New Mutants 87 0

[joe_collector]

This is not true.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7171955&fpart=2

 

You realize those circulation numbers are AVERAGES for the entire year, right? You do understand basic math?

 

When Liefed came along in NM 86, the book was a mediocre seller at best, and that's why a kid like him was given the job and co-plotting. As he moved along in the run, and as Cable became more popular, the comic started selling much better and approached The X-Men near the end of the NM run, which is why Liefeld was given X-Force.

 

If the book had only moved 250K copies at the end of NM, he would never, ever have been given his own book with virtual control.

 

And I am not talking out of my butt or using bizarre average circulation figures averages from lower-selling issues earlier in the year, but from actual OS/magazine interviews with Marvel guys, Liefeld comments, magazine articles, and OS advisor reports.

[Bosco685]

And I am not talking out of my butt or using bizarre average circulation figures averages from lower-selling issues earlier in the year, but from actual OS/magazine interviews with Marvel guys, Liefeld comments, magazine articles, and OS advisor reports.

 

I've often wondered how far behind in distribution count those circulation certificates are that were posted in the comics. Those later New Mutants issues seemed to have no distribution bottom when hunting for inventory.

 

Oddly enough, I went to a local store that is known for having a massive inventory. New Mutants 100 first printing was at least 3/4 of a long box. Unfortunately, they store all their inventory without bags/boards. So you had a lot of damaged books from people digging through the boxes over the years.

[joe_collector]

I've often wondered how far behind in distribution count those circulation certificates are that were posted in the comics. Those later New Mutants issues seemed to have no distribution bottom when hunting for inventory.

 

Those distribution numbers are based on an annual count of the circulation divided by 12 issues, and I don't believe some Diamond inventory was included, but I may be wrong - for that time period.

 

And yes, they are also behind the times a bit, and that "12 months" was not immediately preceeding the issue it appeared in, and was a few months back. I just found out that NM 99 has the info in it, with the "last preceeding issue" being noted at 318K. I would estimate that to be around NM 95-96, so NM 98 was certainly higher than 318K (which may not include some DM copies) and I know NM exploded near the end, so I have no idea where this bizarre 250K number for NM 98 comes from.

 

So, even if the entire DM+Diamond print run was included, that means if NM 90-93 sold 150K, 94-97 sold 250K and NM 97-100 sold 500K+, they'd be averaged in for the stated circulation. And NM definitively increased in sales over the Liefeld run, and that can be confirmed through many different sources.

 

Anyone who actually believes the total circulation of NM 98 was only 250K is insane. NM was the hottest thing since sliced bread back then, and to fill demand they produced a second print of NM 87. No need for a second print of NM 98, so you do the math. And contrary to certain whackos on here, NM 98 was a hot issue, but initially due the first appearances of Gideon and Domino, and only peripherally, for the first Deadpool. But people bought it like mad, thinking Gideon or Domino (and maybe Deadpool) would be the "Next Cable". The book had THREE first appearances.

 

I also remember reading/hearing somewhere, a quote from McFarlane (in a documentary?) about how much he was making back on The Hulk ($1 million+/year) and that when the Modern Age started with the Spider-man 1, X-Men 1, X-Force 1 insanity, all their books (ASM, X-Men, NM) were selling over 500K, which was why Marvel gave them carte blanche and effective control.

[Bronty]

I didn't read the article, but it isn't just annual averages that are disclosed on circulation statements. They also disclose the numbers for the single issue closest to the publication of the statement. Not sure which numbers were used in the discussion

[chrisco37]

Yeah, I remember by around #92-93 people were starting to talk about Liefeld as the next McFarlane. Isn't that also when X-tinction Agenda was going on, so they would've probably increased production for that crossover too.

 

Issue 100 was huge, as it was advertised as the lead up to X-Force #1. I bought a bunch of them. I even had buddies that didn't even care for the title buy a bunch of them.

[Bosco685]

Yeah, I remember by around #92-93 people were starting to talk about Liefeld as the next McFarlane. Isn't that also when X-tinction Agenda was going on, so they would've probably increased production for that crossover too.

