CGC Issue Resolved

[NewWorldOrder]

I believe we both feel the same.

 

IMO grading is never subjective and very much cut and dry in most cases.

 

5.0 or 5.5

4.0 or 4.5

 

I will say that low-mid-grade within the same number from a 0 to .5 can be subjective to what day it is, but all other grades I feel a consistent transparent model is firmly in place now.

 

Example the difference between 9.4 and 9.6 is not subjective. At least in my eyes.

 

Of course it's subjective. You don't believe there are many comics that are somewhere between a strong 9.4 and a weak 9.6? Perhaps.. one that is a 9.5?

 

NO

 

Weak 9.6's should be in a 9.4 holder so they are strong 9.4's.

 

Not saying CGC's doesn't do what you said, but difference between 9.4 and 9.6 to me is pretty apparent.

 

 

[hizzy-migration]

Spider Dan got the books already cracked? From what i understand he did not crack them. He purchased the books cracked with the labels? How would CGC be able to stand behind books that they have no chain of contact on? How would they know if books where tampered with or swapped out. or if that PGX guy got ahold of them? It has been stated by CGC if those books where in there chain of contact they would work something out to make the buyer whole? I don't know if I have all of the facts right but if I am reading this correctly what is the correct answer? I have already stated that i feel sick for the OP.

 

Hi,

 

Just wondering, were these books bought cracked with the labels stuck in the bag/board? If the case is open and a labels is stuck in there, then I don't know what CGC can do. The labels might not even correspond with the books sold. My sympathies are with the buyer, but I don't know how CGC can compensate for a case that has been already cracked...

[Harshen]

Hi All,

 

We want to clarify our stance on this issue. When CGC graders look at a book, they grade only what is in front of them. Submitter information, any history about the book, the graders are not privy to. If a book has been removed from the CGC holder and resubmitted, even if the tag is included, CGC can’t know for certain the book was not altered or damaged in any way. However, if the book is cracked out on our premises, either through CCS or CGC, and restoration is found, we will do our best to make the submitter whole. With CCS here, we also have the ability to see if the restoration can be removed to mitigate the loss. In that event, all fees associated with removal, pressing and grading will be paid for by CGC.

We will be reaching out to Dan today. If any further issues arise and you are not satisfied with our Customer Service, please reach out to me.

hpatel@cgccomics.com

 

Thank you,

Harshen Patel

Director of Operations, CGC

 

[Spider-Dan]

Spider Dan got the books already cracked? From what i understand he did not crack them. He purchased the books cracked with the labels? How would CGC be able to stand behind books that they have no chain of contact on? How would they know if books where tampered with or swapped out. or if that PGX guy got ahold of them? It has been stated by CGC if those books where in there chain of contact they would work something out to make the buyer whole? I don't know if I have all of the facts right but if I am reading this correctly what is the correct answer? I have already stated that i feel sick for the OP.

 

Hi,

 

Just wondering, were these books bought cracked with the labels stuck in the bag/board? If the case is open and a labels is stuck in there, then I don't know what CGC can do. The labels might not even correspond with the books sold. My sympathies are with the buyer, but I don't know how CGC can compensate for a case that has been already cracked...

 

I know this thread is way long but as stated on page 1, I took the books out of the original blue slabs. Did nothing more than place them in mylar pack them up and send them in.

 

I know CGC has no way of knowing whether I tampered with the books or not. I get it. But I know I DIDN'T, and I'm sure there are a few people who believe me also. Why would I try and CT or trim a book then send it in and get upset when it gets the PLOD. Then come on here and complain about it? Cmon... does my reputation not mean anything?

 

I'm not looking for any compensation as some Boardies have suggested. I'm just furious that CGC missed 2 out of 2 books.

 

To me that is unacceptable, and I wanted to let people here be aware of what happened.

[thirdgreenham]

Just wondering how you could mark an inside page, somehow, without the owner of the book becoming furious....

 

Why would the owner be furious? This would be the policy of the grading company and would be known up front. And if it brings consistency and greater trust to the hobby, how would it hurt? We're talking something very small that would need a strong lens to be read, and in many cases might be hardly distinguishable from the normal variance in tones on a page, visible fibers, and other tiny flaws that even the highest-graded books would have.

