Best of 2013 - Results

[Meeley Man]

I entered 4 pieces, and while I tied for 5th in one category, one of my pieces received 0 votes and another received 1. SO?

 

So, then you have no reason to complain or feel snubbed. It makes a difference, when you do.

 

I've never been able to run with the big boys. But someone recently compared collecting OA to playing golf - you go out there and try to shoot a good game, even if you're not Tiger Woods.

 

Yeah, some tried that with a football analogy, too. I'll tell you the same thing I said to them: And if you went the course, brought your clubs and balls, but only ended up sitting off to the side and not getting to play, while OTHERS played the game, how long before you said "screw it" and stopped going to the golf course? That's what it's like when you are consistently snubbed. It's not that you don't place 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in the race with the big boys, but that you are made to feel that you aren't even worthy of consideration to be IN the race. And that your attempt to be included is just so much wasted effort.

 

Don called it perfectly. It's not about "pats on the back," it's about feeling a sense of inclusion. Snubbing someone year after year does the exact opposite. And the fact that few, in any of you, seem to care about that, says more about just how much a sense of "community" is actually to be found here. Like so much else, a good game is talked about that around here, but the results seem bear things out a lot differently. That's why I say if the Lowry is just going to be a circle jerk for the Heavy Hitter, then just say so and be done with it. Don't play up like "lesser folks" have a place at the table and are wanted. Actions speak louder than words. Don't pee on my head and tell me it's raining. That's an insult to my intelligence.

 

 

[theflashunc]

I'm confused.

 

How are you not participating? You're uploading art and folks are presumably looking at it even at just the thumbnail level.

 

I'd presume you're also voting for stuff too. If they don't vote for your stuff, well, not much you can do about that. If other people voting for your stuff is what counts as participation, well, then there's not much that can be done to change that.

 

 

 

 

[Meeley Man]

I'm confused.

 

How are you not participating? You're uploading art and folks are presumably looking at it even at just the thumbnail level.

 

I'd presume you're also voting for stuff too. If they don't vote for your stuff, well, not much you can do about that. If other people voting for your stuff is what counts as participation, well, then there's not much that can be done to change that.

 

Think of it like showing up at a party, but then none of the girls want to dance with you and none of the guys want to talk with you. Sure, you "participated" in the dance, but you were exclude by "the cool kids" and left to feel you had no business even showing up. Consistent (and that's the important word here) snubbing in the Lowry, is pretty much the same thing.

 

As I said, if this is just to be a circle jerk for Heavy Hitters, that's fine. Just be honest about it and say it is. Don't have non-Heavy Hitters thinking they have a place at the table, when you know they really don't. Doing otherwise is simply cruel. It's like that old frat boy game, where you find the ugliest date you can find to take to the party, not because you want them to feel included, but as a joke so you and the in-crowd can laugh at them for thinking they could ever be seriously included.

[mister_not_so_nice]

I'm confused.

 

How are you not participating? You're uploading art and folks are presumably looking at it even at just the thumbnail level.

 

I'd presume you're also voting for stuff too. If they don't vote for your stuff, well, not much you can do about that. If other people voting for your stuff is what counts as participation, well, then there's not much that can be done to change that.

 

Think of it like showing up at a party, but then none of the girls want to dance with you and none of the guys want to talk with you. Sure, you "participated" in the dance, but you were exclude by "the cool kids" and left to feel you had no business even showing up. Consistent (and that's the important word here) snubbing in the Lowry, is pretty much the same thing.

 

As I said, if this is just to be a circle jerk for Heavy Hitters, that's fine. Just be honest about it and say it is. Don't have non-Heavy Hitters thinking they have a place at the table, when you know they really don't. Doing otherwise is simply cruel. It's like that old frat boy game, where you find the ugliest date you can find to take to the party, not because you want them to feel included, but as a joke so you and the in-crowd can laugh at them for thinking they could ever be seriously included.

 

But if you got zero votes, doesn't that mean EVERYONE snubbed you? The heavy hitters, the non-heavy hitters, the low-ballers, the crummy gallery owners, the jocks, the geeks, the nerds, the greasers, the social, the anti-socials, dweebs, punks, goths, cool kids, jerks, loners and everyone in between.

 

This whole "snubbing" thing is ridiculous. Buy some art I like, I'll vote for it. Until then, apparently, you're the one that covets the art the most. Revel in this. Have you checked my CAF? Probably not. It sucks. I get that. Someone on CAF posts a PREACHER page it gets on the most commented list. I post an entire SOK issue, 7 views (and I have 33 people following my CAF). I guess i could have started a thread complaining my art choices didn't get the respect they deserve, but I didn't.