 

Issue 100 was huge, as it was advertised as the lead up to X-Force #1. I bought a bunch of them. I even had buddies that didn't even care for the title buy a bunch of them.

 

It was definitely a big issue for a series coming to a close. And when you read the letters section, there were already many readers taking an interest in Deadpool appearing in future issues based on what they read in NM 98. He wasn't hot yet. But he was part of a series that was heating up quickly. And enough to qualify for one of the X-Force #1 cards.

 

[Mr 9.8]

 

Where are DP's feet!?!!?

[joe_collector]

 

Where are DP's feet!?!!?

 

I think they got sucked up into his thighs.

[Bosco685]

 

Where are DP's feet!?!!?

 

I think they got sucked up into his thighs.

 

 

Pouchwear o'plenty too.

[Darkowl]

Yeah, I remember by around #92-93 people were starting to talk about Liefeld as the next McFarlane. Isn't that also when X-tinction Agenda was going on, so they would've probably increased production for that crossover too.

 

Issue 100 was huge, as it was advertised as the lead up to X-Force #1. I bought a bunch of them. I even had buddies that didn't even care for the title buy a bunch of them.

 

It was definitely a big issue for a series coming to a close. And when you read the letters section, there were already many readers taking an interest in Deadpool appearing in future issues based on what they read in NM 98. He wasn't hot yet. But he was part of a series that was heating up quickly. And enough to qualify for one of the X-Force #1 cards.

 

 

Those are some seriously deformed legs!

[RockMyAmadeus]

This is not true.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7171955&fpart=2

 

You realize those circulation numbers are AVERAGES for the entire year, right? You do understand basic math?

 

1. There are other, and much superior, sources for print run information than the Statement of Ownership circulation numbers.

 

2. There is no published circulation statement that accounts for issue #98 (or, in fact, #96-100.) The title was cancelled with issue #100, so no further circulation statements were published.

 

When Liefed came along in NM 86, the book was a mediocre seller at best, and that's why a kid like him was given the job and co-plotting. As he moved along in the run, and as Cable became more popular, the comic started selling much better and approached The X-Men near the end of the NM run, which is why Liefeld was given X-Force.

 

This is not true, unless by "approached" you mean "was selling a little more than half of."

 

If the book had only moved 250K copies at the end of NM, he would never, ever have been given his own book with virtual control.

 

This is also not true, evidenced by the fact that that was precisely what happened.

 

Giving hot artists their own books was the status quo. The only New Mutants issue that came anywhere near the X-Men in sales was #100, by which time, of course, the decision had already been made.

 

Speaking of "never, ever have been given his own book", guess how many copies of Amazing Spiderman were being sold during the last 7 issues of McFarlane's tenure (#320-325, 328)....?

 

(Here's a clue: it was about the same, and maybe even a little less, than Liefeld's last 6 issues of New Mutants. I know, shocking!)

 

And I am not talking out of my butt or using bizarre average circulation figures averages from lower-selling issues earlier in the year, but from actual OS/magazine interviews with Marvel guys, Liefeld comments, magazine articles, and OS advisor reports.

 

Please reference these sources. Issue, advisor, names of "Marvel guys", etc.

 

Because along with the circulation statements, I also have the Capital City order numbers for every issue (as does anyone who owns a Krause Standard Catalog of Comic Books.)

 

And here I thought you hated "modern" comic books (which every issue of New Mutants after #93 is, by your definition of Spiderman #1.)

 

[vaillant]

I can’t tell how much I hated the New Mutants when Liefeld started to draw it (and thanks to Bosco for finally allowing me to discover all the behind-the-scenes facts in that Louise Simonson interview).

Bronty wondered for years what made Liefeld toss out a decent cover – I wondered for years what turned overnight a title developed with consistency for years (which was often also excellent) into a mess drawn, and then "written" by Rob Liefeld.

 

I am just happy I finally got a copy of #98 (and in NM+) for free. Case closed (for now).

[vaillant]

Not another joe_collector - RMA quarrel…

[the blob]

my only anecdotal insight is that i see plenty of 97s...indeed i was going through a 50 cent box today and saw 95, 96, 97...99, 100...DAGNABIT! the 98 is always plucked.

