AFA Scandal

[joecgcmaniac]

If someone were to discover tens of thousands of unused Marvel covers, tens of thousands of non-distributed Marvel comics that never had covers or staples, and put them together using vintage staples, I would consider them authentic. Marrying an unused cover to a book that had previously had a cover is not nearly the same thing.

To me, when the items were made is much more important than when they were assembled. If all the parts are authentic, I don't see how the sum of it can be fake.

 

[jaeldubyoo]

authentic unused cardbacks, authentic unused bubbles and authentic mint figures were taken to a factory and assembled, perhaps using the same equipment the manufacturer would have used.

 

I don't get it. If everything is 100% authentic, and was even assembled on the same equipment - then how are they fake? If the only thing that matters is when the bubble is attached to the card, that is just absurd.

 

 

As a collector and former shop owner, you should know that that isn't true.

 

So by your line of thinking, it would be okay to take pieces of a comic from different sources, put it together using the original machines, and sell it as authentic?

 

 

First, let me say, I don't know anything about toy collecting. I don't collect toys. But I am curious about how prices are affected by this. Just the fact that some are dumping their figures tells me "authenticity" does matter.

 

Aside from the "authenticity" issue (for those who don't care), wouldn't prices be affected anyway if you know that these figures are not as rare as previously thought? Or that some more might be manufactured?

[Pete Marino]

If someone were to discover tens of thousands of unused Marvel covers, tens of thousands of non-distributed Marvel comics that never had covers or staples, and put them together using vintage staples, I would consider them authentic. Marrying an unused cover to a book that had previously had a cover is not nearly the same thing.

To me, when the items were made is much more important than when they were assembled. If all the parts are authentic, I don't see how the sum of it can be fake.

 

 

[the420kid]

so the figures got the old facejob eh? not surprising in the least.

 

Luckily this is a small segment of a much larger market >> Palitoy and German General Mills 'mint on card'

[Catwomancomics]

If someone were to discover tens of thousands of unused Marvel covers, tens of thousands of non-distributed Marvel comics that never had covers or staples, and put them together using vintage staples, I would consider them authentic. Marrying an unused cover to a book that had previously had a cover is not nearly the same thing.

To me, when the items were made is much more important than when they were assembled. If all the parts are authentic, I don't see how the sum of it can be fake.

 

IMO they would be fake. They were never assembled by the manufacture and not intended to be distributed. They did not with stand the distribution process or the handling by others through this process. They never made it to the stores and were never on the shelves. This is why the originals have the value that collectors are willing to pay. The originals did go through all of that. Where did these cards and blister packs come from? I would guess from and employee that worked in the factory. Did they purchase them? I would think that they were not purchased or just given to them unless they were high up in management.

[Tony S]

If someone were to discover tens of thousands of unused Marvel covers, tens of thousands of non-distributed Marvel comics that never had covers or staples, and put them together using vintage staples, I would consider them authentic. Marrying an unused cover to a book that had previously had a cover is not nearly the same thing.

To me, when the items were made is much more important than when they were assembled. If all the parts are authentic, I don't see how the sum of it can be fake.

 

 

 

 

Well I don't know if it's fair to call your example authentic or not. Your definition of authentic is hinging on a technicality. But I certainly would value it a great deal less. If it didn't get printed and assembled at World Color Press in the summer of 1962 at the same time all of the other AF15's were printed, it's not the same thing.

 

Your example has as much in common with a second printing as it does with an original. Assembled months or years later - even if they did use some left over parts from the original print run. It's still a later edition. And not worth as much.

[shadroch]

I'm not arguing about their worth, I'm saying they are not fakes. I would not pay as much for one if I knew it were from the later group, but if the card is authentic, the figure is authentic, the bubbles are authentic, the glue is authentic and the machines used were the same, how is one to know which is which and when they were assembled.

[shadroch]

If someone were to discover tens of thousands of unused Marvel covers, tens of thousands of non-distributed Marvel comics that never had covers or staples, and put them together using vintage staples, I would consider them authentic. Marrying an unused cover to a book that had previously had a cover is not nearly the same thing.

To me, when the items were made is much more important than when they were assembled. If all the parts are authentic, I don't see how the sum of it can be fake.

 

IMO they would be fake...... They did not with stand the distribution process or the handling by others through this process. They never made it to the stores and were never on the shelves. This is why the originals have the value that collectors are willing to pay.

 

You are describing every file copy in existence, as well as the entire Mile High 2 collection.

[dgillock]

If someone were to discover tens of thousands of unused Marvel covers, tens of thousands of non-distributed Marvel comics that never had covers or staples, and put them together using vintage staples, I would consider them authentic. Marrying an unused cover to a book that had previously had a cover is not nearly the same thing.

To me, when the items were made is much more important than when they were assembled. If all the parts are authentic, I don't see how the sum of it can be fake.

 

I think what is being missed here is whether they are looked upon by the collectors as "real" or "fake", it hurts the market either way. This is how I see it:

 

First, keep in mind that carded figures of this era or basically miracles. They are not supposed to exist. Toys were meant to be played with and they can not be played with in the package. NM vintage comics are very special too, but keep in mind that one can read a comic carefully and it can stay NM. You can't do that with a packaged toy. This is why packaged toys, especially carded toys where opening them basically destroys the package (unlike a box) are so desirable and coveted.

 

So, this can go two ways -- if the collectors accept these as "real" then it greatly increases the supply of "real" carded figures and drives down the individual value. It would likely also push down the value of the loose examples too as the ceiling would be lowered. Maybe think if it like a big warehouse find of an otherwise desirable comic.

