AFA Scandal

[CBT]

calling them fakes is probably inaccurate. more like as was stated its an "authentic" franken toy, passed off as originals.

 

It certainly massively decreases their rarity, and so many going undetected and produced in such a perfect way will shake that whole hobby.

 

 

 

 

[Buzzetta]

My thoughts:

 

To Shadroch...

While not "fakes" per se, it comes down to the culture of that particular collecting community. What you say does indeed make a lot of sense and have merit. However, within that collecting community, IF the allegations are true, that collecting community looks upon it as a resealed figure as it was not assembled by the original production plant. Your view makes a lot of sense but that is how the SW collecting community views it.

 

Concerning AFA

CGC weathered a micro-trimming debacle. AFA will weather this as well. They will try to learn what they missed and try to find methods to identify it moving forward. Like, CGC they are the only real game in town. This is not an AFA issue, this is a really good forgery (for lack of a better word)

 

 

[Davenport]

" The claim is that authentic unused cardbacks, authentic unused bubbles and authentic mint figures were taken to a factory and assembled, perhaps using the same equipment the manufacturer would have used. They would be identical in all respects to a legit carded figure, except that they were assembled years later by someone other than the manufacturer. That is why many of these have or have likely made it past AFA. There's just no way to "date" when the bubble was attached to the card."

 

I would imagine proof of this could would do irreparable damage to that hobby.

Looks like they'll be facing a dilemma that's already been lost in the comic book collecting hobby.

In comics, as long as the parts are vintage the book-assembly could be up-to-the-moment modern, hot off the work bench, using any technique that can adequately mimic a vintage book.

 

Good luck to them though. Authenticity vs. monetary values can get real ugly real fast.

 

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

authentic unused cardbacks, authentic unused bubbles and authentic mint figures were taken to a factory and assembled, perhaps using the same equipment the manufacturer would have used.

 

I don't get it. If everything is 100% authentic, and was even assembled on the same equipment - then how are they fake? If the only thing that matters is when the bubble is attached to the card, that is just absurd.

Think of Married Cover - When a cover from one comic book is attached to another comic book.

An example is what if somebody bought a authentic coverless AF #15,then had some factory attach a authentic AF#15 cover to the authentic AF#15 coverless comic book, then CGC mistakenly would give it a authentic blue label? Not good.

That`s why the Star Wars action figure collectors are upset.

 

[Davenport]

Concerning AFA

CGC weathered a micro-trimming debacle. AFA will weather this as well. They will try to learn what they missed and try to find methods to identify it moving forward. Like, CGC they are the only real game in town. This is not an AFA issue, this is a really good forgery (for lack of a better word)

There's a tried & true 2-step formula AFA could use:

Issue a press release declaring it "undetectable" and those complaining as "unreasonable purists" who hate AFA.

Done, and move on. Easy peasy.

 

[Anfield Fox]

authentic unused cardbacks, authentic unused bubbles and authentic mint figures were taken to a factory and assembled, perhaps using the same equipment the manufacturer would have used.

 

I don't get it. If everything is 100% authentic, and was even assembled on the same equipment - then how are they fake? If the only thing that matters is when the bubble is attached to the card, that is just absurd.

 

You are missing some things. I'm not even a vintage collector but just by thinking about it i came up with reasons it's not acceptable.

 

1). As i understand it the figures are used. Unlike comics if you are buying a sealed figures you expect it never to have been touched by human hands. Also and more importantly since it's sealed there is no telling what the condition of the back of the figure is. It could have all kinds of damage from being a used figure and no one would know.

 

2). The Vinyl Cape Jawa on a Pallitoy card is as i understand it the holy grail of Star Wars carded figure collecting. There are only a handful (less than 5 or 6) known to exist and it wasn't even confirmed to exist until a couple of years ago. Now it could just be that they are all fakes and it shouldn't even exist on that card. It would be like taking a AF 15 and putting on a copy of the unused Steve Ditko cover (if it were possible) and saying "hey look at this variant of AF 15 i just found!".

