Upgrading or Downgrading or None

[Mr. Zipper]

there has been a great movement in the last two years in collectors "buying the book and not the label" and this whole page quality thing is an example of the exact opposite.

 

I've seen OW/W paged CGC 9.4s with average gloss and faint discoloration bring premiums, but their CRM/OW cousins (which often times are just as nice) get relegated to second-class citizen status.

 

Agreed. Before I came to these forums, the only page quality I really paid attention to is brown, brittle or heavily tanned. As long as the pages are supple, soft, and don't smell acidic, I'm not going to lose sleep over the hairline differentiation between "off-white" and "cream."

 

Given pages that were off white and light cream, I highly doubt most people here could even tell the difference unless they put the pages next to each other to compare.

[FFB]

chipping sucks and is to be avoided...like cream pages. theyre both hard to unload too.

 

Tell me about it. Cream to Off White is the kiss of death unless the book is a pedigree, in which case they can move a little more quickly than molasses flows in January.

 

You know, I think of all the nonsensical decisions people make when it comes to CGC grades (ex: "50 times Guide for a 9.9? Gotta have it!"), avoiding books because of the Cream to Off-White page designation is among the most foolish. I've recently picked up a couple of Gorgeous books that have CRM/OW pages at well below market prices, and couldn't be more thrilled.

 

As long as the book shows no severe exterior discoloration or toning, I think CRM/OW books are among the best deals around for Silver Age! In fact, I find that CRM/OW books tend to be more strictly graded for some reason. Having personally submitted books from the same OO collection that come back with page quality ranging from CRM/OW to White, I still have no idea how CGC makes the PQ determination, and thus, know that many CRM/OW books could have easily passed for something higher. (Plus there is always the whole "RESUB Roulette" game to play if you're a gambling man).

 

But, no worries, keep avoiding those books fellas...I'll take 'em!

 

Presuming that page quality has been accurately assessed, there is a very good reason why cream to off-white pages are less valuable in a real sense. Paper life is one of the most important qualities in a comic book because once paper becomes brittle, the book is essentially uncollectible. You can't even open it without breaking pieces off the book.

 

Somewhere in the front of Gerber's Photojournals is a chart showing the lifetime of paper. By the time paper gets to cream, it is past "middle age" and is on the downswing of its useful life. The fact that paper has aged to the point where it is cream colored likely means that it is relatively highly acidic and is becoming more acidic at a rapid rate because of the "chain reaction" of acid hydrolysis occurring in the paper, which results in further fracturing of the longer cellulose chains and makes the paper increasingly brown and brittle.

 

Paper whiteness can be "repaired" by bleaching it, but paper freshness (i.e., repairing the fractured cellulose chain) cannot. And bleaching, of course, can harm the paper even while it makes it whiter.

 

Now, all of this when applied to CGC graded books presumes that CGC has accurately noted the page quality. Personally, I don't think that there is much of a difference between CR-OW and straight OW, and so I am less likely to spend a premium on a HG book if it has OW pages.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Now, all of this when applied to CGC graded books presumes that CGC has accurately noted the page quality. Personally, I don't think that there is much of a difference between CR-OW and straight OW, and so I am less likely to spend a premium on a HG book if it has OW pages.

 

And therein lies the rub...if a CRM/OW CGC book doesn't have obvious evidence of page darkening/toning/tanning on the front or back covers, I regard it as "no big deal".

 

I understand the whole page quality issue, and like I said, used to be a strict OW/W or White only guy too, because I thought the label was always right. But I know it isn't, and just like most collectors nowadays are no longer willing to buy a CGC 9.4 or 9.2 without the benefit of a scan, the attitude towards sharp CGC CRM/OWers may yet change.

[fantastic_four]

Somewhere in the front of Gerber's Photojournals is a chart showing the lifetime of paper. By the time paper gets to cream, it is past "middle age" and is on the downswing of its useful life. The fact that paper has aged to the point where it is cream colored likely means that it is relatively highly acidic and is becoming more acidic at a rapid rate because of the "chain reaction" of acid hydrolysis occurring in the paper, which results in further fracturing of the longer cellulose chains and makes the paper increasingly brown and brittle.

