Let's do a top 10

[precodekeith]

It is a tough call. Because of my naiveness I would call Vampi as the leader of that pack. I think Vampi maybe should be #3

 

But on points Keith does have a point.

 

Um, Bounty, hate to call you on this but didn't you vote TERROR ILLUSTRATED at #2 and Vampi at #5 ??!!

[precodekeith]

[quote

 

I'm mystified as to how keith ranked vampi #1 at # 10.

Of course I am a huge Warren homer so I will confess to a biased position.

 

I agree bounty, Vampi#1 deserves to be higher.

 

Well, obviously there is some hub-bub over the "points" results, mostly to do with Vampi coming in at 4 instead of 3.

 

here's some food for thought:

Out of the 6 main contributors who listed a Top 10, 3 of you voted for Vampi at #3. Cool.

 

BUT : Terror Illustrated got 1 vote for # 1 ( and it WASN"T ME!) and TWO votes for # 2.

 

and my personal reason as to why I voted Vampi at #10 .... well, I could gripe all day about Creepy coming in at 2 over TI (read my TI defenses just to justify it getting ON this list), but I'm just dealing with the consensus. Here's what I think.....TI begat Creepy which eventually begat Eerie which eventually begat Vampi (basically). Get it? Sure, Vampi intro'd a character and deserves a place in the 10, no doubt. However, I had to put her somewhere!

 

AND: I had no idea when we initially listed our votes that I would "come up with" this points sytem. The only person who voted after knowing the point system was Raven. SO: don't be thinking I voted the way I did just to "keep Vampi down."

[interpreter11-migration]

It sounds like basically a consensus on the Top Ten with just the order changing from post to post; which suggests that aren't that many to choose from in the first place.

 

What about comics magazines that feature critical evaluation of the medium as opposed to comics just blown up to magazine size?

[RedRaven]

SO: don't be thinking I voted the way I did just to "keep Vampi down."

 

Keeping a sistah down!!

[precodekeith]

Keeping a sistah down!!

 

At least we can all still have fun in this forum, even when we agree to disagree!

[Jayman]

and my personal reason as to why I voted Vampi at #10 .... well, I could gripe all day about Creepy coming in at 2 over TI (read my TI defenses just to justify it getting ON this list), but I'm just dealing with the consensus. Here's what I think.....TI begat Creepy which eventually begat Eerie which eventually begat Vampi (basically). Get it? Sure, Vampi intro'd a character and deserves a place in the 10, no doubt. However, I had to put her somewhere!

 

Keith,

I understand your reasoning here but the way I see it is that just because a book begat...begetted?...paved the way for a proceeding book does not necessarily give it more importance IMHO. As an example of this think of HOS # 81 vs. HOS # 92. Even though issue 81 begat 92, I tend to think 92 would be the more important issue in this case. Now I know you used a point system but aren't we allowed to change our minds?

[precodekeith]

By all means feel free to change your minds!

 

But I have to ask: why wouldn't one vote the way they felt initially?

 

In the real world:

If you voted for Perot because that's who your heart was with, (and you thought deep down Bush 1 was going to win anyway, but he just wasn't worthy of your vote), BUT Bush 1 LOST to Clinton... who you don't like... you can't go back and change your vote to Bush 1 just because you don't want Clinton to win.... anyone following me with this ???

 

Anyway, this is not the real world..... but why did we bother voting if we were just going to disagree over the results and end up changing our votes to suit our initial personal opinions??

[RedRaven]

Keith, I think that we have arrived at a good list but I dont see why it is neccesary to consider that list as marked in stone and not subject to refinement...or at least continued discussion. For example ,as a self described Warren expert, I find it difficult to comprehend the placement of Creepy#1 ahead of Vampi #1. At the very least we can generate a few more posts for our forum

 

Seriously, I see a final phase whereby the list is refined based on a debate among the contributers.

[precodekeith]

Raven -

I see where you are coming from. My INITIAL impression though, was that the "refinement" was coming up with the rough Top 10, and the "solidified" phase was the voting for placement.