[batman_fan]

Concerning AFA

CGC weathered a micro-trimming debacle. AFA will weather this as well. They will try to learn what they missed and try to find methods to identify it moving forward. Like, CGC they are the only real game in town. This is not an AFA issue, this is a really good forgery (for lack of a better word)

There's a tried & true 2-step formula AFA could use:

Issue a press release declaring it "undetectable" and those complaining as "unreasonable purists" who hate AFA.

Done, and move on. Easy peasy.

 

it's just crazy enough to work

[Bronty]

authentic unused cardbacks, authentic unused bubbles and authentic mint figures were taken to a factory and assembled, perhaps using the same equipment the manufacturer would have used.

 

I don't get it. If everything is 100% authentic, and was even assembled on the same equipment - then how are they fake? If the only thing that matters is when the bubble is attached to the card, that is just absurd.

 

You are missing some things. I'm not even a vintage collector but just by thinking about it i came up with reasons it's not acceptable.

 

1). As i understand it the figures are used. Unlike comics if you are buying a sealed figures you expect it never to have been touched by human hands. Also and more importantly since it's sealed there is no telling what the condition of the back of the figure is. It could have all kinds of damage from being a used figure and no one would know.

 

2). The Vinyl Cape Jawa on a Pallitoy card is as i understand it the holy grail of Star Wars carded figure collecting. There are only a handful (less than 5 or 6) known to exist and it wasn't even confirmed to exist until a couple of years ago. Now it could just be that they are all fakes and it shouldn't even exist on that card. It would be like taking a AF 15 and putting on a copy of the unused Steve Ditko cover (if it were possible) and saying "hey look at this variant of AF 15 i just found!".

 

2) I'm not an action figure collector either but isn't more accurate to say these are the UK collectors' holy grails? I imagine a lot of US collectors could give a crepe.\

 

More importantly, it seems like this was known amongst some of the older collectors 20 years ago if you read through even part of that star wars forum thread if you follow the links from the OP. (ie the OP links to rebelscum links to star wars forum. And it appears to have been known to be an issue limited to specific cards.

 

If you are a Euro SW collector that collects the specific issues in play and you weren't aware of this, well, this sucks. For everyone else its a pretty big yawn.

 

I don't see it being that big a deal for AFA. I mean... vintage 1970s unused cardbacks and vintage 1970s unused bubbles assembled in the 1990s? That's a nasty piece of business to try and detect. I mean if you think about it what does cgc do when it comes to reassembly? They just give it the green light.

 

More importantly it appears to be limited to specific figures so there shouldn't be a confidence problem with the broad market as I see it.

[rjrjr]

authentic unused cardbacks, authentic unused bubbles and authentic mint figures were taken to a factory and assembled, perhaps using the same equipment the manufacturer would have used.

 

I don't get it. If everything is 100% authentic, and was even assembled on the same equipment - then how are they fake? If the only thing that matters is when the bubble is attached to the card, that is just absurd.

 

You are missing some things. I'm not even a vintage collector but just by thinking about it i came up with reasons it's not acceptable.

 

1). As i understand it the figures are used. Unlike comics if you are buying a sealed figures you expect it never to have been touched by human hands. Also and more importantly since it's sealed there is no telling what the condition of the back of the figure is. It could have all kinds of damage from being a used figure and no one would know.

 

2). The Vinyl Cape Jawa on a Pallitoy card is as i understand it the holy grail of Star Wars carded figure collecting. There are only a handful (less than 5 or 6) known to exist and it wasn't even confirmed to exist until a couple of years ago. Now it could just be that they are all fakes and it shouldn't even exist on that card. It would be like taking a AF 15 and putting on a copy of the unused Steve Ditko cover (if it were possible) and saying "hey look at this variant of AF 15 i just found!".

 

2) I'm not an action figure collector either but isn't more accurate to say these are the UK collectors' holy grails? I imagine a lot of US collectors could give a crepe.\

 

More importantly, it seems like this was known amongst some of the older collectors 20 years ago if you read through even part of that star wars forum thread if you follow the links from the OP. (ie the OP links to rebelscum links to star wars forum. And it appears to have been known to be an issue limited to specific cards.

 

If you are a Euro SW collector that collects the specific issues in play and you weren't aware of this, well, this sucks. For everyone else its a pretty big yawn.