 

Are you furious when submitting your 9.8 book to CGC that maybe half-a-dozen strangers are physically handling your book before it is finally encased? Or is it something you endure because you value the end product?

 

 

Sorry, my comment came too quickly without much thought into the whole mechanics of the process.

 

Of course the owner of the book must know its going to tagged/marked. (thumbs u if they didn't know, and found out later something like this was done without their permission, then they might get upset. Now that you made the obvious more clear to me, I see that this would be known before sending any books in.

 

Do you think there'd be a certain percentage of folks that wouldn't go for the tagging as they felt it would be intrusive?

 

---Are you furious when submitting your 9.8 book to CGC that maybe half-a-dozen strangers are physically handling your book before it is finally encased? Or is it something you endure because you value the end product?-----

 

Good point. (thumbs u there's always going to be a certain amount of handling/flipping of pages involved, and that can easily be forgotten when focusing on attaining that special number in the top-left corner.

[Prince Namor]

I'm really sorry this happened to you. I'm a bit disappointed in CGC, not because the books came back restored, but because the books came back restored AFTER CGC already "verified" that the books weren't restored in the first place. You can analyze, and over analyze CGC's grading capabilities all day, but the fact is that they are proven flip floppers when it comes to their restoration check. Even If this only happens 1% of the time, It still happens, and CGC should take responsibility for not catching the restoration the first time around. I would call CGC and try to work something out with them. Any company with good business ethics should listen to their customers and strive for their satisfaction, especially If the customer is right.

 

Unless the books are cracked in CGC's possession, how do they know they weren't doctored after cracking?

 

Gary, with all due respect, you described a situation where a Hulk 181 flagged for trimming was "reviewed" a second time after you told Steve it was an original owner book bought off the rack, and the book later received a blue label. We don't know what influenced Steve's decision making, but the appearance of bias in the situation can't be overlooked entirely. It's also worth mentioning that yours isn't the first situation where I've heard CGC reconsidering trimming on books based on someone's word it was an off the rack purchase.

 

Using this "taking your word for it" example and comparing it to the OP's current situation, it's disappointing these types of situations are being turned into "how do we know" whether the book was doctored after cracking out especially when CGC has demonstrated a capacity to resolve situations without the need for a thorough forensic examination of where the person grew up, what car they drive, their contribution/participation in our hobby, or what the person had for breakfast for the past month.

 

Even in my own situation, my outcome was achieved absent of prejudice or bias. While I didn't agree with the final decision, especially since I had for years answered calls and provided a second opinion at "no charge" on underground comix under CGC's review to the very person who made the final decision on the outcome, I resigned to understanding CGC's need in maintaining impartiality trumped my request for fairness and my need to understand what happened to my book from the time it left my hands to the time it was returned to me with marks on it revealing it had been used as someone's food tray.

 

To now read the OP's situation being twisted in a way that questions his intent, suggesting he is a liar or someone that we shouldn't completely trust, probably serves as a good primer for the way he might expect to be treated by CGC, but is a real low point for a community that should avoid hijacking the threads awareness element, which IMO ought to be more about exposing the inconsistencies in CGC policy and practice (past to present), and the kinds of questions it raises about the inherent risks associated to having books certified.

 

I get what you're saying here, but...

As a business, where does CGC draw the line on this?

 

Well, so and so in accounting knows this guy so.. we can believe it really was an OO book...? Hey, this guy did our banner ads for us, we can believe this cracked out SS is real....?

 

See it can get tricky.

 

I realize their are a lot of long time friendships and communications among people that extend to those who work for CGC, but when we talk about reputation...

Which is really more damaging?

 

That CGC sets up a standard on how they handle something like this and sometimes it doesn't work out best for the customer?

Or that if you know someone, you can get it taken care of at CGC?

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

There shouldn't be micro-fractions of grades... 20-points and that's it. This increases grade consistency and market stability. As for dealers who make their living capitalizing on these inconsistencies... well... tough.

 

 

You make some interesting points, but this is the one I have the most problems with. In coins, disregarding the "plus" and "star" designations (which have their purposes, too), there are 30 grade designations, from Poor-1 to Mint State-70 (and their corresponding Proof numbers.)

 

Every number between 60 and 70 is represented, and it has tremendously stabilized the market.

