Most important book of the 80s?

[Kevin Boyd]

My LCS at the time "Foundation Comics" in North Toronto (about two blocks from where Paradise Comics is currently located) advertised the heck out of Turtles before the book ever shipped.

 

The owner had received something from E&L with the cover of the first issue on it along and the tag line "The Turtles are Coming" with some photocopies of some interior pages that he taped up to the wall near the cash register.

 

I wasn't impressed but a fair number of my collecting pals were. The owner ordered conservatively on the first issue (directly from Mirage) and sold out right away. It wasn't until issue 3 had come out that he was able to keep any printings in stock at all. Every time he would get a subsequent printing of #1, and later #2, in the store he would sell out in a day or two. Demand for the first two issues was strong enough that he had to keep a list of people's names by the register who were waiting for the next printing to arrive.

[MK Ultra]

I voted for TMNT. It launched an explosion of "collector" driven comics. Comics that were terrible, and that provided a blue print for publishers to work off of for years. Daredevil 168 was a great book, but it was 158 back then. DKR was great, and had all the hype of the day, but I don't feel it had the impact on the industry. There wasn't the flood of the squarebound series. New Teen Titans was a good series, but it was all Marvel for me back then. Swamp Thing 21 seems popular, so I won't mention that I've never read it. Watchmen was great, but it didn't have the certain, "je ne sais quois". Wolverine??? Other (Crisis, Secret War, etc) Liked these, but they came out close together, and appeared as another gimmick.

[shadroch]

As I said earlier,I'm working from memory about events some twenty years ago.I do know none of the distributors I used on a regular basis carried the book when it was released.There was a story about the book in CBG before it was published and it kind of stirred my interest as it was described as a one shot spoof of Millers DD and Ronin.If I remember correctly the story said that the creators would be selling the books at various conventions that summer.Perhaps your shop read the article and contacted Mirage. I certainly don't recall being solicted by Mirage itself. They may have targeted

certain shops. There were a few small publishers self-publishing at the time.Survivors, The Justice Machine and some company in Conneticut come to mind,as well as Cerebus,First Kingdom and Elfquest.Some self-distributed,some went thru the DM.

Just out of curiousity,how many copies would you guess your shop ordered? Assuming they got a 50% discount,any profits from a real small order would prety much get eaten up from paying for shipping.I remember ordering 10 copies of First Kingdom from Bud Plant and the invoice,including shipping came to more than the total cover price.

[Kevin Boyd]

Not being privvy to the details of who contacted who first I can only guess.

 

However, my LCS was certainly ordering from Andromeda at the time (as were most shops in our area). It was likely thru Andromeda or at a local con that my LCS had originally been contacted. The preview materials were provided months before TMNT actually shipped.

 

I believe he ordered a modest 20-30 copies of the first printing based on reaction to preview materials. He was quite enthusiastic about it, if I recall.

[tth2]

Of course, the company as a whole took off once the cartoons and toys hit in 1988/89, but by then the "experiment" of publishing outside of the Big Two had already been worked on for almost two decades. The fact that this outsider publisher with a quirky band of mutant amphibians managed to make millions from ancilliary products had little impact on the core comic market, independent or otherwise. Most of the problems and issues had already been figured out. I mean, heck, ten year earlier George Lucas showed that owning the rights to your own creation could garner you a fortune. The Turtle empire brought nothing new to the table.

 

First, TMNT proved that two "nobodies" could create a successful comic book product. If you look at the other indies that came around during the same period, they all were built around an established artist--Grell, Adams, Chaykin, Kirby, etc. Now, anyone could become a successful comic creator, and lots immediately tried, which shows that TMNT really touched a nerve. The explosion in B&Ws and tiny comic companies happened before TMNT became a movie/cartoon/toy--it was the result of the overnight success of TMNT the comic. Correspondingly, it became so much easier for indies to get shelf space in comic stores.

 

Second, I'm not saying that the importance of ownership of creative rights was new in all of history. As you say, Lucas had already shown that in the movie industry. But if the importance of keeping ownership of your characters was so blindingly obvious in the comic industry, then please point out all of the other millionaire comic creators prior to E&L. That's right, you can't. There was not one. Part of the reason is that everyone had to work for the big publishers, meaning they had to sign their rights away. Hence the importance of being able to create your own company to distribute your own comic, and the open-ness of retail stores to selling your product.

 

I would also argue that creator's rights had long been an issue of discontent amongst comic professionals long before TMNT hit the mainstream in 1989. Like independent publishing in general, by the time the Turtles hit, most of the issues between the Big Two and creators had been worked on and many solutions attempted. I would argue that the creation of Image was more an outgrowth of this decades-long dialectic rather than from one product gaining monster popularity two years prior.

