Marvel to Abandon Brick-and-Mortar Bookstores

[dgarthwaite-migration]

I agree with this post 100%

 

 

Except the college level dialogue in 70's comics. I would at least hope college kids are able to handle a bit more than that.

 

I remember reading an issue of Marvel Tales and I had to go to a dictionary to find out what the word "albeit" means. It was definitely outside of my vocabulary.

 

Do you think 8 year old kids were using words like "abomination" or "uncanny" with mom and dad?

 

DG

[dupont2005]

Was checking Comichron to see what it had in the way of Direct Market trends.

 

Comic sales to comic stores

 

TPB growth is huge!

 

 

I think that's misleading. More TPB's are being released at higher price points. Some of the print runs are extremely low. Dollars and volume may be up, but I'd bet profit margins are lower than in the past.

 

DG

I've been finding them to be bargain priced more often than not, I just bought a 300+ page MAD hardcover for $10.

 

Yes, but these are Diamond numbers. Just because a retailer sold it to you at a bargain, doesn't mean the publisher sold it to Diamond at a bargain. That paints a terrible picture if Diamond's number are increasing while retailers are flushing them out with very little markup or possibly even at a loss.

 

DG

Okay, I got that one on sale. But the cover price of many these days seem like bargains as well. The Dark Horse Library Editions, the IDW TMNT oversized hardcovers, the Image Compendiums, cover price on these is great, and they can all be preordered at a discount. Just because a comic isn't sold for cover doesn't mean someone's taking a loss. What Amazon pays and what they presell for probably allows for a decent turnover.

[dgarthwaite-migration]

Was checking Comichron to see what it had in the way of Direct Market trends.

 

Comic sales to comic stores

 

TPB growth is huge!

 

 

I think that's misleading. More TPB's are being released at higher price points. Some of the print runs are extremely low. Dollars and volume may be up, but I'd bet profit margins are lower than in the past.

 

DG

I've been finding them to be bargain priced more often than not, I just bought a 300+ page MAD hardcover for $10.

 

Yes, but these are Diamond numbers. Just because a retailer sold it to you at a bargain, doesn't mean the publisher sold it to Diamond at a bargain. That paints a terrible picture if Diamond's number are increasing while retailers are flushing them out with very little markup or possibly even at a loss.

 

DG

Okay, I got that one on sale. But the cover price of many these days seem like bargains as well. The Dark Horse Library Editions, the IDW TMNT oversized hardcovers, the Image Compendiums, cover price on these is great, and they can all be preordered at a discount. Just because a comic isn't sold for cover doesn't mean someone's taking a loss. What Amazon pays and what they presell for probably allows for a decent turnover.

 

The markup above the wholesale price must cover overhead (rent/labor/utilities/website maintenance/theft/damage/shipping charges etc.). If a store is selling a TPB with a $15.99 cover price, it's probably costing them about $8.80. At least that's what the discount used to be. If they sell it for $9.00, they've put time and money into acquiring the product and took a loss on it. Some retailers try to work on volume to make up the difference, but the biggest problem publishers and comic shops are facing is that order volume is already too low.

 

DG

[Ares]

 

Do we really need another comic with heroes doing nothing and just staring at potential buyers?

 

Is there any reason for me to want a comic with a cover like that?DG

Covers rarely have anything to do with story inside

[dgarthwaite-migration]

 

Do we really need another comic with heroes doing nothing and just staring at potential buyers?

 

Is there any reason for me to want a comic with a cover like that?DG

Covers rarely have anything to do with story inside

 

Exactly! The cover is a tool to sell a comic. They aren't using the tool.

 

Trying to increase sales without using the cover is like trying to build a house without a hammer. It's a LOT more difficult.

 

DG

[bb8]

 

Do we really need another comic with heroes doing nothing and just staring at potential buyers?

 

Is there any reason for me to want a comic with a cover like that?DG

Covers rarely have anything to do with story inside

 

He wouldn't know. He's an expert on moderns without having to ever crack a book.

[Tony S]

rj & DG - I really like what both of you are saying. I think both of you are mostly agreeing with each other.

 

The publishers - especially the big two - are letting the market for comic books slowly shrink and die. Because today - this year - they can make the most and easiest money selling ever more expensive comics directly to comic shops for purchase by people that consider themselves collectors.

 

Just as DG says, to expand the readership base the publishers would need to get comics out to the general public (Walmart, grocery and drug stores) and reduce prices.