 

There's a real issue when a book grades 9.6 and is worth $2,000, but grades 9.4 and is only worth $600. The incentive to CPR is quite obvious. Grade consistency and market stability are not increased at all; quite the opposite.

 

But if a 9.5, which would be worth, say, $1300...that incentive is greatly diminished. This leads to a much more stable and steady market.

 

Eventually, the market will make this demand so overpowering that it can no longer be resisted. If the coinees do it, eventually so must everyone else.

 

And yes, the *concept* of a CVR will also be normalized, too.

 

Two different approaches to logical consistency... I prefer mine (9.4s and 9.6s become 9.5)... but I see where you're coming from with yours as well. Of course, a microdot (or other small method of internally identifying books) would virtually eliminate the CPR practice altogether (a company, of course, has to assume increased consistency and trust will trump the loss in re-sub fees).

 

Extra-multigrade systems exist with two dimensional objects (coins, baseball cards, paper money). Complex paper collectibles have genreally shied away from it (books, pulps, even movie posters despite they're being 2-dimensional). Two 9.5 books don't have to be identical... but the tiny disrepencies they display become the provence of the buyer/bidder in determining which of the two he/she would pay more for. It's also unlikely that everyone will agree, even with visible differences, on which flaws bother them more or less between the two. Thus a grading company determing one is a 9.4 and another a 9.5, or one a 9.7 and another a 9.8, becomes an exercise in whimsy and personal bias, not logical assessment of overall condition. IMHO.

 

I disagree entirely, but you already knew that. I can easily point out books that should be 9.7s, rather than 9.8s, and are definitely not 9.6s, and get the majority of people interested to agree with me...and that's what makes grading viable after all: consensus.

 

Remember...the very act of grading a comic book in the first place is an exercise in whimsy to billions of people living on this planet.

 

 

Also...coins are not two dimensional objects, nor are they treated as such by grading companies.

[marvelcollector]

Spider Dan got the books already cracked? From what i understand he did not crack them. He purchased the books cracked with the labels? How would CGC be able to stand behind books that they have no chain of contact on? How would they know if books where tampered with or swapped out. or if that PGX guy got ahold of them? It has been stated by CGC if those books where in there chain of contact they would work something out to make the buyer whole? I don't know if I have all of the facts right but if I am reading this correctly what is the correct answer? I have already stated that i feel sick for the OP.

 

Hi,

 

Just wondering, were these books bought cracked with the labels stuck in the bag/board? If the case is open and a labels is stuck in there, then I don't know what CGC can do. The labels might not even correspond with the books sold. My sympathies are with the buyer, but I don't know how CGC can compensate for a case that has been already cracked...

 

I know this thread is way long but as stated on page 1, I took the books out of the original blue slabs. Did nothing more than place them in mylar pack them up and send them in.

 

I know CGC has no way of knowing whether I tampered with the books or not. I get it. But I know I DIDN'T, and I'm sure there are a few people who believe me also. Why would I try and CT or trim a book then send it in and get upset when it gets the PLOD. Then come on here and complain about it? Cmon... does my reputation not mean anything?

 

I'm not looking for any compensation as some Boardies have suggested. I'm just furious that CGC missed 2 out of 2 books.

 

To me that is unacceptable, and I wanted to let people here be aware of what happened.

 

Just for the common sense of this alone, CGC should admit to the original mistake(s), refund all fees, and do whatever else to make it right for you, beyond it being simply good business operations.

[hizzy-migration]

That is a tough situation. I would hate to buy a slabbed book and then later see that it wasn't what I thought. For me, I buy CGC because I have (had) confidence in the product. Good luck to you. I hope that the people who sold it to you will offer a refund.

[slym2none]

(Do you) really think that receiving is going to not divulge the fact that the book has already been graded?

 

If we are to put our trust in the company, then yes, yes I do believe that receiving doesn't tell the graders it has already been graded. If one can't believe that, then the entire company is useless in that person's eyes. Why trust the grade at all? Why not believe they swap out books for later prints? Why not just "lose" books and sell them raw to line their pockets?

 

You just took a simple hypothetical scenario of inter-organization communication to perhaps criminal fraud activity. Your point is moot.

 

 

Clearly you think that this communication happens and the graders aren't grading blindly. So tell me, what would the advantage to this be for CGC?

 

Please tell me you were just practicing your typing skills and you didn't seriously ask that question.

