Let's do a top 10

[precodekeith]

Ive posted my opinion on Vampirella 1's final ranking and I fully blame Keith for ranking it at #10 simply for the reason that he dislikes beautiful sexy women.

 

RAVEN! I hope my girlfriend doesn't read this! Beware the wrath of the chick.....

[precodekeith]

Furthermore, I find it very difficult to imagine that as egotistical and proud as JW is, that he took a Bill Gaines Mag to his printer and said I want to be just like this. I mean what exactly does this mean - he wanted a nice glossy cover? The printer has no say over art or story so I don't get it.

 

Why is that difficult to imagine? He rounded up as many of the EC artists as he could get and flat out told them that they were going to try to do what EC had been doing!

 

Actually , especially in the early 60's, the printer has plenty of say in that if they don't like the subject matter, they won't print it!!! It still happens even to this day!

 

It's not hard at all to imagine JW going to a printer and showing them EC TERROR ILLUSTRATED and telling them that this is what he wants Creepy to be like, and do they have a problem with printing the horror themes. No problem? Good! Can you duplicate the format as well, ya know, same size, color cover and B&W interior? Yes! Great! Give me a quote, please!

[precodekeith]

I I can't see any other reason this mag should rate so high.....

 

No other reason? How about the fact that it was the FIRST horror comic magazine? The genre that has EPITOMIZED comic mags. Wouldn't THAT be a valid reason to rank it high? I think so.

 

 

 

.....and my personal opinion is that it discredits the whole list.

 

That is the most radical statement I have read on this thread to date. I realize this is your opinion, but the main contributors tossed around a "rough" list for quite some time as candidates, and this mag was decided worthy of a spot. To say that the whole list sucks because you don't agree with one pick is a little too extreme.

 

 

Now I can appreciate the fact that this list is all about opinions, but EC Terror just seems to be an aberration compared to the other books on the list.

 

WTF? Please read above reply.

 

 

 

Also I am a bit surprised that Blazing Combat #1 is not high on the list.. I mean honestly, If i found a high grade BC 1 I would take it over just about anything else on the list..not even many close seconds.

 

P.S. Ask any dealer about Vampi Hardcover and they will say something like "I have not seen one of those in 20 years." If rarity of a pub related to a high-profile character is a factor, this item should surely be considered..it is also one of the hottest bronze age books.

 

Brock, we more or less hashed out early on that this list in particular wasn't going to be about "rarity" or condition. We certainly CAN start another list if we want to do a "rarity" top10, and Vampi HC I'm sure will be right up THERE..... but not HERE.

[RedRaven]

Keith,

It would be interesting to come up with a grading scheme similar to how many magazines rate computer games, you know graphics,sound,control etc...

 

Something like...

 

Market Value: (aka desirability)

Artist: (does it have a frazetta cover? is it wrightsons first cover art?)

Story: (blanket for origins ,first appearances,story-arcs etc...)

Impact: (fuzzy category for books whose style and mood affected comics in general , for example , Green Lantern Drug issues etc)

[Brock Samson-migration]

I dont think rarity has a whole lot to do (by itself) with a top 10 list. In my opinion, it is all about desirability. What are the 10 most desired mags- that is my point of view. I am pretty much a collector and not a philosopher (not as much concerned with the history or impact of the book on culture as I am about other factors). Desirability to me means value+ability to move the item quickly+long term positive trend of the book. So when I list Vampi HC It is for the reason that most dealers and collectors I have met would run the NYC marathon barefoot over broken glass to get their hands on a decent copy..can't say that EC Terror holds the same appeal. Hey and if the one thing we have to disagree about is EC Terror, that's not too bad now is it?

[Brock Samson-migration]

Oh and Keith, you make a very elementary mistake when you state that I said the whole list sucks... I believe that I said EC Terror being so high discredits the whole list. There is a difference. Please don't put words into my mouth. That is what people do when they are too intellectually lazy to defend themselves. While I agree that EC Terror is a nice mag, it just does not deserve a top 5 place. Basically the top 5 books are fairly easy to sort through; after that the mag-universe expands dramatically and many other books could find a place including EC Terror. One more point...Just because EC Terror may be the first horror mag (although to me it is somewhat of a bridge between pulp mag and true comic mag) that in itself does not guarantee greatness. (Arguably) I see no direct bridge between it and the Horror-Mag genre..it seems almost like an island. Again these are my opinions and I really don't think there is anything radical about them. Maybe you don't like them so you try to brand me as that...see my above point on putting words into my mouth--same logic. Anyway..don't take anything personally unless it comes from your wife or close friends..otherwise..who really cares.