I have no beef with continuing on with this thread, frankly it is one of the more interesting threads on the board with some of the most intellectual (IMHO) forumites contributing. I do have my doubts that we will ever come to a 100% agreement on the specific order through debate, though. I just can't see it happening.....

That being said, I still think our books are a more than solid foundation for a legit Top 10.

[bounty_coder]

It is a tough call. Because of my naiveness I would call Vampi as the leader of that pack. I think Vampi maybe should be #3

 

But on points Keith does have a point.

 

Um, Bounty, hate to call you on this but didn't you vote TERROR ILLUSTRATED at #2 and Vampi at #5 ??!!

 

I dunno Did I? I also had Weird V1 #12 1966 as like rank #7, and that bad boy is no where to be found on this top ten.

 

Listen pre-code. Sometimes you must go beyond the bureaucracy and the guidelines and just do what feels right. I see what you mean and its a tough decision. Vampirella is a cultural icon. If anyone knows anything about magazines this character pops into thier heads, much more than Terror Illustrated would. But then again, if Terror Illustrated was the book that possibly paved the Idea (since as you say it was taken to printers as what creepy should look like by Warren) then that as well is a huge reason that it should be on the list. But when you think about it; Terror Illustrated fits the same forte that my Weird V1 #12 1966 had, and that was even though it was a pioneer in its feild; it just is not known by many....And it almost seems as where this list is heading, so that is my reasoning on the change.

[Forbush-Man]

But I have to ask: why wouldn't one vote the way they felt initially?

 

Then I vote for Vanilla!

 

 

,....I really like Vanilla!

[Forbush-Man]

Personally, I'd like to see the E.C. Terror Illustrated rated higher, but that's just me,...does that make me a bad guy?

 

Debate time?

[Jayman]

By all means feel free to change your minds!

 

But I have to ask: why wouldn't one vote the way they felt initially?

 

First of all I agree this is a thread I'm enjoying very much. Second, to answer your question; for the simple reason that someone might have a better reason one issue is more worthy than another. My first initial response (I believe) listed much more Skywald mags in it. After listening to yours and others more rational suggestions, I reevaluated my list based on better info, no more no less!

Maybe we should state again our reasoning for our decisions, as far as Vampirella being in the top 3 is concerned, there was a thread that debated the book that started the Bronze age, and while most agreed that it was Conan # 1 (comic) there was also a vote for Vampi # 1.

 

Part of a quote from theagenes that I happen to agree with in the thread:

What book started the Bronze Age of Comics?

 

There are three candidates, which I believe best fit some or all of these criteria (listed in chronological order): Vampirella no. 1 (first appearance of Vampirella; art by Adams), GL/GA no. 76 (beginning of more mature storytelling), and Conan the Barbarian no. 1 (first comic book appearance of Conan and Kull; art by Windsor-Smith).

 

Vampirella no. 1 is the earliest of these three, published in September 1969, but although it is the first comic work to fit the label of Bronze Age, it was in a B&W magazine format, and not a traditional comic book. One poster mentioned this book, but it was quickly dismissed because of the magazine format. It could be argued, however, that this fact works in its favor, since unusal formats are one of the characteristics of the Bronze Age.

[Jayman]

But I have to ask: why wouldn't one vote the way they felt initially?

 

Then I vote for Vanilla!

 

 

,....I really like Vanilla!

 

I like Vanilla too!