 

In case you did ask that question because you couldn't figure it out yourself, get on the couch and share some popcorn with Slym, because here comes the answer...

 

To avoid situations like this.

 

 

 

 

 

-slym (used that heady garlic butter on his 'corn)

[THE_BEYONDER]

Hi All,

 

We want to clarify our stance on this issue. When CGC graders look at a book, they grade only what is in front of them. Submitter information, any history about the book, the graders are not privy to. If a book has been removed from the CGC holder and resubmitted, even if the tag is included, CGC can’t know for certain the book was not altered or damaged in any way. However, if the book is cracked out on our premises, either through CCS or CGC, and restoration is found, we will do our best to make the submitter whole. With CCS here, we also have the ability to see if the restoration can be removed to mitigate the loss. In that event, all fees associated with removal, pressing and grading will be paid for by CGC.

We will be reaching out to Dan today. If any further issues arise and you are not satisfied with our Customer Service, please reach out to me.

hpatel@cgccomics.com

 

Thank you,

Harshen Patel

Director of Operations, CGC

 

[romanheart]

Hi All,

 

We want to clarify our stance on this issue. When CGC graders look at a book, they grade only what is in front of them. Submitter information, any history about the book, the graders are not privy to. If a book has been removed from the CGC holder and resubmitted, even if the tag is included, CGC can’t know for certain the book was not altered or damaged in any way. However, if the book is cracked out on our premises, either through CCS or CGC, and restoration is found, we will do our best to make the submitter whole. With CCS here, we also have the ability to see if the restoration can be removed to mitigate the loss. In that event, all fees associated with removal, pressing and grading will be paid for by CGC.

We will be reaching out to Dan today. If any further issues arise and you are not satisfied with our Customer Service, please reach out to me.

hpatel@cgccomics.com

 

Thank you,

Harshen Patel

Director of Operations, CGC

 

I hope they help you out Dan.

[slym2none]

Hi All,

 

We want to clarify our stance on this issue. When CGC graders look at a book, they grade only what is in front of them. Submitter information, any history about the book, the graders are not privy to. If a book has been removed from the CGC holder and resubmitted, even if the tag is included, CGC can’t know for certain the book was not altered or damaged in any way. However, if the book is cracked out on our premises, either through CCS or CGC, and restoration is found, we will do our best to make the submitter whole. With CCS here, we also have the ability to see if the restoration can be removed to mitigate the loss. In that event, all fees associated with removal, pressing and grading will be paid for by CGC.

We will be reaching out to Dan today. If any further issues arise and you are not satisfied with our Customer Service, please reach out to me.

hpatel@cgccomics.com

 

Thank you,

Harshen Patel

Director of Operations, CGC

 

 

 

 

-slym

[thunsicker]

Hi All,

 

We want to clarify our stance on this issue. When CGC graders look at a book, they grade only what is in front of them. Submitter information, any history about the book, the graders are not privy to. If a book has been removed from the CGC holder and resubmitted, even if the tag is included, CGC can’t know for certain the book was not altered or damaged in any way. However, if the book is cracked out on our premises, either through CCS or CGC, and restoration is found, we will do our best to make the submitter whole. With CCS here, we also have the ability to see if the restoration can be removed to mitigate the loss. In that event, all fees associated with removal, pressing and grading will be paid for by CGC.

We will be reaching out to Dan today. If any further issues arise and you are not satisfied with our Customer Service, please reach out to me.

hpatel@cgccomics.com

 

Thank you,

Harshen Patel

Director of Operations, CGC

 

Yeah, the fact that they are willing to address the issue in non-cracked out comics and even talk to Dan in this case does give me some of my trust back. Well played CGC.

[Bookery]

I realize their are a lot of long time friendships and communications among people that extend to those who work for CGC, but when we talk about reputation...

Which is really more damaging?

 

That CGC sets up a standard on how they handle something like this and sometimes it doesn't work out best for the customer?

Or that if you know someone, you can get it taken care of at CGC?

 

 

Exactly. If it starts getting so that the company treats certain customers better based on reputation, that plays into the whole fears that already exist about favoritism. My reputation in this part of the country is impeccable, but I only do occasional business with CGC, so I'm sure I have no "reputation" to speak of with them.