 

I don't see it being that big a deal for AFA. I mean... vintage 1970s unused cardbacks and vintage 1970s unused bubbles assembled in the 1990s? That's a nasty piece of business to try and detect. I mean if you think about it what does cgc do when it comes to reassembly? They just give it the green light.

 

More importantly it appears to be limited to specific figures so there shouldn't be a confidence problem with the broad market as I see it.

 

 

I think the more troubling part for that community is someone has been able to seal the bubbles to the card backs without expensive equipment in such a way as to pass through AFA without detection. During the early part of the discussion, everyone was pretty adamant that it couldn't be done without the tools used at the Palitoy factory. Then, one of their boardies did a test and sealed a bubble to a cardback in such a way as to look perfect and now nobody is questioning it can be done without expensive equipment.

 

There are lots of unused, authentic Star Wars cardbacks floating around in peoples collections. This would trouble me as a sealed action figure collector knowing it can be done.

 

Are we immune to such scandals in the comic collecting community? We've had frauds perpetrated on us before (TMNT, Eerie, and even X-Men fakes, etc.) but are we immune to someone perpetrating a years long fraud? (It still has to be determined if there is really fraud with the carded figures, but it sounds like if there is, the fraud has been ongoing for 15 years.)

 

Don't worry, I'm not losing any sleep over it. Just wondering.

 

 

[Anfield Fox]

authentic unused cardbacks, authentic unused bubbles and authentic mint figures were taken to a factory and assembled, perhaps using the same equipment the manufacturer would have used.

 

I don't get it. If everything is 100% authentic, and was even assembled on the same equipment - then how are they fake? If the only thing that matters is when the bubble is attached to the card, that is just absurd.

 

You are missing some things. I'm not even a vintage collector but just by thinking about it i came up with reasons it's not acceptable.

 

1). As i understand it the figures are used. Unlike comics if you are buying a sealed figures you expect it never to have been touched by human hands. Also and more importantly since it's sealed there is no telling what the condition of the back of the figure is. It could have all kinds of damage from being a used figure and no one would know.

 

2). The Vinyl Cape Jawa on a Pallitoy card is as i understand it the holy grail of Star Wars carded figure collecting. There are only a handful (less than 5 or 6) known to exist and it wasn't even confirmed to exist until a couple of years ago. Now it could just be that they are all fakes and it shouldn't even exist on that card. It would be like taking a AF 15 and putting on a copy of the unused Steve Ditko cover (if it were possible) and saying "hey look at this variant of AF 15 i just found!".

 

2) I'm not an action figure collector either but isn't more accurate to say these are the UK collectors' holy grails? I imagine a lot of US collectors could give a crepe.\

 

More importantly, it seems like this was known amongst some of the older collectors 20 years ago if you read through even part of that star wars forum thread if you follow the links from the OP. (ie the OP links to rebelscum links to star wars forum. And it appears to have been known to be an issue limited to specific cards.

 

If you are a Euro SW collector that collects the specific issues in play and you weren't aware of this, well, this sucks. For everyone else its a pretty big yawn.

 

I don't see it being that big a deal for AFA. I mean... vintage 1970s unused cardbacks and vintage 1970s unused bubbles assembled in the 1990s? That's a nasty piece of business to try and detect. I mean if you think about it what does cgc do when it comes to reassembly? They just give it the green light.

 

More importantly it appears to be limited to specific figures so there shouldn't be a confidence problem with the broad market as I see it.

 

I think unlike comics, foreign cards on toys are actually collectible for their rarity. Even if not, you can bet if it's been done with the European cards then the potential is there for it to have been done on Kenner cards and not just with Star Wars but with G.I. Joe and other lines too. It could be huge for that hobby.

 

I find it interesting because of all the parallels with previous things that happened here on these boards with CGC and PGX.

[Heronext]

This story is really an indictment of the ridiculous value we place on material things. Also, anyone with an intimate knowledge of a hobby can find ways to take advantage of others. It takes integrity all around to keep the hobby pure, and hopefully those responsible will be shunned. This will be a painful lesson and experience for action figure collectors.

 

Someone mentioned the Mile High II hoard. The existence of this is the main reason I am not that interested in late 60s comics.

