CGC Issue Resolved

[Bronty]

Well it all goes back to what was effectively said before.

 

They do a decent job.

 

But we as a marketplace fail miserably at pricing in the grading uncertainties that are inherent in the process.

[thirdgreenham]

The posts here expressing their expectation that CGC be 100% perfect with their restoration and trimming detection miss the point that CGC is not now, has never been, and has never claimed to be perfect in these regards.. They have stated clearly that while they believe they do an outstanding job with detecting restoration and trimming (and I have no reason to doubt this), they are fallible and sometimes err.

 

Once that concept is understood, it is also easy to understand that every resubmission comes with the small risk that not only the grade but also the label color may change upon re-grading.

 

Perfectly stated.

[Bills Comics]

 

Update - I just talked to CGC, and they told me they would be glad to look them over again, but I would have to pay another submission fee

 

 

What I take from that is . CGC just told you, "Pay us , and we will "fix " it for you "

How could they charge you and not send them back in blue labels now ?

It would make them look even worse than they already do here .

Which pretty much makes CGC even more of a joke .

CGC does not care about Comic collecting. They do not care to do a good , fair job. All they care about is the money .

[RockMyAmadeus]

The solution is fairly straightforward, and it doesn't require CGC to be perfect:

 

Whether it's these books, or your paper-clip indented and "trimmed" Spidey, the fact is, the vast, vast majority of books aren't a problem. So long as these are a tiny percentage of exceptions, then it is entirely within reason that these particular cases get much closer scrutiny, when brought to CGC's attention.

 

That's why these situations are so sensational, because they are mostly very rare. And while they remain very rare, CGC should be willing to reconsider these rare examples as exceptions to the rule, and examine them with a scrutiny that they don't, and shouldn't have to, with the vast majority of problem-free submissions.

 

Isn't that what every good business does? Examines how and why the problem happened, and take steps to fix it so it isn't a problem in the future...? Are they going to go back and review every non-problematic situation? No, not at all. They will review the problem, because that was what was brought to their attention and it is (or, should be) a great rarity.

 

If nothing else, CGC should take these books back, and use them as a learning experience, to consider why they were certified the first way, and what happened with their process in the second analysis that came up with a different result.

 

Because there is an error here, somewhere in the process.

 

Yes, I understand that it requires taking Spider-Dan at his word.

 

Unfortunately, CGC has an entrenched defensive posture mentality, and has a difficult time admitting they have made mistakes, even when it is beyond doubt.

 

CGC has damaged my books on two different occasions, and offered very little in the way of recompense, so I'm familiar with the problem.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

As I said before....

 

The real issue behind the issue is the market's reaction to purple labels.

 

Once that changes...if it changes...all these ancillary problems evaporate.

[paul747]

Spider Dan got the books already cracked? From what i understand he did not crack them. He purchased the books cracked with the labels? How would CGC be able to stand behind books that they have no chain of contact on? How would they know if books where tampered with or swapped out. or if that PGX guy got ahold of them? It has been stated by CGC if those books where in there chain of contact they would work something out to make the buyer whole? I don't know if I have all of the facts right but if I am reading this correctly what is the correct answer? I have already stated that i feel sick for the OP.

[USArmyParatrooper]

The real issue, which no one has brought up in this discussion, is why there is such a vast disparity between the value of a book with no color touch at all, and that same book in the same general condition, with a dot of color touch...

 

The treatment of restored books in this hobby has got to undergo a major reformation.

 

Perhaps just a small dot falls in the realm of having a blue label?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Technically, legally, Spider-Dan has nothing to stand on.

 

But there comes a time in the business world where everything cannot be run on a technical, legal standpoint.

 

If someone is a well-established customer, is well known to the proprietor(s), and presents them with an issue, most will address it, even if the customer cannot prove what they are claiming.

 

It's good business. Trust has to enter in at some point.