[Brock Samson-migration]

You know guys, there really should not be much of a debate about #1 and #2, Mad

24 and Vampi 1 are no-brainers. There are lots of good magazines to sort out after that however. EC Terror Illustrated really bothers me. I believe I read on this thread that this is the magazine that Jim Warren took to the printer when he was starting Creepy 1 and said I want my magazine to look just like this. Can anybody verify this. I mean I have read lots of material on Jim Warren and Warren Publishing and never come across that statment before. Furthermore, I find it very difficult to imagine that as egotistical and proud as JW is, that he took a Bill Gaines Mag to his printer and said I want to be just like this. I mean what exactly does this mean - he wanted a nice glossy cover? The printer has no say over art or story so I don't get it. I mean if the rationalization for putting EC Terror is that it drove Jim Warren to create Creepy (ahem..cough..cough) then shouldn't somebody verify it. I can't see any other reason this mag should rate so high and my personal opinion is that it discredits the whole list. Now I can appreciate the fact that this list is all about opinions, but EC Terror just seems to be an aberration compared to the other books on the list. 1 other item, has anybody considered Marvel's Spiderman mags (1, and 2) from the 60's (68, 69 I believe). I mean would not these be the first superhero mags? Should that rate for something? Nice painted covers also. Anyway, good thread, lets keep the debate going! Also I am a bit surprised that Blazing Combat #1 is not high on the list.. I mean honestly, If i found a high grade BC 1 I would take it over just about anything else on the list..not even many close seconds.

 

P.S. Ask any dealer about Vampi Hardcover and they will say something like "I have not seen one of those in 20 years." If rarity of a pub related to a high-profile character is a factor, this item should surely be considered..it is also one of the hottest bronze age books.

 

 

GO TEAM VENTURE!

[Forbush-Man]

 

Interesting argument for you picks.

[precodekeith]

.....even though it was a pioneer in its feild; it just is not known by many....And it almost seems as where this list is heading, so that is my reasoning on the change.

 

I getcha!

 

Like I said in an earlier post, it was initial my impression that the "refining" stage was where we would debate and whittle down to our basic list, and the "solidified" stage was when we were voting to pick our order of placement. Hence, some post-election hub-bub over the vote changing.... but it's all good now, me droogs!

[precodekeith]

You know guys, there really should not be much of a debate about #1 and #2, Mad

24 and Vampi 1 are no-brainers.

 

Actually Brock, there is plenty of room for debate apparently.

 

Mad probably gets #1, although I gotta applaud FUELMAN for sticking to his guns with Terror Illustrated... bold move, FUEL!

 

As for # 2, seems like the consensus here would be Creepy. Only RedRaven felt so far that Vampi should be 2.

[RedRaven]

Brock,

 

Ive posted my opinion on Vampirella 1's final ranking and I fully blame Keith for ranking it at #10 simply for the reason that he dislikes beautiful sexy women.

 

As for EC Terror Illustrated #1, I think it should be in the top 10 (maybe not quite so high) as it has an EC lineage , represents EC's final effort to continue its horror line despite the CCA,predates every other magazine on the list etc...

 

Blazing combat was one of my initial picks but I finally decided that it represents something akin to a one-shot from Warren. It wasnt terribly succesful and spawned no successors at Warren or any other publisher. I agree that as far as desirability goes, a VF or higher copy of Blazing Combat #1 trumps every item on this list (except Mad24) but that wasonly one factor we considered on this list.

 

Did anyone bring up the marvel SpiderMan mags??? Those are some uber-cool items and maybe shouldve made it into the top 10.

 

 

The one thing that sticks in my craw about our list is that Creepy#1 is ahead of Vampirella #1. Otherwise I'm fairly pleased.

[precodekeith]

I believe I read on this thread that this is the magazine that Jim Warren took to the printer when he was starting Creepy 1 and said I want my magazine to look just like this. Can anybody verify this.

 

I'm going off memory here, but no less of a source than AL Hewetson, I believe, for one.

 

AND IN WRITING he stated it no less!

 

Again, this is just from memory, I will try to dig out the mag where I read this, I believe it was in the back of a Skywald editorial. I've also heard it "spoken" at cons through the years, but there is no way to verify or validate spoken claims of that nature, granted.....

 

Knowing the egomania of Warren, if the written statement were untrue, I believe wholeheartedly Jim might have sued Al for libel! We're talking about a guy who demanded a "loyalty clause" from his contributors.....