 

250K, 300K, 350K...whatever the number is, plenty to go around. i am just so ticked off that I didn't have the vision to be willing to spending a whopping $2 on this book when it was sitting in $2 boxes...as I've posted here many times, I only saw it in a dollar box once in my years of hunting. things could have been different in other parts of the country. i liked deadpool since the mid-90s, so he was on my "hunt down" list, just the idea of spending $2 or $5 on a modern made me ill.

 

i don't think we can go by #100, because that was a glut book

[Bosco685]

my only anecdotal insight is that i see plenty of 97s...indeed i was going through a 50 cent box today and saw 95, 96, 97...99, 100...DAGNABIT! the 98 is always plucked.

That's the story of many Liefeld New Mutant runs.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I've often wondered how far behind in distribution count those circulation certificates are that were posted in the comics. Those later New Mutants issues seemed to have no distribution bottom when hunting for inventory.

 

Those distribution numbers are based on an annual count of the circulation divided by 12 issues, and I don't believe some Diamond inventory was included, but I may be wrong - for that time period.

 

The circulation statements include the total amount of copies printed...Direct and newsstand.

 

And yes, they are also behind the times a bit, and that "12 months" was not immediately preceeding the issue it appeared in, and was a few months back. I just found out that NM 99 has the info in it, with the "last preceeding issue" being noted at 318K.

 

That is the print run for the single issue nearest to filing date, which would be #93 or #95, depending on how Marvel counted it.

 

#93 features a Wolverine appearance, from a time when Wolverine appearances still commanded large orders, and #95 was the first month of the X-Tinction Agenda, an immensely popular crossover.

 

I would estimate that to be around NM 95-96, so NM 98 was certainly higher than 318K

 

Was "certainly" higher...? According to whom?

 

Here are the Cap City numbers for the following issues:

 

#95 - 55,200 (which proved to be too low, as it was a sellout and second printed immediately.)

#96 - 55,500

#97 - 64,400

#98 - 55,200 (back down to #95 levels, and was NOT a sellout.)

#99- 52,800

#100 - 102,000 (and not only was a sellout, but was second AND third printed immediately.)

 

These are PUBLISHED NUMBERS from the #2 Direct market distributor in North America at the time (Diamond being #1. Diamond was and is a DIRECT MARKET distributor.)

 

The Cap City orders for #98 were the SAME as #95, and LOWER than both #96 and #97. What makes you think, then, that the newsstand and Diamond ordered MORE?

 

(which may not include some DM copies) and I know NM exploded near the end, so I have no idea where this bizarre 250K number for NM 98 comes from.

 

It is an estimate, based on published, reliable numbers. Where do YOUR numbers come from....?

 

So, even if the entire DM+Diamond print run was included, that means if NM 90-93 sold 150K, 94-97 sold 250K and NM 97-100 sold 500K+, they'd be averaged in for the stated circulation. And NM definitively increased in sales over the Liefeld run, and that can be confirmed through many different sources.

 

And those sources would be....? If there are many different, how about just 3? 2? 1?

 

As noted above, there is no circulation statement that covers issues #96-100. Those numbers are only recorded by Marvel, which did not release the information, Diamond, which did not release the information, and Cap City, which DID.

 

So, no, the numbers for #96-100 were NOT averaged in to anything.

 

We know for a fact that the single issue closest to the filing date (whether #93 or #95) sold 194,300 copies...and the AVERAGE for the issues #82-93 OR #84-95 was 182,499...meaning the nearest issue (#93 or #95) only sold 6% (here's where those math skills come in handy) more than the AVERAGE for the entire year, *including* non-Liefeld issues. That means that #84 would have to have sold about 170,000 copies to make the average.

 

And guess what? The Cap City numbers for #84 were 32,900, while the Cap City numbers for #93 are 39,300!

 

In other words, the title was improving, but certainly not setting anything on fire.

 

So, where do you get this "500k+" number from, and even worse, SOLD, when the issue nearest to the filing date (#93 or #95) only SOLD 194,300 copies...?