 

The first part of your paragraph is very true. The issue had been raised long before then. The first public manifestation of the issue that I can recall was Frank Miller's famous debate with John "Happy to be a Cog in the Machine" Byrne. But while comic professionals were pushing for reform, what progress was actually being made, and what concessions did the big publishers actually make to their employees? I would say very little, because there was very little incentive for the big companies to make any real concessions so long as they had all the leverage.

 

Sure the indies had already begun to appear, but none of them were particularly successful. I guarantee that nobody at DC or Marvel was in fear of losing their job because they had let American Flagg, or Grimjack, or Nexus, or Destroyer Duck, get away. TMNT (the multimedia success, not just the comic) was the singular event that swung the leverage over to the comic professionals, because the big companies knew that if they didn't make concessions, then the next talented nobody might tell them to screw themselves and go create and market the next TMNT by themselves, and the big companies would get nada.

 

Now, did TMNT provide further evidence that a little guy could make it big? Certainly, but it had already been done before.

 

Let me add one key phrase to your question which makes all the difference for this discussion about comics: Did TMNT provide evidence that a little guy could make it big in the comic industry? Yes, because that had never been done before.

[PedigreeMan]

tth2,

 

Again, you make some very compelling arguments, but I'm still not convinced. I still feel that creator's rights had been evolving since the 1960s (Bob Kane made hundreds of thousands from the Batman hype of that decade) and that the culmination of the issue in 1991 with the creation of Image was due more to this long, slow-burn process than any one major event. Did the TMNT empire play a part in this process? Absolutely, but I still think that Image would have come about with or without the Turtles.

 

Also, if the Big Two were so afraid of losing out on the next multi-million dollar property, why did they let McFarlane/Liefeld/Lee/Silvestri/et al. go off and form Image in the first place? I recall there being much controversy before any of the Image books shipped that the company would fail miserably. Why was there no large outcry at the time that, "Eastman and Laird did it, so these comic professionals should have no problem doing it, also?"

 

On top of things, weren't the Big Two giving a ton of concessions to the top name talent prior to Image's creation? Didn't a lot of creators obtain royalty agreements for ancillary products (action figures, etc.) created from their characters? Didn't McFarlane, Lee, and even Liefeld all become millionaires for their work before Image? It's changes like these that really make me marginalize the importance of TMNT within the scope of creator's rights. All of these beneficial changes were taking place either prior to or in conjunction with the Turtles becoming an empire, thus I have to view both events as somewhat separate.

 

Alan

[PedigreeMan]

Wtih all of my talk about why TMNT #1 was not the most important book of the '80s, I've failed to explain which issue I voted for: Swamp Thing #21.

 

While DKR and Watchmen were the ultimate culmination of everything that typified the changes to the comic industry during this time, they were both built on the foundation laid by the books that came before. I really enjoyed Shadroch's (?) initial argument that New Teen Titans #1 "legitimized" DC, leading to Frank Miller eventually moving there to do DKR. Along those same lines, Swamp Thing #21 laid the foundation for Watchmen, and thus should be considered of more import.

 

However, I have to give the nod to ST #21 because the impact that book had on the growth of the writer in comic books is still being felt today.

 

Think about it: If Moore is just a little less talented and fails to craft "The Anatomy Lesson" as perfectly as he does OR if the comic buying populace reject his radical changes ("Whaddaya mean Swamp Thing ain't Alec Holland covered in muck?!?"), within twelve months The Bearded One's back on a plane to England to toil away in obscurity doing serials for 2000 A.D. or Warrior. Karen Berger then decides that British writers are "not yet ready for prime time," and never has the "Blackhawk Kid" (Black Orchid) discussion with Neil Gaiman, plus DC never imports Grant Morrison or Peter Milligan to reinvent Animal Man and Shade. Jamie Delano and Garth Ennis on Hellblazer? Forget about it, Alan Moore never got a chance to create the character. Now it's 1991 and Swamp Thing is a member of the JLA trading jokes with Booster Gold and Blue Beetle and Vertigo is something you get trying to "read" the latest Rob Leifeld book.

 

Then Image comes along with all its flash and no story philosophy, sells a trillion books, and solidifies in the minds of the powers that be that comic books are solely a visual medium that any ten year old could "write." That means no Kurt Busiek on Marvels (what happens to Alex Ross, then?), Peter David and Mark Waid are reigned in creatively, and perhaps Dark Horse doesn't take a chance on Sin City.