 

Think about it. Even if a 13 year old leaves the Avengers movie all pumped up and wants to read some of the comics - he/she has to get himself to a comic book store. He can't go with his one of his parents to the grocery store and spot an issue on a spinner rack that he asks for - or buys himself. And even were this young potential new customer to see the current issue of the Avengers on the rack, the $4 price point makes it beyond the "impulse" purchase that a comic book needs to be.

 

That young, new potential reader has to be motivated enough to convince someone to find and take him to a comic book store. And pay $4 for a single comic. So despite millions watching super hero movies, very few new readers.

 

Obviously Marvel doesn't feel it's worth the effort to reach such a new potential audience and sell them a comic for $1.50 or less. They made hundreds of millions on the movie.

 

Which really is why I no longer purchase new comics. If the publishers don't care about the product and it's long term viability - why should I?

What's wrong with going to the comic store?

 

Are you making a joke? If so, my apologies. And HA, HA!!

 

Otherwise.....

 

Nothing is wrong with going to a comic book store. For comic book collectors. Comic book collectors will seek out and find a store. We look for new stores. We look for a comic book store wherever we stay while on vacation.

 

My point is the publishers are doing nothing to bring in new readers. New readers whom might become collectors - if they were only exposed to comic books at a mainstream type retail experience.

 

Publishers have gotten lazy. It's easier to sell comics on a prepaid, non-returnable, print only the number of copies sold to "collectors" that are relatively insensitive to cover price. Lazy and shortsighted. My hypothetical 13 year old is not a collector and isn't going to even get exposed to comic books unless he goes to a comic book store.

 

It is much as DG said (I think it was DG. My apologies if wrong). Everyone in the chain wants someone else to pay for promoting and expanding comic book sales. Even "Free Comic Book Day" isn't really free. The publishers and Diamond still want the comic book shop to cover most of the costs. That "free" comic book cost the comic book store 35-50 cents. The publishers - companies making millions on movies, TV's and merchandising - want the local comic shop to pick up the cost of attracting new readers.

 

But anyway - I love my local comic shops. Just wish the publisher would reach out to potential readers the way the did the first 50-60 years they were in business. If they did that, we might see more people still in comic book stores. Instead we see fewer - and fewer comic book stores for that matter.

[dupont2005]

I agree with this post 100%

 

 

Except the college level dialogue in 70's comics. I would at least hope college kids are able to handle a bit more than that.

 

I remember reading an issue of Marvel Tales and I had to go to a dictionary to find out what the word "albeit" means. It was definitely outside of my vocabulary.

 

Do you think 8 year old kids were using words like "abomination" or "uncanny" with mom and dad?

 

DG

A big word doesn't mean great dialogue. I wasn't using ZOUNDS or EGAD or SHAZAM or EXCELSIOR either though. Some of these comics had less than fifteen words of dialogue per page. Lots of sound effects and punching though. That doesn't seem like college level literature to me.

[dupont2005]

Was checking Comichron to see what it had in the way of Direct Market trends.

 

Comic sales to comic stores

 

TPB growth is huge!

 

 

I think that's misleading. More TPB's are being released at higher price points. Some of the print runs are extremely low. Dollars and volume may be up, but I'd bet profit margins are lower than in the past.

 

DG

I've been finding them to be bargain priced more often than not, I just bought a 300+ page MAD hardcover for $10.

 

Yes, but these are Diamond numbers. Just because a retailer sold it to you at a bargain, doesn't mean the publisher sold it to Diamond at a bargain. That paints a terrible picture if Diamond's number are increasing while retailers are flushing them out with very little markup or possibly even at a loss.

 

DG

Okay, I got that one on sale. But the cover price of many these days seem like bargains as well. The Dark Horse Library Editions, the IDW TMNT oversized hardcovers, the Image Compendiums, cover price on these is great, and they can all be preordered at a discount. Just because a comic isn't sold for cover doesn't mean someone's taking a loss. What Amazon pays and what they presell for probably allows for a decent turnover.

 

The markup above the wholesale price must cover overhead (rent/labor/utilities/website maintenance/theft/damage/shipping charges etc.). If a store is selling a TPB with a $15.99 cover price, it's probably costing them about $8.80. At least that's what the discount used to be. If they sell it for $9.00, they've put time and money into acquiring the product and took a loss on it. Some retailers try to work on volume to make up the difference, but the biggest problem publishers and comic shops are facing is that order volume is already too low.

 

DG

What does that have to do with Amazon presales?

[dgarthwaite-migration]

I agree with this post 100%

 

 

Except the college level dialogue in 70's comics. I would at least hope college kids are able to handle a bit more than that.

 

I remember reading an issue of Marvel Tales and I had to go to a dictionary to find out what the word "albeit" means. It was definitely outside of my vocabulary.