 

I think you mean this graph:

 

 

I never could figure out why he graphed 60-year old books at off-white or worse even if stored in NITROGEN...he owned many of the Mile Highs which contradict the graph since they were stored in "cool/dry" conditions and should be brown by the time Gerber himself got to them if the graph was at all accurate.

 

Does anyone still use deacidification to reverse the acidic "chain reaction" you refer to? I wonder if deacidification is detectable?

[FFB]

Somewhere in the front of Gerber's Photojournals is a chart showing the lifetime of paper. By the time paper gets to cream, it is past "middle age" and is on the downswing of its useful life. The fact that paper has aged to the point where it is cream colored likely means that it is relatively highly acidic and is becoming more acidic at a rapid rate because of the "chain reaction" of acid hydrolysis occurring in the paper, which results in further fracturing of the longer cellulose chains and makes the paper increasingly brown and brittle.

 

I think you mean this graph:

 

 

I never could figure out why he graphed 60-year old books at off-white or worse even if stored in NITROGEN...he owned many of the Mile Highs which contradict the graph since they were stored in "cool/dry" conditions and should be brown by the time Gerber himself got to them if the graph was at all accurate.

 

Does anyone still use deacidification to reverse the acidic "chain reaction" you refer to? I wonder if deacidification is detectable?

 

No, the one I was talking about was like a clock. Cream was in the 7 o'clock position or something like that.

 

I am with you on your puzzlement about the chart -- although I'm not sure that nitrogen and cool air alone will stop newsprint from breaking down, since neither of them will stop acids from forming in a comic book. They just slow down the process.

 

Deacidification does not reverse the acid chain reaction. It just stops it or slows it down greatly.

 

Deacidification is used by many libraries and is performed by the Library of Congress on certain of the paper artifacts in its collection, including its comic books. Look here for the article from the LOC. I asked Tracey Heft about this, and he said he does not recommend it because not enough is yet known about how deacidified books will perform over the course of decades. He warned about a deacidified book's propensity to absorb atmospheric pollutants at a rate faster than a book that hasn't been deacidified. These pollutants, such as nitrogen dioxide and sulphur dioxide, combine with moisture in the air to form nitric acid and sulphuric acid, and will break down paper over time. The question is whether and to what extent the alkaline reserve will continue to neutralize these acids (and the other acids in the paper) as they form. Personally, I tend to trust the LOC on this one.

 

Deacidification is "detectible" by checking the pH of an item and comparing it with the prior pH or with what you'd expect the pH to be on a browning piece of newsprint. I do not know what tests there are to detect the actual presence of the alkaline component, but I am sure they're out there. I am equally sure that CGC doesn't run any chemical tests to look for it.

[fantastic_four]

No, the one I was talking about was like a clock. Cream was in the 7 o'clock position or something like that.

 

Ah! I hadn't paid much attention to that one for a while:

 

[shrunkenhead]

Hmmm.....well, according to that clock, you could still have a nice-looking comic with cr/ow pages for 200+ years, under proper storage conditions. So I think I'm with jiveturkey on this one. I'm not about to toss my cr/ow books, or cease to buy them at great prices for fear that they won't last another 300 years. I mean, hey, the human body won't last 1/3 that time frame. It seems kinda silly not to buy a comic at a bargain price because it won't last a day over 220 years after I'm dead.

 

I know we all love comics and all, but do we now privilege the preservation of our bodies less than that of our paper collectibles? If so, I'll cancel that cryogenics/head-freezing program I signed up for last month.

 

Unless, of course, I'm reading the clock wrong. I never could get the hang of those pie charts and line graphs in junior high.

[FFB]

I don't think that's what the clock says.

