CGC Issue Resolved

[SquareChaos]

 

Update - I just talked to CGC, and they told me they would be glad to look them over again, but I would have to pay another submission fee

 

 

Looking at them again seems to be the right thing to do. If the proof of restoration is even somewhat in question the labels should be blue - I know it is difficult to deal with certainty, but they are supposed to be the authority.

 

I am intellectual interested in seeing how this turns out, and I'm also interested in how the community will react. If the labels go Blue again is there a bigger uproar? If they stay Purple should we as a community feel better or worse? I know how you'd feel Dan, I don't mean this question to be antagonizing, I'm simply looking at the bigger picture - I hope they come back Blue for your sake.

 

 

[namisgr]

The posts here expressing their expectation that CGC be 100% perfect with their restoration and trimming detection miss the point that CGC is not now, has never been, and has never claimed to be perfect in these regards.. They have stated clearly that while they believe they do an outstanding job with detecting restoration and trimming (and I have no reason to doubt this), they are fallible and sometimes err.

 

Once that concept is understood, it is also easy to understand that every resubmission comes with the small risk that not only the grade but also the label color may change upon re-grading.

[joeypost]

The posts here that express their expectation CGC be 100% perfect with their restoration and trimming detection are missing the point that CGC is not now, has never been, and has never claimed to be perfect in these regards.. They have stated clearly that while they believe they do an outstanding job with detecting restoration and trimming (and I have no reason to doubt this), they are fallible and sometimes err.

 

Once that concept is understood, it is also easy to understand that every resubmission comes with the small risk that not only the grade but also the label color may change upon re-grading.

 

+1. Stinks when it happens but it happens.

[Balham's Finest]

 

Update - I just talked to CGC, and they told me they would be glad to look them over again, but I would have to pay another submission fee

 

 

Good news, I guess - but I have to say I'd be VERY surprised if they came back blue.

 

That would be tantamount to CGC admitting that their restoration detection is a crapshoot, and suicidal on their part.

[USArmyParatrooper]

 

Update - I just talked to CGC, and they told me they would be glad to look them over again, but I would have to pay another submission fee

 

 

Looking at them again seems to be the right thing to do. If the proof of restoration is even somewhat in question the labels should be blue - I know it is difficult to deal with certainty, but they are supposed to be the authority.

 

I am intellectual interested in seeing how this turns out, and I'm also interested in how the community will react. If the labels go Blue again is there a bigger uproar? If they stay Purple should we as a community feel better or worse? I know how you'd feel Dan, I don't mean this question to be antagonizing, I'm simply looking at the bigger picture - I hope they come back Blue for your sake.

 

 

Yeah, having 2 previous blues come back purple is astounding. It's not like half the comics out there have restoration work done to them. For CGC to miss it on two books, and then catch them both on a single resub is a wild coincidence.

 

Maybe a new resto spotter is being overzealous and overly cautious?

[Spider-Dan]

 

Update - I just talked to CGC, and they told me they would be glad to look them over again, but I would have to pay another submission fee

 

 

Good news, I guess - but I have to say I'd be VERY surprised if they came back blue.

 

That would be tantamount to CGC admitting that their restoration detection is a crapshoot, and suicidal on their part.

 

 

I was being sarcastic

 

[USArmyParatrooper]

 

I was being sarcastic

 

I thought that was obvious. Of course they'll inspect them again for a fee. They'll inspect the same comic a thousand times if you pay for it.

[bababooey]

I was wondering if you were going to clarify that.

 

We need a sarcasm smilie

[Rip]

Everytime I see it I think the same thing... BS. Restoration may be even more subjective than grade.

 

Whether bits of this or that gets blue or purple is subjective. CGC reserves that choice.

The dividing line between additive and non-additive was a company decision. CGC declared it.

And unless trimming is horribly obvious, PGX sugar-shakes style edges, declaring a factory trimmed edge as retrimmed is going to come down to a judgement call. CGC says they got better at making those after the Ewert fiasco. No warranty, no guarantee.

 

So if restoration isn't subjective, labeling it damn sure is. Probably more legalese, word play, arbitrary choice and caveats covering it than anything.

 

 

According to CGC's policy:

 

Color touch = restoration

Trimming = restoration

 

This includes ANY amount of either. There's zero ambiguity there and no room for subjectivity. It would be different if they said something like "very minor trimming or color touch is not restoration." But they don't. Any amount of either is considered restoration.

 

that's not correct. There's many a color touched and or glued book in a blue label. Why? Arbitrary decision on their part so that the owners of mile highs wouldn't cry blue bloody murder.

 

Davenport is 100% spot on.