[NewWorldOrder]

if you're going to spend thousands of dollars on a book you should either educate yourself on the hobby before spending money

 

You fanboys must have a handbook you pull this stupidity from, right?

Harsh.

 

Scanning the thread, this one keeps jumping out in various forms:

I'm just going to keep stating this until people get it:

 

GRADING IS SUBJECTIVE. RESTORATION ISN'T.

Everytime I see it I think the same thing... BS. Restoration may be even more subjective than grade.

 

Whether bits of this or that gets blue or purple is subjective. CGC reserves that choice.

The dividing line between additive and non-additive was a company decision. CGC declared it.

And unless trimming is horribly obvious, PGX sugar-shakes style edges, declaring a factory trimmed edge as retrimmed is going to come down to a judgement call. CGC says they got better at making those after the Ewert fiasco. No warranty, no guarantee.

 

So if restoration isn't subjective, labeling it damn sure is. Probably more legalese, word play, arbitrary choice and caveats covering it than anything.

 

 

I believe we both feel the same.

 

IMO grading is never subjective and very much cut and dry in most cases.

 

5.0 or 5.5

4.0 or 4.5

 

I will say that low-mid-grade within the same number from a 0 to .5 can be subjective to what day it is, but all other grades I feel a consistent transparent model is firmly in place now.

 

Example the difference between 9.4 and 9.6 is not subjective. At least in my eyes.

[joeypost]

The posts here that express their expectation CGC be 100% perfect with their restoration and trimming detection are missing the point that CGC is not now, has never been, and has never claimed to be perfect in these regards.. They have stated clearly that while they believe they do an outstanding job with detecting restoration and trimming (and I have no reason to doubt this), they are fallible and sometimes err.

 

Once that concept is understood, it is also easy to understand that every resubmission comes with the small risk that not only the grade but also the label color may change upon re-grading.

 

+1. Stinks when it happens but it happens.

 

Sorry guys, but in the real world (i.e. not in fanboyland), businesses are expected to make up for their errors. Make good with the customer. At least the ones who want to survive.

 

If CGC were a different type of company operating in a different market fulfilling the perceived needs of a different customer base, they would be expect to fix the situation. And making Dan pay again is not fixing the problem.

 

I agree Dan should not have to pay again, but all the "what if's" are in writing. Enter at your own risk.

[Bookery]

As I said before....

The real issue behind the issue is the market's reaction to purple labels.

Once that changes...if it changes...all these ancillary problems evaporate.

 

CGC has been a great template for when the truly definitive grading company comes along (it could even be CGC itself if they were willing to offer an all-new corrected system and let collectors decide to keep the old slabs or have them resubmitted to the new system... which would be big $$$ for CGC btw). But whoever was first was inevitably going to have these problems... it simply comes from being first.

 

90% of the "Big" issues with certification on these boards comes from the same inherent illogical approaches in the system. There should never be multi-colored labels (with the possible exception of "signature series"). There should be one standard grade for all... 8.0-looking book with heavy restoration might grade only a 2.0 (with notation as to why)... 8.0-looking book with tiny color-touch on spine might grade a 7.5 or a 7.0 (with notation explaining why).

 

There shouldn't be micro-fractions of grades... 20-points and that's it. This increases grade consistency and market stability. As for dealers who make their living capitalizing on these inconsistencies... well... tough.

 

Someday third-party graders will have to incorporate a small code somewhere inside the book... a tiny repeating of the certification # stamped on a certain page on each book graded, or on a micro-dot, etc. They would grade the book as usual, but afterward compare the code with what they have on file. A book should "never" grade higher than it was previously, but it of course could grade lower if more wear and tear occurred since its last submission. And IF it was decided a mistake was made previously, the code on file is updated to reflect the book's new official grade. This would also give the graders a track record to see how consistent they are being over time and help keep them on course.

 

One thing's for sure... there is somebody somewhere out there who is watching and learning from all of this and will improve their system from having observed this one.

