount of surface covered by the support. With this support you have the whole length of the comic held. Dropping a slabbed comic on its right edge with this support should not have any damaging effect to the comic. An added plus are the comic staples that are there. But they only add help to the support if they are in the fold crease. Staples outside of the fold don't add anything nor hurt anything.

 

what if the insert's cut-out isn't exactly the same size as the comic?

 

Then possible damage to the areas I mentioned above.

The up and down movement has to be controled by the fit. The cut-out of the support needs to be a close match to the comics height. Thats the beauty of this, it restricts up and down movement.

 

An interesting idea, but I still think that mylar without hard well walls is the best idea.

 

Mylar as you say would work great if only we didn't have to ship slabs around.

Here are the problems using mylar without hard well walls.

1. Comic can slide around even in snug fit mylars.

2. Comic cover statically adheres to mylar.

 

End result if bounced around over time... seperation of comic pages to cover.

Other possibilities... removal of print from cover surface. Abrasion over time. But it would be a long time.

 

Even I use mylars in the majority of my comic collection. They are great.

But to use in a slab, you still have problems that can be just as damaging to a comic.

 

If only we didn't have to mail slabs.

[FFB]

what if the insert's cut-out isn't exactly the same size as the comic?

 

Then possible damage to the areas I mentioned above.

The up and down movement has to be controled by the fit. The cut-out of the support needs to be a close match to the comics height. Thats the beauty of this, it restricts up and down movement.

 

It is certainly worth testing, but I suspect that even if you could get the cutout exactly the same size as the comic, there are two potential danger areas:

 

1) Putting the comic into the cutout. If it's exactly the same size or only slightly larger, the amount of care the encapsulators would have to use to avoid dinging the insides and bottom/top of the spine corners would be so great that it would slow the process down considerably. And if the package is mailed, I am still not convinced that the cutout wouldn't slice upward into the spine corners if the book were subjected to a drop. Instant spine split, going through all interior pages. If this happened, the cure (spine split) would be worse than the disease (minor slab damage).

 

2) Not all comics are the same size or thickness/number of pages, even from the same print run. You'd either need a million different sizes of cutouts (depth and width of cut, and from a materials/supply basis, this would be a nightmare), or you'd have to cut them by hand each time. Impracticable either way.

 

As for the mylar issue, have you ever seen the cover inks stick to mylar? I haven't. My understanding is that mylar is inert and won't react with cover inks like that, whereas other plastics will and do. I know that there can be static cling with mylar, but isn't this a problem with any plastic enclosure material? I mean, what are you going to use to encapsulate the comic in your design? I'm not saying the mylar should be compressed on the comic -- just that it should fit snugly with inner edges that come to a > edge, not a hard edge.

 

I'd rather have the comic book shift around safely in mylar than be in the current CGC slab. Like I've said, I have shipped mylars overseas with no harm to the comic, and have received dozens upon dozens of comics from across the country and from Europe with no damage resulting to ANY of them. While it is of course possible to damage a comic within any enclosure, it's more a question of which one is the best we can use right now. I still think it's a snug fitting, sealed mylar setup with a clear back board (made of thick mylar or archival polyethylene or polypropylene perhaps), like Kenny had in his CGC vs. Mylar test, and encapsulate this package in the hard outer holder like they have now.

 

The book in mylar in Kenny's test may have shifted a tiny bit after Kenny beat the hell out of it, but the forces he subjected it to were probably greater than it would usually encounter in the mail, and it did just fine. And more importantly, it suffered NO damage.

[Aman619]

where does the idea come from that mylar sticks to comics?? Mylar is totally inert, no sticking. Wasnt the pages ripped out problem with CGCs first inner wells which werent made of mylar?? Ive never had a cover come off as a result of mylars.

 

I like your idea but also worry about the stress points on the top and botton spines by the mylar holder. Also, why cant the book slide to the left?? Is the spine resting right up against the edge on th eleft?

[Aman619]

also some comics have overhangs on the spine areas which will be affected by the inner mylar.

 

and one more nitpick... A real mylar sleeve holds the book togetner and actually flattens it over time. The covers of your comic seem to be be floating in air (above and below the comic covers) UNLESS CGC redesigns their entire shell. DOesnt their existing slab have a pretty huge cavity of which most of the area is taken up by their inner sleve??

[Mister_Comics]

It is certainly worth testing, but I suspect that even if you could get the cutout exactly the same size as the comic, there are two potential danger areas:

 

1) Putting the comic into the cutout. If it's exactly the same size or only slightly larger, the amount of care the encapsulators would have to use to avoid dinging the insides and bottom/top of the spine corners would be so great that it would slow the process down considerably. And if the package is mailed, I am still not convinced that the cutout wouldn't slice upward into the spine corners if the book were subjected to a drop. Instant spine split, going through all interior pages. If this happened, the cure (spine split) would be worse than the disease (minor slab damage).

 

2) Not all comics are the same size or thickness/number of pages, even from the same print run. You'd either need a million different sizes of cutouts (depth and width of cut, and from a materials/supply basis, this would be a nightmare), or you'd have to cut them by hand each time. Impracticable either way.

 

All good points that would have to be taken into consideration.

 

As for the mylar issue, have you ever seen the cover inks stick to mylar? I haven't. My understanding is that mylar is inert and won't react with cover inks like that, whereas other plastics will and do.

 

Its not that the color sticks to the mylar. Its the rubbing movement. If for instance you had a comic in a mylar and kept shaking it for a long time. Even in a mylar it would loose some of the print. But it would take a long time. I probably should of left this out about abrasion. Its not a major problem but its there.