 

Are you talking about color touch and glue that they missed, or do they acknowledge that it's there? Did they acknowledge it and downgrade the books accordingly? Because that still wouldn't change anything. You can write on the cover and request a blue label, but it will be downgraded.

 

 

A lot of books have a very small amount of color touch or glue and they are in Blue slabs. It's not just Mile Highs. If the amount is so small that the Glue or color touch would have no effect on the grade, then the book will be noted but receive a Blue Label. Sometimes a book with restoration removal with go from Purple to blue but still get the marks on the slight amount of glue or CT left over.

 

Here is an example from a current auction of blue with notes.

http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7087&lotNo=91235#1095210952641

 

Yes there is a subjective nature to restoration. Depending on how much will determine what is noted on the label. Blue with notes is the smallest, followed by a purple label SP or SA.

 

Where the book falls is subjective on the degree on restoration. And sometimes the intent can subjective as well.

 

What so amazing is that this was two books at the same time. I would love to see large scans to see what was going on.

[SquareChaos]

 

Update - I just talked to CGC, and they told me they would be glad to look them over again, but I would have to pay another submission fee

 

 

Good news, I guess - but I have to say I'd be VERY surprised if they came back blue.

 

That would be tantamount to CGC admitting that their restoration detection is a crapshoot, and suicidal on their part.

 

 

I was being sarcastic

 

Ah! I thought you were speaking of some smaller general fee! I guess I no longer need to be intellectually interested

[USArmyParatrooper]

A lot of books have a very small amount of color touch or glue and they are in Blue slabs. It's not just Mile Highs. If the amount is so small that the Glue or color touch would have no effect on the grade, then the book will be noted but receive a Blue Label. Sometimes a book with restoration removal with go from Purple to blue but still get the marks on the slight amount of glue or CT left over.

 

Yes there is a subjective nature to restoration. Depending on how much will determine what is noted on the label. Blue with notes is the smallest, followed by a purple label SP or SA.

 

Where the book falls is subjective on the degree on restoration. And sometimes the intent can subjective as well.

 

What so amazing is that this was two books at the same time. I would love to see large scans to see what was going on.

 

Then perhaps I was mistaken. I thought any amount of color touch is considered restoration. If that's not the case, then I agree that subjectivity can come into play.

 

It's somewhat common with black background keys like X-Men 94 and TMNT 1 to have SA Color Touch, because genius collectors think they use a black felt tip pen to color in spine ticks.

[easyt63]

The posts here that express their expectation CGC be 100% perfect with their restoration and trimming detection are missing the point that CGC is not now, has never been, and has never claimed to be perfect in these regards.. They have stated clearly that while they believe they do an outstanding job with detecting restoration and trimming (and I have no reason to doubt this), they are fallible and sometimes err.

 

Once that concept is understood, it is also easy to understand that every resubmission comes with the small risk that not only the grade but also the label color may change upon re-grading.

 

+1. Stinks when it happens but it happens.

 

Sorry guys, but in the real world (i.e. not in fanboyland), businesses are expected to make up for their errors. Make good with the customer. At least the ones who want to survive.

 

If CGC were a different type of company operating in a different market fulfilling the perceived needs of a different customer base, they would be expect to fix the situation. And making Dan pay again is not fixing the problem.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Sorry guys, but in the real world (i.e. not in fanboyland), businesses are expected to make up for their errors. Make good with the customer. At least the ones who want to survive.

 

If CGC were a different type of company operating in a different market fulfilling the perceived needs of a different customer base, they would be expect to fix the situation. And making Dan pay again is not fixing the problem.

 

I agree. I've always thought it would be interesting if PCGS (for those who don't know, considered the gold standard in coin grading) decided to delve into comics. Coins have 3 reputable graders who compete with each other.

 

Comics only have CGC and their nearest competitor is a joke.

[Rip]

Maybe the submitter can show CGC pics of both books in blue labels. That might go a little ways in negotiating something with them.

[Darkowl]

The posts here that express their expectation CGC be 100% perfect with their restoration and trimming detection are missing the point that CGC is not now, has never been, and has never claimed to be perfect in these regards.. They have stated clearly that while they believe they do an outstanding job with detecting restoration and trimming (and I have no reason to doubt this), they are fallible and sometimes err.

 

Once that concept is understood, it is also easy to understand that every resubmission comes with the small risk that not only the grade but also the label color may change upon re-grading.

 

+1. Stinks when it happens but it happens.

 

Sorry guys, but in the real world (i.e. not in fanboyland), businesses are expected to make up for their errors. Make good with the customer. At least the ones who want to survive.

 

If CGC were a different type of company operating in a different market fulfilling the perceived needs of a different customer base, they would be expect to fix the situation. And making Dan pay again is not fixing the problem.

