What do you think is the GA superhero market rate of return nowadays?

[Mmehdy]

I think today…..not as much in the early days, you need to be diverse. The amount of material vs collectors was amazing early on. Russ Cochran got me started in comic art with his amazing early catalogs….and his presence in the early conventions. We have done some "fine" deals over the years. But first, came the GA/SA comics and that is what spawned the art.

 

iI you bought EC art at the original sale , you would be well ahead of the stock market except for a couple of stocks. Pulps, OA, BLB all came into the fold AFTER the GA comic book started.

 

The plastic tomb is a two faced sword. You need today, especially, to be able to buy " what it appears to be". We know with all the tricksters and flippers and pressers that they are always trying to sell something for not what it really is.

 

If we want to see, the million dollar sales we have to have the CGC evolve...

 

BUT……

 

One way to deter all of this bsssssss, is to eliminate the grade labels and put everything together as one. Ok, detract from total repair, but to put a different label when you restore a rusted staple which is destroying you GA comic and not when you have tape of the book is just flat out insane.

 

To go the next step…say the 10 million dollar level etc….the CGC is gonna have to

reinvent itself.

 

It is not a bad thing to change…if it is for the better.

 

Until then, watch OA take over…..

 

The cgc should go into the OA certification business asap. they can put a stamp on the back of the art work or something like that.

 

If I was president, I would immediately start grading pulps and BLB also

[Timely]

I think today…..not as much in the early days, you need to be diverse. The amount of material vs collectors was amazing early on. Russ Cochran got me started in comic art with his amazing early catalogs….and his presence in the early conventions. We have done some "fine" deals over the years. But first, came the GA/SA comics and that is what spawned the art.

 

iI you bought EC art at the original sale , you would be well ahead of the stock market except for a couple of stocks. Pulps, OA, BLB all came into the fold AFTER the GA comic book started.

 

The plastic tomb is a two faced sword. You need today, especially, to be able to buy " what it appears to be". We know with all the tricksters and flippers and pressers that they are always trying to sell something for not what it really is.

 

If we want to see, the million dollar sales we have to have the CGC evolve...

 

BUT……

 

One way to deter all of this bsssssss, is to eliminate the grade labels and put everything together as one. Ok, detract from total repair, but to put a different label when you restore a rusted staple which is destroying you GA comic and not when you have tape of the book is just flat out insane.

 

To go the next step…say the 10 million dollar level etc….the CGC is gonna have to

reinvent itself.

 

It is not a bad thing to change…if it is for the better.

 

Until then, watch OA take over…..

 

The cgc should go into the OA certification business asap. they can put a stamp on the back of the art work or something like that.

 

If I was president, I would immediately start grading pulps and BLB also

 

You cannot encapsulate pulps, the overhangs are to massive. They would get severely damaged in a holder.

[Cosmic Boy]

The thing that worries me about Golden Age is the relative age gap in collecting. As a thirtysomething, I don't know a ton of Silver Age collectors in my age group. And I can count those that I've met around my age who collect Golden Age on one hand. The interest just doesn't seem to be there. And that's now, and I'm not even *that* young. What happens to the Golden Age hobby when the teenage collectors of tomorrow replace the older stalwarts of the hobby? Does Golden Age bottom out?

[Cat-Man_America]

The thing that worries me about Golden Age is the relative age gap in collecting. As a thirtysomething, I don't know a ton of Silver Age collectors in my age group. And I can count those that I've met around my age who collect Golden Age on one hand. The interest just doesn't seem to be there. And that's now, and I'm not even *that* young. What happens to the Golden Age hobby when the teenage collectors of tomorrow replace the older stalwarts of the hobby? Does Golden Age bottom out?

 

 

[font:Times New Roman]Anything's possible, but if history is any predictor, that scenario is highly unlikely. The GA is a much more stable market than SA simply because there are fewer books. New collectors and speculators enter the GA market all the time, and it doesn't take many to maintain high demand given the scarcity of desirable books. Also, comic collecting in general benefits from the continued popularity of costumed heroes on film and television. Taken together, these factors will insure interest in the comic collecting culture through reruns even if digital formats replace paper and the film industry moves on to something else.

 

If I tried comparing the comic collecting market to anything it would be coins as opposed to sports cards or other paper ephemera. Coins have an established rarity in spite of a fluctuating collector base. Because coins are still in common use it encourages historical interest and speculation long after styles change and older examples are removed from circulation. Minted coins can also be seen as a form of art, in much the same way as published comics, and even if the production of coins ceased, there'd still be a strong enough collector base to sustain the market due to nostalgia.

