THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB 39 39

[Jordysnordy]

11 minutes ago, SC22 said:

AF15 CGC 1.5 sells for 11 255$ and AF15 CGC 0.5 sells for 6106$.

http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch.asp%3Fwhere%3Dsell%26title%3Damazing%2Bfantasy%2B15%26GO2%3DGO%26ItemType%3DCB&id=1206459

http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch.asp%3Fwhere%3Dsell%26title%3Damazing%2Bfantasy%2B15%26GO2%3DGO%26ItemType%3DCB&id=1206460

The 1.5 sale was from the October CL auction. The back cover is missing a big piece.

[VintageComics]

6 minutes ago, Sweet Lou 14 said:

I don't mean to hijack the AF 15 thread, but I did take what you said in the other thread as a bit of a criticism, i.e. "I don't care about these things and neither should you."

I went back and reread what I posted just to make sure.

I didn't write "I don't care about these things and neither should you". In fact, I thought I was pretty thoughtful about how  worded my replies, with the understanding that everyone has different interests (or tastes).

I did make a quip about comparing comics to fine cars but that was just meant to be funny and lighten the mood a bit (which most people who know me on here would realize).

Anyhow, sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

Edited November 23, 2017 by VintageComics

[SC22]

3 minutes ago, Jordysnordy said:

The 1.5 sale was from the October CL auction. The back cover is missing a big piece.

My mistake (the date) then even more shocking with piece missing.

[Gotham Kid]

37 minutes ago, SC22 said:

This AF15 CGC 4.0 restored went for 10 500$.

http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch.asp%3Fwhere%3Dsell%26title%3Damazing%2Bfantasy%2B15%26GO2%3DGO%26ItemType%3DCB&id=1226105

That is almost the same price as a Hulk 1 4.0 blue label.

Hmmm that's the asking price. No offers yet.

[SC22]

11 minutes ago, Gotham Kid said:

Hmmm that's the asking price. No offers yet.

You are right.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SC22

[Glassman10]

10 hours ago, Sweet Lou 14 said:

But my obsession with eye appeal certainly seems to have paid off with the 5.0 AF 15 I bought, which (if I ever sell it) I believe would fetch a value on the upper end of the 5.0 range based on the increasing differentiation I'm seeing among discerning collectors.

This is what I'm consistently seeing as well and I also had a 5.0 AF15. Presentation really matters and the sales prices are simply not being reflected in the grading.  Eventually with the competition, there has been a devaluation factored into the grade. I would not be surprised to see that happen over this particular book if the discrepancy keeps up where grade vs market value are really turned on their heads.

[Jordysnordy]

11 hours ago, SC22 said:

My mistake (the date) then even more shocking with piece missing.

 

[Jordysnordy]

56 minutes ago, Glassman10 said:

This is what I'm consistently seeing as well and I also had a 5.0 AF15. Presentation really matters and the sales prices are simply not being reflected in the grading.  Eventually with the competition, there has been a devaluation factored into the grade. I would not be surprised to see that happen over this particular book if the discrepancy keeps up where grade vs market value are really turned on their heads.

@Glassman10 I'm not sure if you are not listening to @VintageComics or not understanding what he is saying. As Roy has pointed out, not everyone cares about MC and there are many collectors would love to own an AF15 in any condition, and even better if they can get a 5.0 with MC for 20-30% below going rate due to the MC. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Just because you think a book with MC has a less eye appeal and should command a lower price, that doesn't mean that everyone will view it the same way. Personally I would prefer a copy with no MC but I have owned a few copies with MC and there has been zero difficulty in moving those books. As has been said a 1000 times in this thread, for now anyways, demand outpaces supply and as long as that continues to happen, people will buy AFs with and without MC. There are many collectors who do not follow our daily posts and are not aware that books with MC are frowned upon by many in this little community. To each his own. Buy the book and not grade as is often preached around here. There is no right or wrong choice when it comes to buying comics.

[Glassman10]

my point is simple. MC chipped books do sell for less than non chipped in the same grade. It's my belief that grading should reflect this difference. Currently it does not. Grading seems to me to establish a level playing field to help people who buy comics to establish market value. I understand what I'm being told. I'm not trying to be a snot about it. Sales achieved using the different grading companies achieve different sales plateaus.  That's all. Over the years, grading companies change their criteria and that's worth noting as well.  I continue to believe that the recent fluctuations in price have more to do with supply and demand than anything else. Squeeze supply, it should go up on price. 

Regarding chipping, when I still had my AF15 unslabbed, about 10 years ago, it had a corner folded that caused a color break. The book had no chipping at all and the accident was caused by me. It was not a big fold , perhaps a triangle about 3/32nds at the hypotenuse. Years later, we had the book out and that corner suddenly popped off of the book to my horror. It was the only chip on it but it clearly came away from the backing paper as if the ink had attached itself poorly to the page.  I had been told that it would not be considered a restoration in reattaching the chip and when the book went to CGC, the chip was included with the submission. The book came back, slabbed as a 5.0 but the chip was nowhere to be found. I never asked for the graders notes. My point is not to complain about that process, it's to note that the chip came off in a way not consistent with the usual observations about MC.  It was like the ink had no tooth to the page and the color break cut it away almost like an iceberg dropping a section.  Is it a general experience that MC is an ongoing event?

I imagine that chip cost me at least a .5 in the grade.  Still terrible artwork though. Can't fix that. 