 

"I don't care about parties or a good time.

I want a mission."

Armageddon Man - BLACK FLAG

[gambron]

The point that Meeley Man is missing is that SELECTING, POSTING, and having one's pieces VIEWED side by side by potential voters EQUALLY with everyone else's in the Lowry Gallery is absolutely being included in the only parts of the process that truly mean anything to me and most people. Clearly votes are going to be skewed in the direction of the most popular runs and artists, which of course tend to be the most expensive pieces, and sometimes of course by who's friends with whom, etc. At the end of the day (and i'm sure i'm not alone here) I enjoy browsing through the ENTIRE gallery and taking in everyone's posts before casting votes. In many cases i've sometimes discovered nice pieces by less popular, more obscure artists and titles that I didn't know about or never paid much attention to. And perhaps those pieces don't get my "votes" because they may not "excite" me due to my lack of connection and or familiarity with the source material, I am still grateful that those individuals participated and took part in the process.

 

Expressing sour grapes about votes or lack thereof is downright juvenile and shows a complete lack of understanding of the big picture. To be honest, the close-minded rigidity with which that argument is being made in this thread leads me to believe that there's far more going on here than a mere lack of votes in the "Best of 2013" contest.

 

Sorry, someone had to say it...

 

Ken

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=19201

 

 

[Lago32]

I'm confused.

 

How are you not participating? You're uploading art and folks are presumably looking at it even at just the thumbnail level.

 

I'd presume you're also voting for stuff too. If they don't vote for your stuff, well, not much you can do about that. If other people voting for your stuff is what counts as participation, well, then there's not much that can be done to change that.

 

Think of it like showing up at a party, but then none of the girls want to dance with you and none of the guys want to talk with you. Sure, you "participated" in the dance, but you were exclude by "the cool kids" and left to feel you had no business even showing up. Consistent (and that's the important word here) snubbing in the Lowry, is pretty much the same thing.

 

As I said, if this is just to be a circle jerk for Heavy Hitters, that's fine. Just be honest about it and say it is. Don't have non-Heavy Hitters thinking they have a place at the table, when you know they really don't. Doing otherwise is simply cruel. It's like that old frat boy game, where you find the ugliest date you can find to take to the party, not because you want them to feel included, but as a joke so you and the in-crowd can laugh at them for thinking they could ever be seriously included.

 

There are more than a few elements of your argument that I am having a tough time swallowing but one of the biggest is your constant mentioning of being "snubbed" or "not included". I am pretty sure that snubbing implies purposeful disdain...so I have to therefore conclude that you are saying that voters are PURPOSELY NOT voting for your pieces versus PURPOSELY voting for others pieces. This is simply ridiculous. To echo Mike Not-so-nice's comments from a couple of posts ago, if the situation bothers you that much, either don't participate and know that you yourself enjoy your art purchases, OR, if it is so important to you to solicit votes, buy art that is more appealing to the masses.

 

Mike D

[Meeley Man]

The point that Meeley Man is missing is that SELECTING, POSTING, and having one's pieces VIEWED side by side by potential voters EQUALLY with everyone else's in the Lowry Gallery is absolutely being included in the only parts of the process that truly mean anything to me and most people. Clearly votes are going to be skewed in the direction of the most popular runs and artists, which of course tend to be the most expensive pieces, and sometimes of course by who's friends with whom, etc. At the end of the day (and i'm sure i'm not alone here) I enjoy browsing through the ENTIRE gallery and taking in everyone's posts before casting votes. In many cases i've sometimes discovered nice pieces by less popular, more obscure artists and titles that I didn't know about or never paid much attention to.

 

If that's true, then the answer to all of this is simple: Do away completely with the voting aspect. Just make it an annual retrospective of what people think was their best acquisitions of the year and let people enjoy looking through it, as you stated. That would put everyone on equal footing and give the feeling of inclusiveness. And it would do so in a real and meaningful way, not just simply with empty words. It's the very suggestion I gave on the suggestion thread about this, too. So, there's the answer. Anyone else backing that suggestion?

 

Nope. I see calls for move votes and more categories, though. More chances for Heavy Hitters to get more votes and for the "lesser folks" to get snubbed. It just further proves what I said, in that the Lowry is little more than a circle jerk for Heavy Hitters. If it wasn't, then the voting aspect would be removed. If it was about "SELECTING, POSTING, and having one's pieces VIEWED side by side by other collectors EQUALLY with everyone else's in the Lowry Gallery being included is the only parts of the process that truly means anything to most people," I fully expect everyone to call for a removal of the voting from the process. Is that going to happen? Call me skeptical, but I highly doubt it. As I said, this "community" talks a good game, but when it comes to the actions the outcome is usually far different from the words. And it makes the reality a lot more telling.