 

Nostalgia is an interesting disease. Once you realize you've caught it the only known treatment is to resign yourself to living with it and pursue collecting for the remainder of your preternatural life. Denial may disguise the symptoms, but walking away only creates feelings of sadness and loss. Few if any collectors on this board were around to buy GA books off the newsstand, but the passion for it has been passed down. The interest in collecting fodder from a prior generation's childhood fantasies persists, fueled by mentoring and exposure to books and films that inspire the imagination. My

 

I was in a long-winded mood (sadly, no alcohol was involved).[/font]

[mrmyst]

The thing that worries me about Golden Age is the relative age gap in collecting. As a thirtysomething, I don't know a ton of Silver Age collectors in my age group. And I can count those that I've met around my age who collect Golden Age on one hand. The interest just doesn't seem to be there. And that's now, and I'm not even *that* young. What happens to the Golden Age hobby when the teenage collectors of tomorrow replace the older stalwarts of the hobby? Does Golden Age bottom out?

 

I heard this sentiment 20 years ago.

[Cosmic Boy]

All very valid points, but do you really think collectors raised on the digital format are going to be interested in dropping 50k on a low grade 'Tec #31 in another twenty years? I'm just not sure. And outside of Bats, Supes and Cap, can we really say that any of the other Golden Age heroes have true lasting appeal? What is the realistic likelihood of new Hourman collectors being born every day?

[Mmehdy]

All very valid points, but do you really think collectors raised on the digital format are going to be interested in dropping 50k on a low grade 'Tec #31 in another twenty years? I'm just not sure. And outside of Bats, Supes and Cap, can we really say that any of the other Golden Age heroes have true lasting appeal? What is the realistic likelihood of new Hourman collectors being born every day?

 

 

That is the real problem with Hourman, is I don't see this being a prime time TV show. As the big guys are getting bigger with movies etc...the little guys are getting smaller. Hourman has no future other than a downward trend, as 95% of all other Ga comics are going.

 

There Is always the exception, of the highest graded copy, the mile high book, a super rare book....

[Cat-Man_America]

All very valid points, but do you really think collectors raised on the digital format are going to be interested in dropping 50k on a low grade 'Tec #31 in another twenty years? I'm just not sure. And outside of Bats, Supes and Cap, can we really say that any of the other Golden Age heroes have true lasting appeal? What is the realistic likelihood of new Hourman collectors being born every day?

 

 

 

[font:Times New Roman]Well, I'm hard-wired as a collector, so any prediction I'd make carries that bias, but I suspect yes, and probably much more given inflation. Of course, lower grades are dicier and if more ungraded books eventually enter the marketplace that's the most likely place they tend to show up. Nevertheless, if history is any indicator, even in a tough economy GA books hold their own.

 

Trends are cyclical. Who knows what superhero franchise will connect with the public at some point in the future, rebooted or otherwise? When that happens speculators go nuts over new stuff while it's hot, but the big benefactors of rebooted franchises are usually collectors of older material that can't easily be snapped up.[/font]

[mrmyst]

But Mitch, in 1993 the same could have been said with respect to characters that 'nobody remembers' or younger readers had no connection to. And yet characters like Cat-man, Hangman, the original Daredevil (Silver Streak), etc etc, and titles with zero character significance, like Centaur comics, Fox Comics are far more expensive than 20 years ago. Sure a lot of books have devalued (Disney, Western, etc) but how do you explain the ones I mentioned? What about the Mystic Comics with the Destroyer covers? 20 years ago I was buying nice Fine copies for $400. They are ten times that now. And who the hell is the Destroyer? A relatively insignificant Timely hero who didn't merit his own title. I dunno, I think the chicken-little statements that the GA sky is falling are off base.

[Mmehdy]

5% of GA books are gonna retain value and increase.

 

 

I would not bet in the LONG RUN on Cat-man, Hangman....other than superman.

 

That being said, choice prime examples of uttra rare books should retain value..like the FPS #2 that I have been talking about...remember you only need one buyer, on that book there are only a couple of copies that exist...but if you are talking about CM # 145 with 30 copies out there we are talking about a different story.

 

The sky is not falling, but GA price growth on most comics are is high as they are ever gonna go.

[Cimm]

What I think the character driven, nostalgia driven, hype driven collectors are forgetting, re:future collectors, is the overall "coolness factor".

 

This ephemeral, indeterminate, unquantifiable something we shall for the ease of conversation, call a "coolness factor", is present in EVERY golden age comic, to one degree or another. Whether it is the simple "coolness factor" of owning something that is "that" old, or the "coolness factor" of "they got away with THAT in the mid-20th Century?!?!!!", or the intrinsic "coolness factor" of the period defining artwork of say Centaurs... all of this and more is there to be re-discovered by future generations, irrespective of character, storyline, or hype.