[precodekeith]

..... (not as much concerned with the history or impact of the book on culture as I am about other factors). Desirability to me means value+ability to move the item quickly+long term positive trend of the book.

 

I see where you are coming from Brock, but think you might not be on the same page as us right now. Again, early on in the thread the contributors basically came to a consensus that this particular top 10 would more or less be books that had a historical importance and impact to them. Hence, the booting of Vampi Hardcover.

 

I am by no means opposed to a "rarity" top 10 or even a "value/desirable" top 10, but shouln't we start a seperate thread for those at this point?

[precodekeith]

Oh and Keith, you make a very elementary mistake when you state that I said the whole list sucks... I believe that I said EC Terror being so high discredits the whole list. There is a difference. Please don't put words into my mouth. That is what people do when they are too intellectually lazy to defend themselves. While I agree that EC Terror is a nice mag, it just does not deserve a top 5 place. Basically the top 5 books are fairly easy to sort through; after that the mag-universe expands dramatically and many other books could find a place including EC Terror. One more point...Just because EC Terror may be the first horror mag (although to me it is somewhat of a bridge between pulp mag and true comic mag) that in itself does not guarantee greatness. (Arguably) I see no direct bridge between it and the Horror-Mag genre..it seems almost like an island. Again these are my opinions and I really don't think there is anything radical about them. Maybe you don't like them so you try to brand me as that...see my above point on putting words into my mouth--same logic. Anyway..don't take anything personally unless it comes from your wife or close friends..otherwise..who really cares.

 

Brock, I quoted you correctly, look at my post.

I did not QUOTE you as stating the word "sucks." That was my word describing my impression of your quote. For you to "discredit" the ENTIRE LIST just because you feel TI doesn't deserve a top 5 slot belittles the opinions of everyone who felt it deserved a top 10, and especially the other half of the contributors who felt it was a top 5. That was the ONLY thing I stated was radical. For you to "poo-poo" the ENTIRE list over TI = extreme.

 

And if you are implying that I am being intellectually lazy, maybe you should go back and re-read the thread. I have more than defended many picks on this list, I feel, quite honorably and more than intellectually....

[precodekeith]

Oh, and just a little reminder:

 

Ok all, this is the proposed list for the unordered top 10.

If any of yuze gize got a beef with this then open your cakeholes now!

 

1. Cracked # 1

2. Creepy # 1

3. EC Terror Illustrated # 1

4. Heavy Metal # 1

5. Mad Magazine # 24

6. Nightmare # 1

7. Savage Sword Of Conan # 1

8. Savage Tales # 1

9. Vampirella # 1

10. Web of Horror # 3

[precodekeith]

paging Mr. BS ......

 

I have been following this thread for a while and I have to say the final list looks good.

 

[Jayman]

I dont think rarity has a whole lot to do (by itself) with a top 10 list. In my opinion, it is all about desirability. What are the 10 most desired mags- that is my point of view. I am pretty much a collector and not a philosopher (not as much concerned with the history or impact of the book on culture as I am about other factors). Desirability to me means value+ability to move the item quickly+long term positive trend of the book. So when I list Vampi HC It is for the reason that most dealers and collectors I have met would run the NYC marathon barefoot over broken glass to get their hands on a decent copy..can't say that EC Terror holds the same appeal. Hey and if the one thing we have to disagree about is EC Terror, that's not too bad now is it?

 

Not quite sure of your statements here.

Value and ability to move the item quickly sound more like a speculator/flipper point of view rather than a collectors standpoint. Nothing wrong with that, but to me if you are a collector you can't help being a philosopher to some degree. Meaning you must have a reason as to why and how you like to collect what you do, therefore having an opinion on said title/genre. The history or impact of the book on culture IS one of the main reasons a book or title becomes desirable, valuble and has a long term positive trend. As already stated, this is what this top ten list was about, not a rarity list, that's another animal.

[precodekeith]

Keith,

It would be interesting to come up with a grading scheme similar to how many magazines rate computer games, you know graphics,sound,control etc...

 

Something like...

 

Market Value: (aka desirability)

Artist: (does it have a frazetta cover? is it wrightsons first cover art?)

Story: (blanket for origins ,first appearances,story-arcs etc...)

Impact: (fuzzy category for books whose style and mood affected comics in general , for example , Green Lantern Drug issues etc)

 

 

very interesting idea, Red!