[delekkerste]

Anyway, I suggested last year with doing away with the vote and just making this an event where everyone can show off their top five. Which is what it's supposed to be about, right? It appears that won't be happening, so I have another suggestion: Let those who wish to participate in the Lowry, but don't want to be included in the vote, be given the choice to opt out of the vote.

 

Let's try it and see if it results in more participation. As it is, some collectors sit out "Best of" because they won't get enough votes, while others sit it out because they'll get too many. There are plenty of mega-collectors who don't want to deal with the potential anger and animosity that can come with the vote. This way, those who hope for pats on the back have a better chance of getting them while those who don't care as much can still display their top five picks. Hopefully, a win-win.

 

Don't like this suggestion at all. If we're going to do a vote, I want to vote for the pieces I like the most out of those displayed in the Lowry, and not some subset of those "entered". I can see the voting being hugely devalued by high-end guys opting their pieces out (and I don't think that fear of dominating the competition would necessarily be the primary reason for such). I can also easily imagine all the "Well, my votes are for these 5 pieces, but, if they had been entered into the voting, I really would have voted for these pieces instead" posts here and on Comicart-L, which, again, would totally undermine and devalue the voting process. Bad idea.

 

As for those concerned about not getting any votes, just up the # of votes per category to 5 and you'll get 67% more total votes cast, and I'm sure a good number of them will make their way to pieces that aren't the usual suspects once people have those extra votes to acknowledge some of the less obvious entries (there are a number I would have liked to acknowledge this year had I had a couple more votes per category).

[gambron]

For what it's worth Felix and I had that same conversation a year or two ago, and Mike D and I had it last night. Needless to say, i'm all for it and it's why for the past 2 years I haven't participated. And that's not because I ever felt snubbed as I do collect very obvious, popular stuff, and have gotten MANY votes in the past. My reasoning is simply that I don't feel voting and or competition should have a place in art appreciation.

 

Ken

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=19201

[delekkerste]

For what it's worth Felix and I had that same conversation a year or two ago, and Mike D and I had it last night. Needless to say, i'm all for it and it's why for the past 2 years I haven't participated. And that's not because I ever felt snubbed as I do collect very obvious, popular stuff, and have gotten MANY votes in the past. My reasoning is simply that I don't feel voting and or competition should have a place in art appreciation.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with a non-voting retrospective, but, on the other hand, I don't see what is so threatening and wrong about acknowledging some of our favorites from the past year, and the voting format is an easy way to do that, especially as not everyone posts their picks here or on the L (nor are the posts read by everyone anyway).

[Nexus]

The point that Meeley Man is missing is that SELECTING, POSTING, and having one's pieces VIEWED side by side by potential voters EQUALLY with everyone else's in the Lowry Gallery is absolutely being included in the only parts of the process that truly mean anything to me and most people. Clearly votes are going to be skewed in the direction of the most popular runs and artists, which of course tend to be the most expensive pieces, and sometimes of course by who's friends with whom, etc. At the end of the day (and i'm sure i'm not alone here) I enjoy browsing through the ENTIRE gallery and taking in everyone's posts before casting votes. In many cases i've sometimes discovered nice pieces by less popular, more obscure artists and titles that I didn't know about or never paid much attention to.

 

If that's true, then the answer to all of this is simple: Do away completely with the voting aspect. Just make it an annual retrospective of what people think was their best acquisitions of the year and let people enjoy looking through it, as you stated. That would put everyone on equal footing and give the feeling of inclusiveness. And it would do so in a real and meaningful way, not just simply with empty words. It's the very suggestion I gave on the suggestion thread about this, too. So, there's the answer. Anyone else backing that suggestion?

 

Nope. I see calls for move votes and more categories, though. More chances for Heavy Hitters to get more votes and for the "lesser folks" to get snubbed. It just further proves what I said, in that the Lowry is little more than a circle jerk for Heavy Hitters. If it wasn't, then the voting aspect would be removed. If it was about "SELECTING, POSTING, and having one's pieces VIEWED side by side by other collectors EQUALLY with everyone else's in the Lowry Gallery being included is the only parts of the process that truly means anything to most people," I fully expect everyone to call for a removal of the voting from the process. Is that going to happen? Call me skeptical, but I highly doubt it. As I said, this "community" talks a good game, but when it comes to the actions the outcome is usually far different from the words. And it makes the reality a lot more telling.