 

The other way it could go is that these are perceived as "fake". This is only going to benefit the market if they can be consistently differentiated from the actual vintage carded examples. The impression I get is that this is a problem, hence the scandal. So instead you have a hidden population of fakes that generally undermines the confidence of the buyers at the top end of a hobby. This also would have a trickle down affect on lesser examples (loose or whatever) as again, the ceiling gets lowered. Maybe this is like some sort of undetectable color touch or trimming on comics.

 

So, from my view this is a big old mess with nothing but bad out in front. I guess the only hope it that someone can figure out how to consistently differentiate.

[cousin itt]

The theory (and it's only a theory at this point) is that these cardbacks were rejects that were meant to be disposed of, but weren't.

 

The figures on these cards (again, if the theory is correct) are NOT unused figures - they are being bought off of ebay. Prior to the existence of ebay, they could have been bought at conventions and the like.

 

And it's not only AFA that may (or may not) have overlooked these - UKG may (or may not) have as well.

[dgillock]

Also, did anyone catch any mention of there being evidence of there being "post-production" examples of the regular US Kenner issues?

[Tony S]

I'm not arguing about their worth, I'm saying they are not fakes. I would not pay as much for one if I knew it were from the later group, but if the card is authentic, the figure is authentic, the bubbles are authentic, the glue is authentic and the machines used were the same, how is one to know which is which and when they were assembled.

 

Well, if you are not debating their worth, then we don't really disagree. (thumbs u

 

You agree the later "version" would be worth less. So if someone goes in and "creates" a new supply of these collectibles at a later date and passes them off as the first version - that is fraudulent. Because they know most collectors would assign more value to the earlier, original assembled versions.

 

It's still a scam. Collectors didn't get what they thought they were getting. And I don't know how you would tell them apart. Not the toys mentioned - nor your hypothetical AF 15s

[asteroid-comix]

Calling Comicwiz... Calling Comicwiz

 

He posted about it on the rebelscum forum. He's got a pretty sweet Boba Fett carded figure that may or may not be impacted.

 

Not comics but AFA (Action Figure Authority) looks like it's been caught up in an Ewert type scandal.

 

25,000 Vintage Star Wars cards from the UK and Germany being passed off as originals. The vinyl cape Jawa for example on a UK card is a $15,000 figure that and it might be fake (didn't read all of it).

 

http://www.rebelscum.com/story/front/eBay_Today_1389_A_Warning_About_Well_Done_Fake_Palitoy_General_Mills_Carded_Figures_155841.asp

 

Vinyl Cape Jawa UK card

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-24611261

 

 

The issue isn't with every AFA graded figure and I think the Jawa carded figure that you posted would be legit. The issue seems to be with figures on Empire Strikes Back carded figures with 45 figures displayed on the back (German/General Mills/Palitoy).

 

What I've read points to Toy Tony having got about 25k cards and blisters and filling them with mint loose figures over the years. So yeah, they are fake. It would be like a married book in our world having been passed off as unrestored/unmolested.

 

 

 

 

[The-Collector]

authentic unused cardbacks, authentic unused bubbles and authentic mint figures were taken to a factory and assembled, perhaps using the same equipment the manufacturer would have used.

 

I don't get it. If everything is 100% authentic, and was even assembled on the same equipment - then how are they fake? If the only thing that matters is when the bubble is attached to the card, that is just absurd.

 

Collecting is absurd. The value attached to these intrinsically worthless objects has little to do with logic and everything to do with nostalgia. Even if assembled with authentic parts the disingenuous construction drastically effects a collector's appraisal of the nostalgic significance of the item.

[cousin itt]

 

Also, did anyone catch any mention of there being evidence of there being "post-production" examples of the regular US Kenner issues?

 

Are you referring to the one with the palitoy sticker on it? As I take it, that only indicates that palitoy sometimes used kenner cards, not that any kenner cards as yet have been sucked into this problem.

[asteroid-comix]

Also, did anyone catch any mention of there being evidence of there being "post-production" examples of the regular US Kenner issues?

 

Are you referring to the one with the palitoy sticker on it? As I take it, that only indicates that palitoy sometimes used kenner cards, not that any kenner cards as yet have been sucked into this problem.

I've not seen anyone link kenner cards as yet.

[cousin itt]

Collecting is absurd. The value attached to these intrinsically worthless objects has little to do with logic and everything to do with nostalgia. Even if assembled with authentic parts the disingenuous construction drastically effects a collector's appraisal of the nostalgic significance of the item.

 

Ummmm.... then why are you hoarding all the infinity gems?!?!

[The-Collector]

Collecting is absurd. The value attached to these intrinsically worthless objects has little to do with logic and everything to do with nostalgia. Even if assembled with authentic parts the disingenuous construction drastically effects a collector's appraisal of the nostalgic significance of the item.

 

Ummmm.... then why are you hoarding all the infinity gems?!?!

 

I can't help it. I have a problem.

[jaybuck43]

He only has one at this point....

[Caddotx]

Collecting is absurd. The value attached to these intrinsically worthless objects has little to do with logic and everything to do with nostalgia. Even if assembled with authentic parts the disingenuous construction drastically effects a collector's appraisal of the nostalgic significance of the item.

 

Ummmm.... then why are you hoarding all the infinity gems?!?!

 

I can't help it. I have a problem.

 

Well, you've taken the first step!