 

 

 

 

 

[NewWorldOrder]

 

Update - I just talked to CGC, and they told me they would be glad to look them over again, but I would have to pay another submission fee

 

 

Good news, I guess - but I have to say I'd be VERY surprised if they came back blue.

 

That would be tantamount to CGC admitting that their restoration detection is a crapshoot, and suicidal on their part.

 

 

I was being sarcastic

 

Yes I was assuming you were being sarcastic as well. Cause of course you can resub them again whenever you want and just pay for a new invoice.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

There shouldn't be micro-fractions of grades... 20-points and that's it. This increases grade consistency and market stability. As for dealers who make their living capitalizing on these inconsistencies... well... tough.

 

 

You make some interesting points, but this is the one I have the most problems with. In coins, disregarding the "plus" and "star" designations (which have their purposes, too), there are 30 grade designations, from Poor-1 to Mint State-70 (and their corresponding Proof numbers.)

 

Every number between 60 and 70 is represented, and it has tremendously stabilized the market.

 

There's a real issue when a book grades 9.6 and is worth $2,000, but grades 9.4 and is only worth $600. The incentive to CPR is quite obvious. Grade consistency and market stability are not increased at all; quite the opposite.

 

But if a 9.5, which would be worth, say, $1300...that incentive is greatly diminished. This leads to a much more stable and steady market.

 

Eventually, the market will make this demand so overpowering that it can no longer be resisted. If the coinees do it, eventually so must everyone else.

 

And yes, the *concept* of a CVR will also be normalized, too.

[RockMyAmadeus]

As I said before....

 

The real issue behind the issue is the market's reaction to purple labels.

 

Once that changes...if it changes...all these ancillary problems evaporate.

 

(By "purple labels", I mean the much broader concept of restoration itself, not the realities of the label color.)

[USArmyParatrooper]

I believe we both feel the same.

 

IMO grading is never subjective and very much cut and dry in most cases.

 

5.0 or 5.5

4.0 or 4.5

 

I will say that low-mid-grade within the same number from a 0 to .5 can be subjective to what day it is, but all other grades I feel a consistent transparent model is firmly in place now.

 

Example the difference between 9.4 and 9.6 is not subjective. At least in my eyes.

 

Of course it's subjective. You don't believe there are many comics that are somewhere between a strong 9.4 and a weak 9.6? Perhaps.. one that is a 9.5?

[comeaux]

I haven’t read the entire thread but are there any pictures of the books when they were in Universal slabs and also in the current Restored slabs?

[thirdgreenham]

As I said before....

The real issue behind the issue is the market's reaction to purple labels.

Once that changes...if it changes...all these ancillary problems evaporate.

 

CGC has been a great template for when the truly definitive grading company comes along (it could even be CGC itself if they were willing to offer an all-new corrected system and let collectors decide to keep the old slabs or have them resubmitted to the new system... which would be big $$$ for CGC btw). But whoever was first was inevitably going to have these problems... it simply comes from being first.

 

90% of the "Big" issues with certification on these boards comes from the same inherent illogical approaches in the system. There should never be multi-colored labels (with the possible exception of "signature series"). There should be one standard grade for all... 8.0-looking book with heavy restoration might grade only a 2.0 (with notation as to why)... 8.0-looking book with tiny color-touch on spine might grade a 7.5 or a 7.0 (with notation explaining why).

 

There shouldn't be micro-fractions of grades... 20-points and that's it. This increases grade consistency and market stability. As for dealers who make their living capitalizing on these inconsistencies... well... tough.

 

Someday third-party graders will have to incorporate a small code somewhere inside the book... a tiny repeating of the certification # stamped on a certain page on each book graded, or on a micro-dot, etc. They would grade the book as usual, but afterward compare the code with what they have on file. A book should "never" grade higher than it was previously, but it of course could grade lower if more wear and tear occurred since its last submission. And IF it was decided a mistake was made previously, the code on file is updated to reflect the book's new official grade. This would also give the graders a track record to see how consistent they are being over time and help keep them on course.