 

You're just seeing what you want to see. I suggested last year to remove the vote. It's been brought up again by others this year. You're not the first, second, or even third guy to suggest this. Let alone the only person to think of it.

 

As it stands, everyone has a different standard for voting. In the end, though, people vote for what they like. I fail to see where that's a "snub".

 

 

[Bird]

For what it's worth Felix and I had that same conversation a year or two ago, and Mike D and I had it last night. Needless to say, i'm all for it and it's why for the past 2 years I haven't participated. And that's not because I ever felt snubbed as I do collect very obvious, popular stuff, and have gotten MANY votes in the past. My reasoning is simply that I don't feel voting and or competition should have a place in art appreciation.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with a non-voting retrospective, but, on the other hand, I don't see what is so threatening and wrong about acknowledging some of our favorites from the past year, and the voting format is an easy way to do that, especially as not everyone posts their picks here or on the L (nor are the posts read by everyone anyway).

 

I agree. The voting adds a layer, but not a required layer. The collected "best of" exists for viewing whether or not you acknowledge the voting results. I respect people for not participating out of principle but would hope people would consider and weigh the collective aspect of showing the art. just as we have many collectors who don't show their art online at all, I wish they would be more participatory in the online hobby as well.

 

 

[Nexus]

Anyway, I suggested last year with doing away with the vote and just making this an event where everyone can show off their top five. Which is what it's supposed to be about, right? It appears that won't be happening, so I have another suggestion: Let those who wish to participate in the Lowry, but don't want to be included in the vote, be given the choice to opt out of the vote.

 

Let's try it and see if it results in more participation. As it is, some collectors sit out "Best of" because they won't get enough votes, while others sit it out because they'll get too many. There are plenty of mega-collectors who don't want to deal with the potential anger and animosity that can come with the vote. This way, those who hope for pats on the back have a better chance of getting them while those who don't care as much can still display their top five picks. Hopefully, a win-win.

 

Don't like this suggestion at all. If we're going to do a vote, I want to vote for the pieces I like the most out of those displayed in the Lowry, and not some subset of those "entered". I can see the voting being hugely devalued by high-end guys opting their pieces out (and I don't think that fear of dominating the competition would necessarily be the primary reason for such). I can also easily imagine all the "Well, my votes are for these 5 pieces, but, if they had been entered into the voting, I really would have voted for these pieces instead" posts here and on Comicart-L, which, again, would totally undermine and devalue the voting process. Bad idea.

 

As for those concerned about not getting any votes, just up the # of votes per category to 5 and you'll get 67% more total votes cast, and I'm sure a good number of them will make their way to pieces that aren't the usual suspects once people have those extra votes to acknowledge some of the less obvious entries (there are a number I would have liked to acknowledge this year had I had a couple more votes per category).

 

Well, I admit it's not perfect. But there are clearly hurt feelings here. Either we ignore that, or we try something different. You're never going to make everyone happy, but I can't recall a previous "Best of" where there was this much angst over the vote.

 

I'm also fine if the vote was increased to five. But then the gap between the usual suspects and the less obvious choices would widen, even if the latter got more overall votes. And people might still be upset over that.

 

Like I said, some collectors choose not to enter either because they think they'll have a poor showing or because they'll have too good of one. Yeah, the former probably outweighs the latter. We all know collectors who only enter when they think they have a shot at "winning". If we get rid of the vote, or just have it as an option, maybe more people would participate. I enjoy the vote, but I enjoy checking out everyone's top five more.

[Nexus]

I look at some of the pieces that got single digit votes and I would DEARLY love to add them to my collection, if the opportunity arose. For the most part, my tastes diverge a little bit from the norm - my favorite cover was Greg Kessler's Y #57. And I like Massimo better than most of the artists in the top 10! No offense to anyone, but this stuff is subjective. I don't care if something is old, only if it's treasured by me and makes me feel nostalgic. On top of that, if Greg were willing to sell (dibs - pretty please?) I'm sure the purchase price would be a pro rata bargain versus what it would take to obtain some of the stuff that garnered a lot a lot of votes.

 

Anyhow my .02.

 

 

Thanks for the kind words, Jon! This was definitely the piece I was most disappointed about the results on. I really believed it might be one of the top choices for covers, but I guess maybe the scan doesn't do it justice. I will keep you in mind if I ever decide to sell, but now that I've read this that "pro rata bargain" might be out the window! Congrats on your own results with the Fables 100 cover! It truly is a beautiful piece!

 

Congrats on the votes you got for your YTLM cover-- I don't think you should be disappointed at all! In fact, I'm pretty sure your #57 cover got more votes than my #1 cover when I entered it way back when. The covers category is generally dominated by Big Two superheroes, and that a non-superhero cover got a good number of votes is a victory, in my book.