 

Hmmm.....well, according to that clock, you could still have a nice-looking comic with cr/ow pages for 200+ years, under proper storage conditions. So I think I'm with jiveturkey on this one. I'm not about to toss my cr/ow books, or cease to buy them at great prices for fear that they won't last another 300 years. I mean, hey, the human body won't last 1/3 that time frame. It seems kinda silly not to buy a comic at a bargain price because it won't last a day over 220 years after I'm dead.

 

I know we all love comics and all, but do we now privilege the preservation of our bodies less than that of our paper collectibles? If so, I'll cancel that cryogenics/head-freezing program I signed up for last month.

 

Unless, of course, I'm reading the clock wrong. I never could get the hang of those pie charts and line graphs in junior high.

[namisgr]

The clock illustrates an interesting idea, but it is just that - someone's (Gerber's) speculation. I know of no genuine data that define the "aging curve" of comic book paper. Experiments could certainly be done to simulate paper aging, but I have a feeling it would be very difficult to obtain federal support for such research!

 

I, too, have a few C/OW books that I am very happy with. For one thing, there is often a marked divergence between the color preservation quality of the covers and the interior pages. There are C/OW books with stunning cover colors, and OW/W books with dust shadows or obvious yellowing on their covers. For another, I am of the opinion that CGC varies in its page quality grading. There were plenty of old labels with C/OW pages, but for awhile when the switch occurred to new labels, there seemed to be very few C/OW designations around. Now, it seems to have made a comeback. Hey, if numerical grading can be a little bit tighter or looser over time, so can page quality grading.

[FFB]

The clock illustrates an interesting idea, but it is just that - someone's (Gerber's) speculation. I know of no genuine data that define the "aging curve" of comic book paper. Experiments could certainly be done to simulate paper aging, but I have a feeling it would be very difficult to obtain federal support for such research!

 

I, too, have a few C/OW books that I am very happy with. For one thing, there is often a marked divergence between the color preservation quality of the covers and the interior pages. There are C/OW books with stunning cover colors, and OW/W books with dust shadows or obvious yellowing on their covers. For another, I am of the opinion that CGC varies in its page quality grading. There were plenty of old labels with C/OW pages, but for awhile when the switch occurred to new labels, there seemed to be very few C/OW designations around. Now, it seems to have made a comeback. Hey, if numerical grading can be a little bit tighter or looser over time, so can page quality grading.

 

On the paper aging issue for newsprint, I believe that this research has been done by the LOC. It's just that only snippets and summaries of bits of it have been posted on the internet, so we don't get the full story. I think I'll send an email to the conservationists at the LOC in the next week or so to see if they can send me some hard data on newsprint accelerated aging tests. It would be enlightening to see those test results.

 

On the CGC page quality issue, I couldn't agree more about the variances. That's why I qualified my discussion by stating that my resistance to C-OW or worse PQ presumes that CGC graded the PQ correctly. I think they do a good job overall, but man, talk about an area where it just has to be tough to remain consistent.

 

Your point about dust shadows, etc., on books with OW or better PQ is also a good one that shouldn't get lost in a discussion about PQ. The appearance of the cover should not take a back seat to PQ -- it is equally important in my opinion. Given a choice between a book with true C-OW pages and a cover with nice gloss and no dust/sun shadows, tanning, or browning versus a book with OW or better PQ that has some significant exterior and interior cover tanning or a bad dust shadow, I would select the more presentable book every time -- especially since cover tanning indicates that the edges of the cover will likely become brittle if the degradation isn't arrested.

[fantastic_four]

I know we all love comics and all, but do we now privilege the preservation of our bodies less than that of our paper collectibles?

 

I know I do. I feed my comics nothing but salads, veggies, and chicken, but I stuff myself full of pizza, barbecue, potato chips, and other junk food. I'm a big health-sinner, but though I may die, at least my COMICS will live on!!!!

[tth2]

Definitely 1. As the saying goes, "The madness begins at 9.6." I just picked up GL 17 and 19 in 9.6, and sold my 9.4 copies.

[sfilosa]

Definitely 1. As the saying goes, "The madness begins at 9.6." I just picked up GL 17 and 19 in 9.6, and sold my 9.4 copies

 

Someone actually paid you money for your 9.4 copies?