 

[namisgr]

Sorry guys, but in the real world (i.e. not in fanboyland), businesses are expected to make up for their errors. Make good with the customer. At least the ones who want to survive.

 

If CGC were a different type of company operating in a different market fulfilling the perceived needs of a different customer base, they would be expected to fix the situation. And making Dan pay again is not fixing the problem.

 

Sorry, but in the real world nobody in the hobby can detect restoration or trimming with 100% fidelity, which means that any and every third party grading service has gotten, gets now, and will get in the future some wrong. As for whether CGC can survive without 100% consistency on their grading, that's been answered already in the marketplace with a resounding yes.

 

Finally, why focus soley on 'their errors' with restoration and trimming detection, when there are orders of magnitude more instances of numerical grades changing with multiple rounds of grading. After all, those are 'errors' as well if the expectation is 100% fidelity in grading.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Also , you guys taking cgc's policies on what is and isn't resto as apparent gospel makes me question if you collected pre-cgc? It's not a good or bad thing to have collected a long or short time, but it does make for different PoVs.

 

Boy, does it.

[Davenport]

Everytime I see it I think the same thing... BS. Restoration may be even more subjective than grade.

 

Whether bits of this or that gets blue or purple is subjective. CGC reserves that choice.

The dividing line between additive and non-additive was a company decision. CGC declared it.

And unless trimming is horribly obvious, PGX sugar-shakes style edges, declaring a factory trimmed edge as retrimmed is going to come down to a judgement call. CGC says they got better at making those after the Ewert fiasco. No warranty, no guarantee.

 

So if restoration isn't subjective, labeling it damn sure is. Probably more legalese, word play, arbitrary choice and caveats covering it than anything.

 

 

According to CGC's policy:

 

Color touch = restoration

Trimming = restoration

 

This includes ANY amount of either. There's zero ambiguity there and no room for subjectivity. It would be different if they said something like "very minor trimming or color touch is not restoration." But they don't. Any amount of either is considered restoration.

 

that's not correct. There's many a color touched and or glued book in a blue label. Why? Arbitrary decision on their part so that the owners of mile highs wouldn't cry blue bloody murder.

 

Davenport is 100% spot on.

For reference, the details and caveats can be read here: An Overview of Comic Book Restoration

 

Another way to know its subjective is it's been fluid over time. The policy toward Tape changed. The policy toward reproduction covers changed. Not sure if the policy toward vintage staple swaps changed or not.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Sorry guys, but in the real world (i.e. not in fanboyland), businesses are expected to make up for their errors. Make good with the customer. At least the ones who want to survive.

 

If CGC were a different type of company operating in a different market fulfilling the perceived needs of a different customer base, they would be expected to fix the situation. And making Dan pay again is not fixing the problem.

 

Sorry, comic collector, but nobody in the hobby can detect restoration or trimming with 100% fidelity, which means that any and every third party grading service has gotten, gets now, and will get in the future some wrong. As for whether CGC can survive without 100% consistency on their grading, that's been answered already.

 

Finally, why focus soley on 'their errors' with restoration and trimming detection, when there are orders of magnitude more instances of numerical grades changing with multiple rounds of grading. After all, those are 'errors' as well if the expectation is 100% fidelity.

 

Again....

 

It is not about being perfect.

 

It is about fixing errors that are discovered.

 

The first is impossible. The second is standard operating practice.

 

And numeric changes in grading are not errors (which, of course, is why the very, very, very, VERY long-standing necessity of including all numbers between 9 and 10 need to be incorporated, regardless of the reasoning a decade and a half ago for their existence as they are. But I digress.)

 

It is entirely within reason to look at a book one day and assess that it grades a "9.0"...and it is also entirely within reason to look at that same book another day, and assess it as "8.5."

 

The major "innovation" that CGC brought to the entire hobby is that no longer would you get a book that someone graded 4.5 (that is, VG+), and someone else graded 9.0 (that is, VF/NM), having had nothing change to the book in the interim. As most collecting prior to CGC know, this was happening as a matter of course. Now, it is relatively rare.

 

The general condition of anything is subjective. Restoration is 99.9% not.

 

The real issue, which no one has brought up in this discussion, is why there is such a vast disparity between the value of a book with no color touch at all, and that same book in the same general condition, with a dot of color touch...

 

The treatment of restored books in this hobby has got to undergo a major reformation.

[namisgr]

So which is the error, if restoration and trimming cannot be discerned with 100% accuracy, the first grade or the second grade?

 

And that's the point, that there is no error in this case. Just a highly educated and trusted opinion that is one of the best if not the best in the hobby.

 

Only when a comic is known with certainty to be unrestored or untrimmed by its original owner and it is graded to the contrary has an error on CGCs' part been established.