 

GA will always have new and reinvigorating generational surges and ebbs, based on WHAT they are, what they REPRESENT, and always, always, always... that way cool ART.

 

Nothing looks like them anymore. Nothing like them is produced anymore. That in itself is a "coolness factor".

[Cimm]

If I was president, I would immediately start grading pulps and BLB also

 

You cannot encapsulate pulps, the overhangs are to massive. They would get severely damaged in a holder.

 

I agree with part the first.

 

I disagree with part the second. You would just need a different TYPE of holder. I would use two sheets of mylar, larger than the pulp in each dimension by oh, say, one inch, heat seal the mylar adges, then encapsulate that with the holder gripping the edges of the mylar, not the actual pulp.

[mrmyst]

(Mitch): Nah, I'd say Cat-Man and Hangman, as classic archetypes of WWII-era superheroes, are a much better bet long-term than a pretty pedestrian Funny Picture Stories with - in comparison - far less visceral appeal. But that's just my opinion.

[Cat-Man_America]

5% of GA books are gonna retain value and increase.

 

 

I would not bet in the LONG RUN on Cat-man, Hangman....other than superman.

 

That being said, choice prime examples of uttra rare books should retain value..like the FPS #2 that I have been talking about...remember you only need one buyer, on that book there are only a couple of copies that exist...but if you are talking about CM # 145 with 30 copies out there we are talking about a different story.

 

The sky is not falling, but GA price growth on most comics are is high as they are ever gonna go.

 

[font:Comic Sans MS]Never bet against the Cat-Man![/font] >>>

 

>>>>>>>>>>

[conditionfreak]

I think (whatever that is worth), that "high grade" is over rated and over stated.

 

Most collectors can not afford the high grades of the primo books. But they do want to be able to say "I have one of those". Be it a Catman #13, or a Batman #1.

 

Thus, the demand side of those wanting a Batman #1 is much higher, in the lower grades. Very few can afford the higher graded Batman #1's.

 

Lower grade keys and sought after books, is a better long term bet, IMO. Much more liquid and probably rise in value quicker and better.

 

Supply and demand.

 

I, and lots of others, are in the market for a Batman #1, very low grade. But I am not in the market for a higher grade Batman #1. Because of cost.

 

I just want one. But I don't want to pay for it the cost of a house or two.

 

There is a much bigger market for a Batman #1 (or whatever key golden age book you want to insert here), in lower grade, than in higher grade. Much more liquid and a much better value, on the whole. I can tie up 10K for ten years. But I can not tie up 120K for ten years.

 

There are more people (collectors) like me, than there are like the few rich here and there.

[ciorac]

I think (whatever that is worth), that "high grade" is over rated and over stated.

 

Most collectors can not afford the high grades of the primo books. But they do want to be able to say "I have one of those". Be it a Catman #13, or a Batman #1.

 

Thus, the demand side of those wanting a Batman #1 is much higher, in the lower grades. Very few can afford the higher graded Batman #1's.

 

Lower grade keys and sought after books, is a better long term bet, IMO. Much more liquid and probably rise in value quicker and better.

 

Supply and demand.

 

I, and lots of others, are in the market for a Batman #1, very low grade. But I am not in the market for a higher grade Batman #1. Because of cost.

 

I just want one. But I don't want to pay for it the cost of a house or two.

 

There is a much bigger market for a Batman #1 (or whatever key golden age book you want to insert here), in lower grade, than in higher grade. Much more liquid and a much better value, on the whole. I can tie up 10K for ten years. But I can not tie up 120K for ten years.

 

There are more people (collectors) like me, than there are like the few rich here and there.

 

(thumbs u

[Cat-Man_America]

I think (whatever that is worth), that "high grade" is over rated and over stated.

 

Most collectors can not afford the high grades of the primo books. But they do want to be able to say "I have one of those". Be it a Catman #13, or a Batman #1.

 

Thus, the demand side of those wanting a Batman #1 is much higher, in the lower grades. Very few can afford the higher graded Batman #1's.

 

Lower grade keys and sought after books, is a better long term bet, IMO. Much more liquid and probably rise in value quicker and better.

 

Supply and demand.

 

I, and lots of others, are in the market for a Batman #1, very low grade. But I am not in the market for a higher grade Batman #1. Because of cost.

 

I just want one. But I don't want to pay for it the cost of a house or two.