 

Then the crash happens, and the Big Two are even less inclined to "go outside the box" creatively. That means no Warren Ellis, no James Robinson, and Kevin Smith has to actually perform some of those sexual acts he jokes about so often to get any work in the comic industry.

 

Can you see where I'm ultimately going with this? In the end, JMS and Jeph Loeb stay in television (not necessarily a bad thing ), Brian Azzarello, Greg Rucka, and Ed Brubaker are nobodies, and Brian Michael Bendis is off writing David Mamet-like plays or something.

 

And us fans? We're either carping about the sorry state of story telling today, or anxiously awaiting the latest issues of Spawn and (a Millar-less) Youngblood.

 

So yeah, I think we owe a lot to Alan Moore and Swamp Thing #21.

 

Alan

[shadroch]

I certainly agree that Alan Moore is one of the most important and influential persons in the 80s Comic market,but why issue 21 instead of 20?

Its strange how many people approach me at shows to buy a #21 and are surprised to find out he started in #20.

For some reason,it seems #21 is more avaiable and many dealers push it more,as the supply of #20s seems much lighter.

[chrisco37]

Nice work, Alan!!!! Great explanation! Truly one of the best single issues ever.

[Zonker]

I really like #20, but as mentioned above, it is the clearing-of-the-decks transition issue. With #21, the New Direction is launched, and the entire creative team is first assembled on the same issue: Moore + Steve Bissette + John Totleben. Bissette & Totleben did a couple of the last pre-Moore issues, and I forget who drew #20.

 

If the book had been cancelled with #20, it is doubtful that Moore would have made any kind of splash. If the book had been cancelled after #21, that final issue would be one of those classic "what-might-have-been" stories.

 

I like Pedigreeman's argument for the importance of the Alan Moore Swamp Thing. Here's another thing to consider: Before Saga of the Swamp Thing #21, can anyone point to an Overstreet notation and higher price based on the writer of the strip as opposed to the artist?

[Kevin Boyd]

I certainly agree that Alan Moore is one of the most important and influential persons in the 80s Comic market,but why issue 21 instead of 20?

Its strange how many people approach me at shows to buy a #21 and are surprised to find out he started in #20.

For some reason,it seems #21 is more avaiable and many dealers push it more,as the supply of #20s seems much lighter.

 

Saga of the Swamp Thing #20 is harder to find, I agree. It took me only 20 years to get a copy for my collection... but then again I never really looked for it either.

 

Why didn't I look for it? Because even though it's by Moore it's just a setup issue for #21.

 

The title of this story (#20) is "Loose Ends," and it wraps up the previous 19 issues involving the Sunderland Corporation.

 

#21 is mind-blowing, #20 is just sort of there. Swamp Thing had to be captured (and apparantly killed) by Sunderland's men in order for his corpse to be taken to Woodrue for dissection in #21's "Anatomy Lesson", which is chock full of revelations (and retcons) about the character. ST is so ticked off in that issue about the truth of his origins and nature (when he returns from being "dead") that he even kills old man Sunderland at the end of the story.

 

So yes, #20 is their first issue... but the magic didn't really happen until #21, which is possibly the best written single issue of a comic book ever.

 

Funny, I don't think DC has ever reprinted #20. In theory that should make the book more desirable...

[Jayman]

Now it's 1991 and Swamp Thing is a member of the JLA trading jokes with Booster Gold and Blue Beetle and Vertigo is something you get trying to "read" the latest Rob Leifeld book.

 

Good God, could you imagine???

 

So yeah, I think we owe a lot to Alan Moore and Swamp Thing #21.

 

100% agreement here and very nice explanation!

[chrisco37]

Before Saga of the Swamp Thing #21, can anyone point to an Overstreet notation and higher price based on the writer of the strip as opposed to the artist?

 

Cap #7 (or is it 3? 8? Sorry, don't have OS handy) - Stan Lee's first scripts

[FFB]

I certainly agree that Alan Moore is one of the most important and influential persons in the 80s Comic market,but why issue 21 instead of 20?

Its strange how many people approach me at shows to buy a #21 and are surprised to find out he started in #20.

For some reason,it seems #21 is more avaiable and many dealers push it more,as the supply of #20s seems much lighter.

 

Saga of the Swamp Thing #20 is harder to find, I agree. It took me only 20 years to get a copy for my collection... but then again I never really looked for it either.

 

Why didn't I look for it? Because even though it's by Moore it's just a setup issue for #21.

 

The title of this story (#20) is "Loose Ends," and it wraps up the previous 19 issues involving the Sunderland Corporation.