 

How did sales nearly TRIPLE in four months....? Do you imagine ANY comic book published in that era TRIPLED in sales for ANY reason....? Oh, sure, it *sounds* reasonable that a title, especially a hot title, could TRIPLE sales in a month,...and in this era of 10,000 print runs, it's certainly possible...but in 1990? If you think ANY title "tripled" in sales, or even DOUBLED in sales, from that era, in the span of 2-4 months, you're simply not educated about the industry.

 

And why do the Cap City numbers (noted above) not bear out the idea that sales TRIPLED...?

 

For 500k+ to be SOLD, that would have meant 700-800K were PRINTED!

 

This was in 1990, not 1991, or 1992, or 1993. Even X-Men during this time period (the #2 seller after Spiderman) was only being printed in the range of 600,000!

 

But New Mutants were printed to the tune of 700-800k copies...?

 

 

Anyone who actually believes the total circulation of NM 98 was only 250K is insane.

 

If by "insane" you mean "relies on published data from multiple sources, and doesn't rely on 'memories' from 24+ years ago", then yes, those people are "insane."

 

NM was the hottest thing since sliced bread back then, and to fill demand they produced a second print of NM 87.

 

Do you know when they second printed New Mutants #87....? I imagine you don't.

 

No need for a second print of NM 98, so you do the math.

 

That's correct: the issue, unlike #95 and #100, was not a sellout. No need for a second print.

 

And if you know WHEN #87 was second printed, you'll understand why #98 was not.

 

And contrary to certain whackos on here, NM 98 was a hot issue, but initially due the first appearances of Gideon and Domino, and only peripherally, for the first Deadpool. But people bought it like mad, thinking Gideon or Domino (and maybe Deadpool) would be the "Next Cable". The book had THREE first appearances.

 

Do you have ANY evidence of this at all...? Any? Yes, there was *some* talk about the first appearance of Gideon, Deadpool, and Domino, but when New Mutants #98 appeared, there was not that much talk about Cable, much less "the next" Cable. Cable was a $5-$10 book when NM #98 came out (which has already been adequately proven in other threads.)

 

And, after New Mutants #100 came out, there was no more talk about ANY of those characters (Gideon, Domino, and Deadpool) because those characters essentially disappeared from the public consciousness.

 

I also remember reading/hearing somewhere, a quote from McFarlane (in a documentary?) about how much he was making back on The Hulk ($1 million+/year) and that when the Modern Age started with the Spider-man 1, X-Men 1, X-Force 1 insanity, all their books (ASM, X-Men, NM) were selling over 500K, which was why Marvel gave them carte blanche and effective control.

 

 

So much of this is demonstrably false, it's hard to know what to do with the things you say.

 

I'll just say this: if it's not possible for you to disagree with people without insulting them, you really need to stop.

 

And you may try to rewrite history all you wish, but there will always be people with hard data to correct it.

 

So just stop, really.

[vaillant]

my only anecdotal insight is that i see plenty of 97s...indeed i was going through a 50 cent box today and saw 95, 96, 97...99, 100...DAGNABIT! the 98 is always plucked.

That's the story of many Liefeld New Mutant runs.

 

 

The (italian) friend that gifted me the #98 made me a joke, and when he brought me the few issues I was missing (including #98) told me: «Ah, the #98 wasn’t there… I must have not bought it back then», and then he pulled it out.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Not another joe_collector - RMA quarrel

 

If by "quarrel", you mean opinion liberally sprinkled with insults vs. hard data, sure.

 

At some point, people, you need to stop tolerating this kind of behavior, and stop giving equal weight to both sides.

[vaillant]

Not another joe_collector - RMA quarrel

 

If by "quarrel", you mean opinion liberally sprinkled with insults vs. hard data, sure.

 

At some point, people, you need to stop tolerating this kind of behavior, and stop giving equal weight to both sides.

 

I am not giving any weight to sides, I was just joking…

 

BTW, you know what I think about insults…

[RockMyAmadeus]

Trivia:

 

Does anyone know exactly WHAT was "the hot book" when New Mutants #98 came out in December of 1990....?

 

Hint: it wasn't New Mutants #87. It wasn't even a Marvel.