 

Do you think 8 year old kids were using words like "abomination" or "uncanny" with mom and dad?

 

DG

A big word doesn't mean great dialogue. I wasn't using ZOUNDS or EGAD or SHAZAM or EXCELSIOR either though.

 

You are correct, but kids are still educated by the exposure and that makes parents proud enough to shell out a little more money on the product.

 

At one local comic shop years ago, a mom dropped her child off and she went shopping at a store nearby. About 40 minutes later the mom comes back and the kid says "mommy, please buy me this" and holds up a comic. The mom looks at the price and says "that's too expensive" (very loudly) and drags her sad kid out of the store. I guess she thought babysitters were too expensive also. The store manager was irate. He went off on a rant about how he was sick of parents using him as a babysitter when they had no intention of buying anything.

 

DG

[dgarthwaite-migration]

Was checking Comichron to see what it had in the way of Direct Market trends.

 

Comic sales to comic stores

 

TPB growth is huge!

 

 

I think that's misleading. More TPB's are being released at higher price points. Some of the print runs are extremely low. Dollars and volume may be up, but I'd bet profit margins are lower than in the past.

 

DG

I've been finding them to be bargain priced more often than not, I just bought a 300+ page MAD hardcover for $10.

 

Yes, but these are Diamond numbers. Just because a retailer sold it to you at a bargain, doesn't mean the publisher sold it to Diamond at a bargain. That paints a terrible picture if Diamond's number are increasing while retailers are flushing them out with very little markup or possibly even at a loss.

 

DG

Okay, I got that one on sale. But the cover price of many these days seem like bargains as well. The Dark Horse Library Editions, the IDW TMNT oversized hardcovers, the Image Compendiums, cover price on these is great, and they can all be preordered at a discount. Just because a comic isn't sold for cover doesn't mean someone's taking a loss. What Amazon pays and what they presell for probably allows for a decent turnover.

 

The markup above the wholesale price must cover overhead (rent/labor/utilities/website maintenance/theft/damage/shipping charges etc.). If a store is selling a TPB with a $15.99 cover price, it's probably costing them about $8.80. At least that's what the discount used to be. If they sell it for $9.00, they've put time and money into acquiring the product and took a loss on it. Some retailers try to work on volume to make up the difference, but the biggest problem publishers and comic shops are facing is that order volume is already too low.

 

DG

What does that have to do with Amazon presales?

 

I can't answer that. I don't buy from Amazon. Is Amazon selling this directly? or is it a retailer selling through Amazon? I will say that some deep discounts online exist because retailers take presale order to get maximum discounts. They collect enough orders that they either achieve a good enough volume to make a profit or they make their profit elsewhere by selling the balance of their order at a higher price point somewhere else.

 

The price of the raw product and the distribution costs are pretty much set. If you are getting a product at close to wholesale prices, someone is investing time an labor into selling a product and making little or no money off of it. That's not a smart way to run a business.

 

DG

[dgarthwaite-migration]

Actually, I could see a publisher offering at deep discounts through Amazon on trades that are going to have very low orders. It would be a way to bump orders up and get things printed that might be too expensive otherwise. The second tier publishers have to be struggling. Many of their print runs are very low. That would be a nice thing to track and compare to actual Diamond orders. IDW has had to go the kickstarter route to get things published.

 

DG

[dupont2005]

Amazon offers preorders directly. I have the Fear Agent Library Edition volume two preordered at about 25% off

[dupont2005]

Don't let Marvel fool you into thinking they have to charge $4.99 for 22 pages of content and 11 pages of ads. You can subscribe to Heavy Metal and get 200 pages of content with about the same ratio of ads at about $2.50 per issue.

[dgarthwaite-migration]

Don't let Marvel fool you into thinking they have to charge $4.99 for 22 pages of content and 11 pages of ads. You can subscribe to Heavy Metal and get 200 pages of content with about the same ratio of ads at about $2.50 per issue.

 

The size of the print run affects everything. New comics with all original content have fixed cost. The printer setup fees are pretty much fixed. The price of the final product depends entirely upon how many get ordered and sold. Bob Layton posted online that it costs about $20,000-$30000 to produce a regular color comic. If you printed one comic and just wanted to get your investment back, you'd have to charge at least $20,000. If you print 2, you'd have to charge at least $10,000. If you print 10,000, you have to charge $2. That's just enough to get the publisher's money back with no profit!. It also cost money to distribute the product and they aren't doing it for charity. The store has to make enough money to cover overhead and turn a profit. Based upon the low volumes the publishers are able to print, $3.99 - $4.99 is probably what it cost for everyone to survive.