 

I know that there can be static cling with mylar, but isn't this a problem with any plastic enclosure material?

 

The static cling is a problem only when the comic is loose. But with a comic held in such a fashion as I have described I believe that static cling could help hold the comic in place.

 

Don't get me wrong. Mylar is the answer. Its just what is the best way to use it. I'm not saying my idea is the definite answer. I'm only contributing what knowledge I have about this subject. Maybe from our ideas something good will come of it.

 

One thing that people don't realize, most comics being shipped around are not in thier original mylar sleeve. So we don't see the problems. With CGC holders the books are pretty much in there from "get go". Being bounced around during shipping in the same container. If we were to see a comic in mylar thats been shipped all over the place and bounced around we would surely see problems also. Even with the edges being wedge (>) shaped, eventually there would be some noticable problem with seperation. It may take longer before it shows, but it most definitely will happen.

 

BTW; most of the mini-comics that CGC slabs are between mylar in that wedge (>) shape fashion. I think they are held just fine. They do have some movement when jarred, but nothing damaging. So maybe thats the way to go if you don't mind slight movement, crookedness, and possible cover seperation.

[fantastic_four]

BTW; most of the mini-comics that CGC slabs are between mylar in that wedge (>) shape fashion. I think they are held just fine. They do have some movement when jarred, but nothing damaging. So maybe thats the way to go if you don't mind slight movement, crookedness, and possible cover seperation.

 

Why does the wedge (>) shape necessarily lead to cover separation? I thought cover separation was caused by the container applying pressure to the cover, but not enough to keep the interior in place, causing the interior to rip away from the cover. The best alternative design I've heard so far is to keep the CGC inner well just as it is now, but craft the sides to be wedge-shaped (tapered) so that the force of a jolt is more evenly distributed along the edge, and overflash can fold up into the wedge without being bent at a 90-degree angle by a straight edge like it is now.

 

I love the idea of your insert! But like FFB, I can't imagine that it wouldn't cause at the very least 1/8" overflash splits, and at the worst in the case of a severe jolt, 1/2" to 1" spine splits. In a Mylar or the CGC inner well, the force of an impact is typically distributed across a large part of one edge, if not the entire edge, which more evenly distributes the force. In your design, ALL of the force would be concentrated in one place--the ULC or LLC (or the spine if the force vector is towards the left or right side of the comic, which as you said, appears to be a better solution for the right edge than what we have now). I can't imagine that wouldn't cause a split, even if the support insert were sized EXACTLY as the comic is (which is tough itself since even different copies in a single issue run vary in height/width); the force has to go SOMEWHERE. I would think the percentage of overhang splits you'd see would be rather large--somewhere in the 20% to 50% range. You could widen and round off the comic-contact edges of the ULC/LLC tabs to prevent outright splits, but still, you'd see blunting damage. Concentrating all the force of a jolt in two isolated places is just problematic no matter how I try to look at it.

 

Even though your current inner support design would be worse for the corners than the current inner well, if you removed the tabs which the ULC/LLC are meant to impact with and just used the support to protect the right edge, I think your reasoning is sound--it would be WELL worth it to protect right-edge overflash! The insert support, coupled with a tapered top and bottom edge, sounds like the optimal solution I've heard so far.

[Memphiskidd]

Excellent post.

 

Thanks for the sacrifice.

[fantastic_four]

Oh yea...I didn't realize the well is two pieces of plastic, one with the well and the other being a flat piece of plastic.

 

Given that this is how the CGC inner well is constructed, something occurred to me that may not require a drastic change to its design. The main reason many of us are thinking that a Mylar is better than the CGC inner well is because the tapered edges gives the comic something more graduated to bump into than the 90-degree wall that the CGC inner well provides. Could changing the walls of the bottom piece of plastic to slant at around a 20- or 30-degree angle significantly reduce the amount of overflash which gets crunched?

 

In other words, if the edges of the inner well looks like this today (this is intended to be a view of what the inner well looks like from the bottom):

 

________________________________________________________________________________

|______________________________________________________________________________|

 

 

Wouldn't overflash get damaged less if the bottom piece of plastic had walls like this?

 

________________________________________________________________________________

\______________________________________________________________________________/

 

 

My crude use of a backslash and foreslash to depict the way the walls of the well should be is more severe than I envision because they slant at around a 45-degree angle, but I believe the angles should be less severe at around 20 or 30 degrees. That would create an area the comic could gradually slide into. So right now, when a comic hits the wall, the overflash turns 90 degrees since that's the angle the wall is, but if the wall was at a much, much lower angle of 20-30 degrees, then the overflash should only bend for that 20 to 30 degrees, which is much less severe than 90 and should significantly decrease the chance of paper fiber damage and ink color break.

 

A further advantage of this design is that today, BOTH sides of the overflash--overflash on both the front and back covers--end up hitting the wall. Using the graduated edge design, the front cover should fail to hit the edge in all but the most extreme shakes (like the one Ze-Man did with his slabbed test book) because the back cover overflash is the one that bends up into the tapered edge. If the angle is low enough, the thickness of the inner pages should eventually prevent further penetration into the tapered edge before top-cover overflash even comes in contact with the wall.

 

Thoughts? I still like mister_comics' support insert idea, though...it should be able to protect the right edge better than ANY other solution I've EVER seen used on a comic book. That can definitely be used along with a tapered edge design.