[Ogami]

Concerning AFA

CGC weathered a micro-trimming debacle. AFA will weather this as well. They will try to learn what they missed and try to find methods to identify it moving forward. Like, CGC they are the only real game in town. This is not an AFA issue, this is a really good forgery (for lack of a better word)

There's a tried & true 2-step formula AFA could use:

Issue a press release declaring it "undetectable" and those complaining as "unreasonable purists" who hate AFA.

Done, and move on. Easy peasy.

 

[Ogami]

The guy from Michigan, (our Dice analogue) gets away with murder over there. (On the UK/German board)

 

[Catwomancomics]

If someone were to discover tens of thousands of unused Marvel covers, tens of thousands of non-distributed Marvel comics that never had covers or staples, and put them together using vintage staples, I would consider them authentic. Marrying an unused cover to a book that had previously had a cover is not nearly the same thing.

To me, when the items were made is much more important than when they were assembled. If all the parts are authentic, I don't see how the sum of it can be fake.

 

IMO they would be fake...... They did not with stand the distribution process or the handling by others through this process. They never made it to the stores and were never on the shelves. This is why the originals have the value that collectors are willing to pay.

 

You are describing every file copy in existence, as well as the entire Mile High 2 collection.

 

I was referring to the action figures, not comic books.

[Pete Marino]

Concerning AFA

CGC weathered a micro-trimming debacle. AFA will weather this as well. They will try to learn what they missed and try to find methods to identify it moving forward. Like, CGC they are the only real game in town. This is not an AFA issue, this is a really good forgery (for lack of a better word)

There's a tried & true 2-step formula AFA could use:

Issue a press release declaring it "undetectable" and those complaining as "unreasonable purists" who hate AFA.

Done, and move on. Easy peasy.

 

 

So, this will basically be the action figure version of pressing? Sounds like fun!

 

[COI]

authentic unused cardbacks, authentic unused bubbles and authentic mint figures were taken to a factory and assembled, perhaps using the same equipment the manufacturer would have used.

 

I don't get it. If everything is 100% authentic, and was even assembled on the same equipment - then how are they fake? If the only thing that matters is when the bubble is attached to the card, that is just absurd.

 

Collecting is absurd. The value attached to these intrinsically worthless objects has little to do with logic and everything to do with nostalgia. Even if assembled with authentic parts the disingenuous construction drastically effects a collector's appraisal of the nostalgic significance of the item.

 

This is the best response.

[Pirate]

If someone were to discover tens of thousands of unused Marvel covers, tens of thousands of non-distributed Marvel comics that never had covers or staples, and put them together using vintage staples, I would consider them authentic. Marrying an unused cover to a book that had previously had a cover is not nearly the same thing.

To me, when the items were made is much more important than when they were assembled. If all the parts are authentic, I don't see how the sum of it can be fake.

 

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

Some people are dumping these on eBay now without mentioning the scandal as to why.

[conditionfreak]

This all fits in nicely with what I have said a couple of times here on this forum, over the past few years.

 

"If you think that games are not being played with this professional grading stuff. You are sadly mistaken. Forgeries, outright lies, and favoritism exist. It is human nature to fudge and finagle when it comes to money".

[retrothecollector]

I have to step in as a ex-vintage carded SW figure collector, and say that this is a big mess for the SW toy collecting community.

 

Whatever is happening with these people re-carding vintage figures is atrocious.

 

I have had over 30 action figures carded and luckily they were real. I know this because I spent countless hours comparing, referencing, researching, going to cons, and whatever else I could find. The smell of the card, the look of the bubbles, the look of the tape, the look of the figures. I have since sold my carded collection and have replaced them with loose SW vintage figures, because I too felt that these were toys that needed to be played with. I can touch a comic and open it and read it, but with figures it's different they're trapped in the bubble.

 

But there are major high end figures that collectors would love to own and most of them must be carded. And I respect that. If they were to find out after spending $8000 on a carded vinyl cape jawa, that it was re-carded in someone's warehouse, they would poop a brick.

 

Just because the cards and bubbles are from the era of when the toys were made, DOES NOT mean they are the real thing!!! It doesn't take a genius to figure this out. Unless you know NOTHING about collecting anything!!!

 

Whoever thinks this, must stay completely away from selling anything, and just stick to collecting. This makes me so mad......

 

I hope it gets straightened out by AFA and true collectors.