 

By my estimation, about 25% of Marvel's titles are making a healthy profit. 50% are just selling enough to get by. Another 25% are losing money. If you take the comics with a healthy profit and use that money to compensate for the comics that lost money, you come out with a low to moderate profit overall.

 

When X-Men # 1 came out in 1991, I think I had determined that it cost Marvel less than 10 cents a copy to print. When you print 8 million copies, the production costs get spread out over 8 million units. Marvel could have reduced prices in the 90's, but opted not to do so. They were greedy and just pocketed the extra cash.

 

Some publishers are willing to break even on the costs to produce a comic because they expect to make money on the TPB. They don't have to pay an artist to draw the pages again. Nobody is rolling in profits with the $4.99 cover price. Partly because it runs off customers. If they sell 300,000 non-returnable copies of something... yeah.

 

DG

 

[dgarthwaite-migration]

Here was Bob Layton's article which I thought was interesting.

 

http://www.boblayton.com/what-is-the-future-of-comic-publishing/

 

Here is a video excerpt that one of my board members posted on my messageboard. It has Mark Waid's perspective.

 

DG

 

 

[batman_fan]

I like his prospective on the industry. If comics go digital, many aspect get simpler and cheaper. Distribution goes on line and can be done a lot cheaper. Look at the software industry. It has been a couple of years since I had a physical CD for software. Everything just gets downloaded off the net.

[ComicConnoisseur]

I grew up in the 90s, and I remember buying comics from Wal Mart as a kid. Usually they were a packaged deal. I had bought the Amazing Spider-Man Lifeline storyline in a package. I also got the best of 96 in a DC box. I believe it is still upstairs in a box of childhood stuff.

 

Why didn't this continue? They were cheap boxed up story lines. I even think they are first prints. I imagine they were overstock that Marvel and DC sold for cheap.

 

From what I understand, Walmart either bullies a company into taking almost no markup, or they require 100% returnability.. This is a huge gamble for a publisher. Walmart can order huge amounts above what they can reasonably sell, then the publisher has to eat all the cost of returns.

 

DG

Why I brought up Wal-Mart was because the other day I had to return a gift, and I went to use the gift card Wal-Mart issued for refund credit to buy some comics or trade paperbacks only to find out that they didn`t carry them!

They had .97 cent Hot Wheels, packs of Magic Cards, tons of video games and action figures, and yes even Baseball cards, but not one comic book!

How come the other collectible industries can cut a deal with Wal-Mart, but the comic book industry can`t?

[rjrjr]

I grew up in the 90s, and I remember buying comics from Wal Mart as a kid. Usually they were a packaged deal. I had bought the Amazing Spider-Man Lifeline storyline in a package. I also got the best of 96 in a DC box. I believe it is still upstairs in a box of childhood stuff.

 

Why didn't this continue? They were cheap boxed up story lines. I even think they are first prints. I imagine they were overstock that Marvel and DC sold for cheap.

 

From what I understand, Walmart either bullies a company into taking almost no markup, or they require 100% returnability.. This is a huge gamble for a publisher. Walmart can order huge amounts above what they can reasonably sell, then the publisher has to eat all the cost of returns.

 

DG

Why I brought up Wal-Mart was because the other day I had to return a gift, and I went to use the gift card Wal-Mart issued for refund credit to buy some comics or trade paperbacks only to find out that they didn`t carry them!

They had .97 cent Hot Wheels, packs of Magic Cards, tons of video games and action figures, and yes even Baseball cards, but not one comic book!

How come the other collectible industries can cut a deal with Wal-Mart, but the comic book industry can`t?

 

The comic book industry isn't even interested in book stores anymore. Why would they want to be in a general purpose store like Walmart?

 

With book stores branching into geek culture (toys and games) to stay afloat, the last thing I expected to hear was Marvel was abandoning bookstores.

 

Maybe Marvel fears they will end up being a creditor when the final bookstore chains go belly up? It just seems like such an odd move ...

[dgarthwaite-migration]

Diamond was owed a lot of money when one book store chain filed bankruptcy. Crossgen got hit hard on returns right before they filed bankruptcy. The concern of negative financial backlash is real. The product doesn't hold up well over time in a Walmart environment. Despite that, I think it would be possible to market something suitable for Walmart. In the 90's, Marvel had little boxed sets of their 4-issue Marvels series. Something like that would work. I think it would be possible to re-introduce comic book collecting kits like they carried at one point. That's not the same as carrying monthly titles, but it would still reach the general public.

 

DG