 

There is a much bigger market for a Batman #1 (or whatever key golden age book you want to insert here), in lower grade, than in higher grade. Much more liquid and a much better value, on the whole. I can tie up 10K for ten years. But I can not tie up 120K for ten years.

 

There are more people (collectors) like me, than there are like the few rich here and there.

 

 

[font:Times New Roman]That's true, ...high grade is vastly over-rated! Folks, please send all of your *spoony* HG copies to me. I can't over state this enough: I'll gladly take that high priced junk off your hands! (thumbs u

 

OK, just for the sake of argument, I think many keys are overrated too, but whenever boardies get into these discussions it seems like the topic gravitates to a few GA books that most folks can't afford in any grade.

 

Fortunately, I'm not that interested in Batman #1 (high or low grade) so that's one less competitor. Cat-Man #13 may be another matter, but I'm prepared to wait, and patience usually wins out in acquiring tough books.

 

I know where you're comin' from and understand the need to keep an eye on liquidity when budgeting for mega-key books (high or low grade), but I think you're mistaken about the return on investment for iconic books like Bats #1 or Supie #1. Both high and low grades of these books still appear under-rated in respect to fair market values realized in recent years.

 

You're right about tying up money, but across the spectrum the values seem stable in spite of sticker-shock. For instance, in 2005 a 4.0 copy of Batman #1 sold for $8500, in 2013 a lower grade copy (3.5) sold for over $48K. In 2006 a mid-level pedigree 8.5 sold for $107K, and in 2012 another mid-level pedigree 8.5 sold for $274K and change. It looks to me like both would've been good returns on investment based on years held and outcome.

 

Of course, if market volatility is a serious concern, I'd be more uneasy about a six-fold increase in the realized prices of two low/mid-grade books over 8 years than the somewhat smaller more predictable percentage increases in two equal HG books over a 6 year span. My point being that a market correction might be limited to the lower end of the spectrum given the dramatic increase in profit on realized sales. Only if values dropped across the board would it be noticeably more painful for the HG buyer.

 

The bottom line is that folks buy what they like and can afford. I don't think it's wrong to lust after expensive books in grade, but I don't think anyone should put their home, family and future at risk spending money they can't afford to lose. Comics should be a fun hobby, and being passionate about what we like to collect shouldn't be a bad thing.

 

____________________________________________________________

 

 

I just realized the irony of your board name. [/font]

 

 

[tth2]

bottom line is comic books are collectibles....while there certainly is an investment element anytime one spends the type of money we do on them, they are bad investments in general...

I don`t know if that`s necessarily true. I ended up selling a big chunk of my collection in 2006, many of which I`d picked up in 2002-2003. My returns easily exceeded the performance of my stock portfolio over the same period, and even most individual stocks in my portfolio with the notable exception of Apple.

[Vision75]

I think (whatever that is worth), that "high grade" is over rated and over stated.

 

Most collectors can not afford the high grades of the primo books. But they do want to be able to say "I have one of those". Be it a Catman #13, or a Batman #1.

 

Thus, the demand side of those wanting a Batman #1 is much higher, in the lower grades. Very few can afford the higher graded Batman #1's.

 

Lower grade keys and sought after books, is a better long term bet, IMO. Much more liquid and probably rise in value quicker and better.

 

Supply and demand.

 

I, and lots of others, are in the market for a Batman #1, very low grade. But I am not in the market for a higher grade Batman #1. Because of cost.

 

I just want one. But I don't want to pay for it the cost of a house or two.

 

There is a much bigger market for a Batman #1 (or whatever key golden age book you want to insert here), in lower grade, than in higher grade. Much more liquid and a much better value, on the whole. I can tie up 10K for ten years. But I can not tie up 120K for ten years.

 

There are more people (collectors) like me, than there are like the few rich here and there.

 

That was my thinking too but I've changed my mind. For the general U.S. population the wealth gap between the ultra wealthy and the common person has increased for decades. If you overlay that trend onto comic books you could assume that the ultra-rich who are fighting over the rare high-grade GA and SA will spend proportionally more over time on these books than the common man on more pedestrian low- and mid-grade books. My two cents.

[G.A.tor]

bottom line is comic books are collectibles....while there certainly is an investment element anytime one spends the type of money we do on them, they are bad investments in general...

I don`t know if that`s necessarily true. I ended up selling a big chunk of my collection in 2006, many of which I`d picked up in 2002-2003. My returns easily exceeded the performance of my stock portfolio over the same period, and even most individual stocks in my portfolio with the notable exception of Apple.

Always exceptions. Not sure someone asking today will experience the same market dynamics/potential that existed in days past