 

It also underscores the fact that every year is different. The votes don't represent anything absolutely. Let's keep it all in perspective. There are plenty of A/A+ pieces that didn't get entered. If they did, the lists would look quite different. My SANDMAN piece got the most votes in the panel category, but I know that was because two great Byrne X-MEN pages killed each other and split the vote. Either one would have done better by themselves. As well, the KILLING JOKE page probably would have beaten everything (KJ usually does), except that the owner had multiple usual suspects in other categories (and ultimately winning for splash/pinup). Voters like to spread the votes around.

 

And if we really want to keep things in perspective...none of us drew this art! Nothing to take away personally, good or bad, from the vote. All credit/blame goes to the artists!

[mister_not_so_nice]

I vote for keeping the voting.

 

I like to cast my votes for my favorite piece posted to CAF the previous year. Are they the "Best pieces"? In my eyes they are.

 

And who are these collecting heavy-hitter illuminatee? Do they get more votes than everyone else? Are their more "heavy hitters" collecting OA than us lowly "light hitters"?

Want more votes on your art? Get more like minded collectors to participate (just don't invite any of those heavy-hitter snobs)

 

I really can't believe grown men are mad that other grown men don't like their funny book art

 

I'm going to look over the thread where everyone posted what they voted for. If my name isn't on your list than your name is going on mine

 

 

 

If people don't quit snubbing my posts I'm going to report all of you to the mods. Quit "post-shaming" me.

 

[gambron]

I wouldn't have a problem with a non-voting retrospective, but, on the other hand, I don't see what is so threatening and wrong about acknowledging some of our favorites from the past year, and the voting format is an easy way to do that, especially as not everyone posts their picks here or on the L (nor are the posts read by everyone anyway).

 

Gene, I too don't see any danger in "acknowledging" some of our favorites from the previous year with a vote. However, that would require an elevated, mature, selfless perspective of all of those participating to avoid hurt feelings and pettiness. I mean correct me if i'm wrong, but I think some guys have actually voted for their own pieces in the past, ! I just think the above is simply too much to expect of a "large community" of people collectively, no?

 

And I say the above regretfully in many ways

 

Ken

[Meeley Man]

The voting adds a layer, but not a required layer. The collected "best of" exists for viewing whether or not you acknowledge the voting results.

 

Then, why not just do away with the vote? If it is that inconsequential to the existence of the Lowry "Best Of," then not much is lost from getting rid of it. And on the plus side, you'd likely see more people participate, which is something you claim to want, right? So, it'd be a win-win.

 

I respect people for not participating out of principle but would hope people would consider and weigh the collective aspect of showing the art. just as we have many collectors who don't show their art online at all, I wish they would be more participatory in the online hobby as well.

 

Then take the actions that would make them feel more like wanting to participate. Doing away with the voting aspect of the Lowry would probably be a good first step to do that.

[Meeley Man]

I wouldn't have a problem with a non-voting retrospective, but, on the other hand, I don't see what is so threatening and wrong about acknowledging some of our favorites from the past year, and the voting format is an easy way to do that, especially as not everyone posts their picks here or on the L (nor are the posts read by everyone anyway).

 

Gene, I too don't see any danger in "acknowledging" some of our favorites from the previous year with a vote. However, that would require an elevated, mature, selfless perspective of all of those participating to avoid hurt feelings and pettiness.

 

That's funny, because I see the voting aspect as the most base, immature, and selfish perspective one could have.

 

And if you want to "acknowledge" your faves in the Lowry, who's stopping you, if there's no vote? Write a thread here (or at any other OA forum) and talk about what ones you saw that stuck out to you. Talk about what made them get your attention and why you have such appreciation for it. That, it would seem, would go a longer way to generate conversation, insights, understanding, and INCLUSIVNESS than (what many of you have yourselves inferred is) "a meaningless vote." That sounds a lot more like an "elevated, mature, selfless perspective," from where I stand.

 

But I suspect that's just too much work for folks. Just like doing descriptions on the pieces they post at CAF. After all, why give any thoughts to why you are obtaining and sharing that artwork. Who cares, right? Hell, you probably don't even know why you want it yourself, do you? So much for "elevated, mature, and selfless perspective," huh? :shrug:

[lb jefferies]

Please. Just stop the whining.

[Bird]

Meeley Man, I don't know how to respond to your opinion because you don't have a Lowry. At least not when I looked this morning. I wanted to see these pieces that weren't worth a vote but could not find them, so I don't know where to go from there. into conjecture, which doesn't interest me honestly.