 

All they can do is double-check to make sure the mistake wasn't made "this time", and that there really isn't restoration on one or both books. If the mistake was made years ago, all they can do is continue to improve on detection.

 

If they start picking and choosing who's reliable, the whole system falls apart.

 

[Spider-Dan]

Hi All,

 

We want to clarify our stance on this issue. When CGC graders look at a book, they grade only what is in front of them. Submitter information, any history about the book, the graders are not privy to. If a book has been removed from the CGC holder and resubmitted, even if the tag is included, CGC can’t know for certain the book was not altered or damaged in any way. However, if the book is cracked out on our premises, either through CCS or CGC, and restoration is found, we will do our best to make the submitter whole. With CCS here, we also have the ability to see if the restoration can be removed to mitigate the loss. In that event, all fees associated with removal, pressing and grading will be paid for by CGC.

We will be reaching out to Dan today. If any further issues arise and you are not satisfied with our Customer Service, please reach out to me.

hpatel@cgccomics.com

 

Thank you,

Harshen Patel

Director of Operations, CGC

 

Yeah, the fact that they are willing to address the issue in non-cracked out comics and even talk to Dan in this case does give me some of my trust back. Well played CGC.

 

I will certainly keep everyone posted on how it goes.

 

The offer has been made to send them back at CGC's cost and they will look them over again. Also my original grading fee will be adjusted to reflect the actual value of the books as they sit. Which is what I asked for in the 1st place

 

So far, so good. Keep an eye on this thread for play by play

[romanheart]

Hi All,

 

We want to clarify our stance on this issue. When CGC graders look at a book, they grade only what is in front of them. Submitter information, any history about the book, the graders are not privy to. If a book has been removed from the CGC holder and resubmitted, even if the tag is included, CGC can’t know for certain the book was not altered or damaged in any way. However, if the book is cracked out on our premises, either through CCS or CGC, and restoration is found, we will do our best to make the submitter whole. With CCS here, we also have the ability to see if the restoration can be removed to mitigate the loss. In that event, all fees associated with removal, pressing and grading will be paid for by CGC.

We will be reaching out to Dan today. If any further issues arise and you are not satisfied with our Customer Service, please reach out to me.

hpatel@cgccomics.com

 

Thank you,

Harshen Patel

Director of Operations, CGC

 

Yeah, the fact that they are willing to address the issue in non-cracked out comics and even talk to Dan in this case does give me some of my trust back. Well played CGC.

 

I will certainly keep everyone posted on how it goes.

 

The offer has been made to send them back at CGC's cost and they will look them over again. Also my original grading fee will be adjusted to reflect the actual value of the books as they sit. Which is what I asked for in the 1st place

 

So far, so good. Keep an eye on this thread for play by play

 

Honestly, they should not have taken so long to hear you out. Their defensive posturing as someone else eluded to in an earlier post is unnecessary and unwelcome, and their overall customer service needs improvement. You win more with good press than protecting yourself against the occasional thief at every turn.

[USArmyParatrooper]

I believe we both feel the same.

 

IMO grading is never subjective and very much cut and dry in most cases.

 

5.0 or 5.5

4.0 or 4.5

 

I will say that low-mid-grade within the same number from a 0 to .5 can be subjective to what day it is, but all other grades I feel a consistent transparent model is firmly in place now.

 

Example the difference between 9.4 and 9.6 is not subjective. At least in my eyes.

 

Of course it's subjective. You don't believe there are many comics that are somewhere between a strong 9.4 and a weak 9.6? Perhaps.. one that is a 9.5?

 

NO

 

Weak 9.6's should be in a 9.4 holder so they are strong 9.4's.

 

Not saying CGC's doesn't do what you said, but difference between 9.4 and 9.6 to me is pretty apparent.

 

 

Okay, then how about a comic that is on the weak side of a midrange 9.4? It doesn't matter where you draw the line. There will always comics that walk along it.

[Gotham Kid]

I'd be quite disappointed that after all this, both books go Blue again. I'd be pleased to hear that at least the CT'd book could be reverted back to Blue, not possible on a trimmed book of course.

[slym2none]

Well this thread has made it to bleeding cool

 

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/02/16/whats-in-a-cgc-slabbed-book-anyway/

 

The comments section...

 

Heh - "tombs" and "snake oil"...

 

 

 

 

-slym