 

Actually, feel free to share with us your new baby 9.6's when they arrive.

[burntboy]

Definitely 1. As the saying goes, "The madness begins at 9.6." I just picked up GL 17 and 19 in 9.6, and sold my 9.4 copies

 

Someone actually paid you money for your 9.4 copies?

 

Actually, feel free to share with us your new baby 9.6's when they arrive.

 

absolutely would love to see those babies..........

[PovertyRow]

On the paper aging issue for newsprint, I believe that this research has been done by the LOC. It's just that only snippets and summaries of bits of it have been posted on the internet, so we don't get the full story. I think I'll send an email to the conservationists at the LOC in the next week or so to see if they can send me some hard data on newsprint accelerated aging tests. It would be enlightening to see those test results.

 

Woot! It would be interesting to see their reply!!!

 

See if you can get the criteria for their accelerated tests. I know of a couple of processes that had, in theory, gone through such tests: VPD and a Sviet-developed spray for newsprint. (Scott -apologize but have lost me references to the Soviet test but remember it vividly)..

 

So anyway, VPD was supposed to be a readily available and do-it-yourself thing. Just slip some VPD paper into your book. Unfortunately, it caused color changes and ended up providing no long term de-acidification.

 

The Soviet-developed spray had been tested to VERY good results, along with accelerated ageing tests. All the newspapaers tested remained bright and white...until the time when a fairly rapid deterioration occurred and the newspapers started turning yellow and brittle. They reached the point where they failed a double-fold test.

 

I don't believe in de-acidification for newsprint. It is fragile enough at "birth". I'd prefer proper storage conditions to just slow the breakdown of the cellulose fibers.(Which will work). At least, in this way, nothing foreign that may prove detrimental, has been introduced.

[fantastic_four]

See if you can get the criteria for their accelerated tests.

 

Don't they just stick documents in a microwave oven for a few hours?

[FFB]

Definitely 1. As the saying goes, "The madness begins at 9.6." I just picked up GL 17 and 19 in 9.6, and sold my 9.4 copies.

 

So that explains why you've been absent. You've been washing dishes at the local eatery as a second job to finance your recent purchases, eh?

[arexcrooke]

Neither,

being pretty new to the hobby, less than 2 years, i am still building my collection. I believe that I have about 4 dupes out of about 800 books. I decided early that I would not buy expensive books without getting them in grades that i would be perfectly happy with for as long as i collect. So, i wont buy expensive books in low grade just to have them. My lcs has a ton of g/vg avengers and thors that I need, but i refuse to buy them. If it aint close to 9.0, then i dont really think about buying it. So as far as silver/expensive books go, i am patient enough to wait for high grade. Now for the "high number" books at the end of Marvels v.1, i dont really worry about grade that much. I still wont buy if it looks too bad, but i wont pass one over if its not a 9.4. I wont buy them in the 6.0-7.0, but a decent looking vf is very fine to me.

[tth2]

Definitely 1. As the saying goes, "The madness begins at 9.6." I just picked up GL 17 and 19 in 9.6, and sold my 9.4 copies.

 

So that explains why you've been absent. You've been washing dishes at the local eatery as a second job to finance your recent purchases, eh?

 

Actually, I`m starting a new job on Monday, so having finished at the old place about 10 days ago, took the opportunity to take my first truly unplugged vacation (no emails, no internet, no voicemails, no phone calls) in 7 years.

[FFB]

Definitely 1. As the saying goes, "The madness begins at 9.6." I just picked up GL 17 and 19 in 9.6, and sold my 9.4 copies.

 

So that explains why you've been absent. You've been washing dishes at the local eatery as a second job to finance your recent purchases, eh?

 

Actually, I`m starting a new job on Monday, so having finished at the old place about 10 days ago, took the opportunity to take my first truly unplugged vacation (no emails, no internet, no voicemails, no phone calls) in 7 years.

 

What's the new gig? PM me if you want to avoid a thread hijack.

 

Congrats on the new job AND on the nice vacation.