 

One thing's for sure... there is somebody somewhere out there who is watching and learning from all of this and will improve their system from having observed this one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just wondering how you could mark an inside page, somehow, without the owner of the book becoming furious....

[Bookery]

 

There shouldn't be micro-fractions of grades... 20-points and that's it. This increases grade consistency and market stability. As for dealers who make their living capitalizing on these inconsistencies... well... tough.

 

 

You make some interesting points, but this is the one I have the most problems with. In coins, disregarding the "plus" and "star" designations (which have their purposes, too), there are 30 grade designations, from Poor-1 to Mint State-70 (and their corresponding Proof numbers.)

 

Every number between 60 and 70 is represented, and it has tremendously stabilized the market.

 

There's a real issue when a book grades 9.6 and is worth $2,000, but grades 9.4 and is only worth $600. The incentive to CPR is quite obvious. Grade consistency and market stability are not increased at all; quite the opposite.

 

But if a 9.5, which would be worth, say, $1300...that incentive is greatly diminished. This leads to a much more stable and steady market.

 

Eventually, the market will make this demand so overpowering that it can no longer be resisted. If the coinees do it, eventually so must everyone else.

 

And yes, the *concept* of a CVR will also be normalized, too.

 

Two different approaches to logical consistency... I prefer mine (9.4s and 9.6s become 9.5)... but I see where you're coming from with yours as well. Of course, a microdot (or other small method of internally identifying books) would virtually eliminate the CPR practice altogether (a company, of course, has to assume increased consistency and trust will trump the loss in re-sub fees).

 

Extra-multigrade systems exist with two dimensional objects (coins, baseball cards, paper money). Complex paper collectibles have genreally shied away from it (books, pulps, even movie posters despite they're being 2-dimensional). Two 9.5 books don't have to be identical... but the tiny disrepencies they display become the provence of the buyer/bidder in determining which of the two he/she would pay more for. It's also unlikely that everyone will agree, even with visible differences, on which flaws bother them more or less between the two. Thus a grading company determing one is a 9.4 and another a 9.5, or one a 9.7 and another a 9.8, becomes an exercise in whimsy and personal bias, not logical assessment of overall condition. IMHO.

 

[Bookery]

Just wondering how you could mark an inside page, somehow, without the owner of the book becoming furious....

 

Why would the owner be furious? This would be the policy of the grading company and would be known up front. And if it brings consistency and greater trust to the hobby, how would it hurt? We're talking something very small that would need a strong lens to be read, and in many cases might be hardly distinguishable from the normal variance in tones on a page, visible fibers, and other tiny flaws that even the highest-graded books would have.

 

Are you furious when submitting your 9.8 book to CGC that maybe half-a-dozen strangers are physically handling your book before it is finally encased? Or is it something you endure because you value the end product?

 

 

[Jaydee]

As a Collector and Broker for High End comics (Mostly a collector hence my deals fall through and my wallet and closet space suffers) I do purchase restored books and often debate the decreased Value in Purple Label books.

 

Restored books with minor color touch have been given a Scarlet Letter by the industry. An Industry that has shot itself in the foot so many times its lost all 10 toes and then some.

 

CGC is our standard. They have canged. The reslabbing part is just what it is. But what I have seen recently change is amazing.

 

I hear often of a lack of trust in CGC. I trust them that they are

1. Independent

2. Subjective

3. Experts in Grading

 

I dont ask them for Value, What I plan on selling a book for or purchasing one for.

 

If a MINOR color touch is done it can get blue it may get purple. But a 7.5 Blue is not a 9.4 Purple

 

Example a Sunfaded Silver Surfer 4 (MASSIVE COLORS AND RAINBOW BRIDGE) was color faded it would be a waste of a color I would hope it was color touched.

JMO