 

#21 is mind-blowing, #20 is just sort of there. Swamp Thing had to be captured (and apparantly killed) by Sunderland's men in order for his corpse to be taken to Woodrue for dissection in #21's "Anatomy Lesson", which is chock full of revelations (and retcons) about the character. ST is so ticked off in that issue about the truth of his origins and nature (when he returns from being "dead") that he even kills old man Sunderland at the end of the story.

 

So yes, #20 is their first issue... but the magic didn't really happen until #21, which is possibly the best written single issue of a comic book ever.

 

Funny, I don't think DC has ever reprinted #20. In theory that should make the book more desirable...

 

Not that I think it's the best written comic book ever, but the first few pages of Daredevil #183 are so beautifully written that I shake my head in awe every time I read them. The DD#183-184 drug issues are some of the best comics ever.

[deathlok]

At first I thought this thread was attempting to define the most important single book.

 

Then several suggestion for titles appear in the thread, like Who's Who, OHOTMU, and Marvel Age.

 

Single issue might be difficult to define based upon individual preferences.

[Kevin Boyd]

I think it's great that we are pretty much in agreement that Frank Miller and Alan Moore were the gods of 1980's comics, creating the most influential works, either in single issues or in mini-series.

 

Most of the books we've talked about were by one or the other (even TMNT - which was obviously a Miller parody).

 

However, I also think it's awesome that John Byrne dominates the covers thread. Artistically I think he was the top dog for most of the Copper age.

[Fabfrank]

shadrock- sorry it took so long to respond. The Koch brothers were involved in the store. The owner was named Fred?? and I believe he had a partner named Joe (short, heavy set guy). They moved the store about 3-4 miles up the road next to the Cookies Steak Pub in Scarsdale. They than opened another 2 stores (Greenwich CT and Poughkeepsie NY). The Scarsdale store was eventually moved to the Yonkers Shopping Center and is under new ownership.

I remember Fred saying that the Koch brothers used a portion of the back of the store for inventory storage. If you couldn't find an item in the bins, you just had to ask Fred and he would tap the Koch inventory.

I remember seeing theTMNT books on the new comics shelf for 3-4 weeks before one of the workers said I should get it. I bought 2 copies and there were about 1 dozen on the shelf. They are first printings. A few weeks later they had a stack of 2nd printings and the worker told me I bought the book just in time. That the first printings were taking off and that they were going to do a 3rd printing.

I think at the time the first printings were slightly above cover price.

Man, writing this is like a walk down memory lane.

[Silver Surfer]

ASM 300

 

At least it should be in the top 10

 

Another vote here for ASM 300.

Surely the most important (or at least desirable) Spider-man issue of the 1980s!

 

My vote would go for ASM#238, but that's just me. I always thought that Venom was the most overrated Spider-Man villain in history.

 

By the way -- I re-read ASM#238 the other night. It is just a great read. Just as much fun now as it was when I pulled it out of a Marvel Multi-Mags three-pack back when it came out.

 

Has to be my pick as well. The previous 12-15 issues were so awesome and then when #238 came out I remember leaping at it when I went to my LCS with friends of mine. Great story and villain and probably the best cover of that era, DC or Marvel. Might as well post a pciture of it since we are talking about it.

 

[FFB]

ASM 300

 

At least it should be in the top 10

 

Another vote here for ASM 300.

Surely the most important (or at least desirable) Spider-man issue of the 1980s!

 

My vote would go for ASM#238, but that's just me. I always thought that Venom was the most overrated Spider-Man villain in history.

 

By the way -- I re-read ASM#238 the other night. It is just a great read. Just as much fun now as it was when I pulled it out of a Marvel Multi-Mags three-pack back when it came out.

 

Has to be my pick as well. The previous 12-15 issues were so awesome and then when #238 came out I remember leaping at it when I went to my LCS with friends of mine. Great story and villain and probably the best cover of that era, DC or Marvel. Might as well post a pciture of it since we are talking about it.

 

 

I totally agree. Other than 237, which was apparently a Bob Hall fill-in issue to allow more time for JR JR to finish 238 and 239, the issues from about 210 until 251 were awesome. I especially loved the Cobra/Hyde story in 231/232, and really, really, really loved the Will-O-the-Wisp/Tarantula/Brand Corporation story in 233-236. Then when 238-239 came out, well, that pretty much guaranteed that I'd be a Spidey fan for life.

[Silver Surfer]

Don't forget the two part Juggernaut story. I'm in my mid 30's so for me, '78-'83 was the best time to be a comic fan from Perez Avengers, Miller Daredevil, Bryne X-Men-FF to Simonson Thor and of course JR Spidey what more could I have asked for.