[ickwinzs]

I had posted earlier that I had sent my AF 15 To CCs and then had it resubmitted to CGC and My new scanner will not focus when scanning a slab for some reason so I ended up taking a picture of it. Here are the before and after pics. 

 

[SC22]

1 hour ago, Jordysnordy said:

 

Pretty intense back on that one!!

[Jordysnordy]

54 minutes ago, ickwinzs said:

I had posted earlier that I had sent my AF 15 To CCs and then had it resubmitted to CGC and My new scanner will not focus when scanning a slab for some reason so I ended up taking a picture of it. Here are the before and after pics. 

 

That's great - congratulations

[gadzukes]

33 minutes ago, Jordysnordy said:

That's great - congratulations

That's a good looking 3.5

[VintageComics]

2 hours ago, Glassman10 said:

my point is simple. MC chipped books do sell for less than non chipped in the same grade. It's my belief that grading should reflect this difference.

I still don't think you understand.

You are asking grading companies to change their criteria based on fluctuating market values.

I am telling you that it's not the job of the grading company to follow market values to adjust their grading guidelines because markets fluctuate all the time.

Let's put Marvel Chipping aside completely.

Centering plays a large factor in price when it comes to Bronze Age keys. As does page quality. A CGC 9.8 with a perfectly centered cover and white pages will command a MUCH stronger price than a CGC 9.8 with a mis-wrapped cover and cream pages.

Using your logic, the grading standards should also change for CGC 9.8 Bronze keys because the values vary drastically?

And they should change for any other fluctuations based on defects for all books, by extension.

That's illogical because now you are not only changing what a CGC 9.8 or any other specific grade is, you will have to change ALL surrounding grades to accommodate for the changes being made to CGC 9.8

The grading scaled has been evolving and thought about for decades . IT went through a lot of discussion and interaction when CGC consulted dealers before it opened it's doors to get their thoughts.

Personally I don't think the current grading standard is all that bad. It is meant to appeal to both collector and dealer, buyer and seller and it has found a reasonable medium. It's now up to the market to decide how they want to value those grade increments.

And while CGC have changed in the past, they have generally changed things that were damaging to books to increase their lifespans. Two most prominent things being how they view tape (which is not as accepted now as it was a few years ago) and how they view restoration vs. conservation (because eventually ALL books will need some form of conservation to preserve them).

 

[Glassman10]

2 hours ago, VintageComics said:

It's now up to the market to decide how they want to value those grade increments.

I really do understand what you're saying. I have a lot of faith in markets as I recall 2007-8 as the CDO's were sorted out and the market completely lost faith in Bear Stearns and Lehman Bros as well ultimately with AIG. You could throw a lot of others into that heap. 

What I see here is that the market is not using the grading criteria as it applies to market value on this particular issue. AF15 is under the microscope more due to perceived value than any other factor. The Grader charges more to grade the high end for a reason.  The market senses softness in some graders and responds appropriately. All graders do not grade equally nor do all graders charge the same fees but it is reasonable to assume that the grade given puts the comic  ( or coin) in a monetary ballpark. If all things were equal, I would expect to see  a typical grade run a gamut of sales price.  My only point is that I don't see that and am simply making that observation. I'm really not trying to fight at all.  When you have a book where a single point can mean 10K or more , it becomes more scrutinized. Currently no other book is doing that. I continue to think the aberrance is simply supply and demand at work. We just saw a lot of books brought to market in what I view as a risky way to go. If I read it right, there are some folks who really miscalculated when and how to come to market and suffered for it. In some ways, I got Lucky but in some ways, I had a very good guide.

But I'm really not trying to fight. I just think there are a lot of ways to look at a camel. 

 

[VintageComics]

2 minutes ago, Glassman10 said:

Currently no other book is doing that.

OK, this explains your position. You think that it only applies to AF #15 and I would disagree. All the things discussed here apply to all books in my experience (and have for the entire 15 years that I've been back into comics after leaving for a decade).

3 minutes ago, Glassman10 said:

But I'm really not trying to fight. I just think there are a lot of ways to look at a camel. 

I'm not trying to fight either. 

Just trying to make sure that people clearly understand my position.

[Glassman10]

47 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

OK, this explains your position. You think that it only applies to AF #15 and I would disagree

well, help me out here. What other book(s) are having the kind of volatility that the AF15 has had for quite some time in the price range it's occurring in that have a variance market reaction due to a specific flaw, or don't you see it that way? I just sold a mess of books and the reasons some had value and some had far less are really curious to me. 

What I see is a grading inconsistency that the market resists when monetizing from the grade.

[VintageComics]

1 minute ago, Glassman10 said:

well, help me out here. What other book(s) are having the kind of volatility that the AF15 has had for quite some time in the price range it's occurring in that have a variance market reaction due to a specific flaw, or don't you see it that way? I just sold a mess of books and the reasons some had value and some had far less are really curious to me. 

All expensive books. The greater the price the greater the possibility of volatility due to personal preference on what people like and don't like on their comics.

1 minute ago, Glassman10 said:

What I see is a grading inconsistency that the market resists when monetizing from the grade.

What you're seeing is personal preference and how people value certain qualities within each grade.

A grade is not a price point, per se. A grade is simply an opinion on what shape the book is in.

The market decides price points based on how they perceive the book. Prices have always varied on books in a given grade for various reasons.

[Glassman10]

well, lets let it go there. 

[Spiderturtle]

All the major auctions mention copies that don’t have mc.  And to look at how clean that right edge is.  Pretty hot topic awhile and that’s outside of these boards