[Brock Samson-migration]

Man I feel like I have to beat a dead horse here..geez....value+long term trend says a lot about a comic..please notice long-term trend...I am not a flipper.. Value encompasses a lot of the traits that I think you are referring to as being philosophical (althought I hate to have use this word in this context-see following text). Now to clarify a bit- A collector not a philosopher was an attempt at humor ( i.e. Bones from Star Trek...Doctor not a ________etc..)...obviously it would be a stretch to label comic collector as a philosopher. It was just a bit of hyperbolae directed at Keith..I apologize for any confusion that may have caused you.. But you must admit Keith can wax eloquently on his choices..hmmm..maybe he is the first comic philosopher.

 

 

One more note...I think you guys are being to courteous and not seriously questioning some of these things. I just made a couple of calls to a few dealers just to see if I was off base on EC Terror..(Yes I can admit when I am wrong)..2 had never heard of it and 1 said he had heard of it but would not rate it in a top 10 mag...and these guys are old timers..so I know this does not mean a whole lot since lots of dealers can say lots of things ..but you know..I bet they have heard of the other 9 items on the list.

 

I hope everybody understands that this is just my attempt to ferret out any mags that are dramatically out of order in the list. Furthermore, I appreciate all of you guys contributing to this list it has been some great reading and I have learned a great deal as well. If I fire a torpedo at you, don't take it personally. I can promise I won't.

[precodekeith]

 

One more note...I think you guys are being to courteous and not seriously questioning some of these things. I just made a couple of calls to a few dealers just to see if I was off base on EC Terror..(Yes I can admit when I am wrong)..2 had never heard of it and 1 said he had heard of it but would not rate it in a top 10 mag...and these guys are old timers..so I know this does not mean a whole lot since lots of dealers can say lots of things ..but you know..I bet they have heard of the other 9 items on the list.

 

 

Brock, no offense but at this point I just can't tell where you stand. It seems like you want EC TI off the list entirely at times, while other times you seem to begrudgingly give it a spot, albeit way down the totem pole.

 

Either way, everyone else tossed the list around for quite some time and with great deliberation and in the final analysis we all felt it deserved the recognition.

 

ALL of us here can admit when we are wrong, just look at our initial lists. I'd say everyone has had a pick that got the boot from the final ten. We might have lobbied for some picks more than others, but when something did get the oust I don't recall anyone making too much fuss.

 

Keep in mind that right now it may seem like I am the only one standing up for TI, but FUELMAN went as far as placing it at # 1, and Bounty had it as his # 2 as well. Other than that it got no lower than a 6 vote!!!

 

Can you give the names of the 3 dealers you called?

 

I went as far as getting in touch with Roger Hill himself when we had questions about TI. (yes, even I had questions at one point.) So yeah, I think we ARE seriously questioning things here.....

 

As far as 2 out of 3 dealers never hearing of it, let me relay a story to you:

In 1994 at the Mid-Ohio Con, I was approaching dealers and asking point blank,"Do you have any pre-code horror?" This is a big show, and ONLY ONE dealer (Harley Yee) even KNEW what the term meant! Even a well known dealer from NY (who I won't name to save him some embarrassment) could only muster up, "um , you mean EC?" So really, forgive me if I can't take the 2/3 dealers input very serious.

[RedRaven]

at this rate the mag forum may reach 2000 posts before the new year!

[Brock Samson-migration]

Hey Keith my 3 dealers were local guys, and I said in my post that the fact that they had not heard of it did not mean a heck of a lot...so I am not gonna defend that very much. I believe you and I are just gonna disagree on this one. I just hope you don't misunderstand my take on EC Terror..great book and thanks to you it is now my biggest "must have" in the mag world. Just not in my top 5..I stated that it can easily fit in the next five. So many thanks for bringing it to my attention. Also what are your thoughts on the Spiderman mag from the 60's....first Superhero in Mag format?

 

My top five (in no certain order) Vampi 1, Mad 24, SSOC 1, Creepy 1, and Savage Tales 1-although Savage Sword is on the border with several other books.

[Forbush-Man]

at this rate the mag forum may reach 2000 posts before the new year!

 

To help us achieve that goal, I suggest we morph into "Greggy Mode" !

[Forbush-Man]

[Forbush-Man]

Oh,and Terror Illustrated rules!

 

You the man Kieth!

[Forbush-Man]

I could see including Spectacular Spider-Man # 1, but it would have to bump off one of the books from the current Top 10 to qualify. The second issue is common and doesn't warrant being in the Top 10, IMHO.

 

Did I mention Terror Illustrated rules?