New Mutants 87 0

[RockMyAmadeus]

All I know is that when New Mutants #87 came out it was so freaking hot it was a $25 wall book when issue #95 hit the stands. My friends and I ran to the grocery store and bought every issue of New Mutants starting with 96 to 100 believing they may become "hot" like #87. #98 was the 1st app of Domino and for a split second it look as if that book might take off too. But when multiple reprints of New Mutants #100 and X-Force #1's bagged and multiple cards bleed us dry we left the series feeling disgruntled by issue #5.

 

As I have noted before in detail, there is very little mention of "Cable", "Liefeld" or "New Mutants #87" in the Overstreet update reports that were written in early September of 1990 (the same time issue #95 was about to come out.) There was some mention...but it was very little.

 

What was ultra hot at the time was X-Tinction Agenda, McFarlane Spiderman, and Ghost Rider.

 

Not saying that it wasn't possible that some stores priced it at $25 (after all, I bought my copies from the wall...they were just priced at $1.25 each.)

 

But let's be reasonable, people...don't you think, if an 8 month old comic was selling for $25, it would have been highlighted in several of the Update reports...? Ghost Rider #1 sure was. It WAS a $25 book at this point, and it was mentioned in almost every single update, prominently. McFarlane Spiderman was, too.

 

But Cable, Liefeld, #87....? Buried, mentioned in a scant TWO reports from that month, and mostly by Greg Buls (who admittedly has a keen nose for this stuff.)

 

Why?

 

What possible explanation can there be to explain how, in the September, 1990 Overstreet Update market reports, there are but TWO mentions of this supposedly "ultra hot" book/title/artist?

 

Reason says the memories are from another time period (maybe 6 months LATER), and what was written and published from the time is much more accurate.

 

Rather than rely on memories that are now 24 years old, I'd much rather rely on published information that was written at the time, when the things discussed were happening, by a good cross section of the retailer community.

 

That said, I called my best friend when I was young and told him to pull his multiple copies of 98 and sell them on eBay. We all had numerous copies. That 55k print quote makes me super suspicious. Not saying your wrong RMA but if ten year old kids are buying multiple copies of 98 how can there only be 55k? Just doesn't seem right.

 

That's because it's not right, Whet. And, of course, not at all what I said. 55,200 is the number of orders that Capital City had. Capital City was only part of the distribution market at the time. Diamond was bigger (not much bigger, but bigger), and there were also other, smaller distributors and the newsstand.

 

We use the 55,200 number, along with the SOO numbers, because those are the only numbers available. Then, those numbers are extrapolated to make a reasonable estimate of total print run and sell-through.

 

And the existing numbers are undeniable: the order numbers for #98 were a whopping 15% less than for #97. They were down, just like they were for X-Men #273 and X-Factor #63 (which took the biggest hit....25%.) It is entirely outside the realm of reason to suggest that #97-100 sold "500k copies", for reasons already detailed.

 

Is it possible that Cap City was different from everybody else, and the orders for Diamond and the newsstand were all higher? Sure, anything's possible. Is it likely? No, of course not, not if you know anything about statistics and likelihood.

 

This isn't my "opinion" or what I "remember"...this is published information, available to all, recorded at the time it happened. If anyone else has the numbers that Marvel has/had, please, by all means, share them. If anyone else has Diamond's numbers, please, by all means, share them. If anyone has ANY official numbers, please, by all means, share them.

 

But until anyone does, we can only make reasonable estimates, based on the information we do have. And I seriously doubt that Marvel or Diamond's (or anyone else's for that matter) will show anything substantially different.

[Rip]

I can't speak for everywhere but it got real crazy around issue 100 when we over ordered a boatload of extra copies.

 

By that time everyone knew X-Force 1 was coming out and was going to be super insane with the cards and the polybagged copies. Would be interesting to track down some CBG's during the time. Deadpool was kind of hot early on. Was singled out with his own card and I had a copy of my 98 and Deadpool card signed shortly after X-Force 1 came out at Wonder Con. I know we sold out quickly of the earlier issues which is another reason why we ordered so many 100's. I also know we were one of the larger backstock dealers in CA with around a 1 million books.

 

I don't remember when Cable became a Super hot $20-$30 book, but I know it got crazy before X-Force 1 hit. You couldn't find an issue of 87 when it came out.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Rip

[RockMyAmadeus]

True....a lot happened in the 5 months between #95 and #100. Issue #100 was the catalyst, the tipping point, to Cable/Liefeld/New Mutants hysteria.

 

Simmer simmer simmer simmer....#100 KA-BOOM!!!!!

 

And it was all because of that last page. That last page really sent everyone into hysterics.

[Bronty]

Id argue it was because of the solicitation as well. NM was running along gaining steam and then all of a sudden it gets announced that 100 will be the last issue and Rob will be on a new book. It was everyones last shot at ordering copies of a hot title.

 

My recollection is that the announcement seemingly came out of left field and was the reason #100 was heavily ordered even in comparison to #99.

[Bosco685]

Id argue it was because of the solicitation as well. NM was running along gaining steam and then all of a sudden it gets announced that 100 will be the last issue and Rob will be on a new book. It was everyones last shot at ordering copies of a hot title.

 

My recollection is that the announcement seemingly came out of left field and was the reason #100 was heavily ordered even in comparison to #99.

 

Exactly!

 

I remember when my LCS informed me that NM #100 was going to be the last issue, and to be ready for X-Force #1. It sounded like this was the second coming, it was going to be so huge.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Id argue it was because of the solicitation as well. NM was running along gaining steam and then all of a sudden it gets announced that 100 will be the last issue and Rob will be on a new book. It was everyones last shot at ordering copies of a hot title.

 

My recollection is that the announcement seemingly came out of left field and was the reason #100 was heavily ordered even in comparison to #99.

 

I can get behind that. It wasn't without precedent (McFarlane and Spidey being still fresh), and I'd be interested to see what the advance reorder numbers were.

 

But no doubt, New Mutants #100 was the bombshell that blew everything up. I have little doubt (#2 notwithstanding) that #100 was the highest printed, highest ordered issue of the entire run, doubling both #98 and #99, and 3 times as many as the books in the 80's...and it still sold out and went to a second and third printing.

[chrisco37]

NM 100 was great. Preorder for .75/ea and flip a month later for $10 a pop in trade to dealers (at least that's what I did).

[paul747]

So ........is NM 100 the start of the horrible 90's speculation craze ?

[chrisco37]

I think McSpidey #1 was before that.

[whetteon]

Id argue it was because of the solicitation as well. NM was running along gaining steam and then all of a sudden it gets announced that 100 will be the last issue and Rob will be on a new book. It was everyones last shot at ordering copies of a hot title.

 

My recollection is that the announcement seemingly came out of left field and was the reason #100 was heavily ordered even in comparison to #99.

 

I can get behind that. It wasn't without precedent (McFarlane and Spidey being still fresh), and I'd be interested to see what the advance reorder numbers were.

 

But no doubt, New Mutants #100 was the bombshell that blew everything up. I have little doubt (#2 notwithstanding) that #100 was the highest printed, highest ordered issue of the entire run, doubling both #98 and #99, and 3 times as many as the books in the 80's...and it still sold out and went to a second and third printing.

 

I could get behind that. I have the 1st print, 2nd print and 3rd print to this day. The gold lettering is my favorite which ever print that is.

[whetteon]

So Wizard #1 came out when? 1990? I noticed that one of the books listed in their top ten was New Mutants #87. That makes me think it was a $25 wall book for a variety of LCS. Of course by the time it came out X-Force #1 and New Mutants #100 had apparently also already hit so maybe it's a moot point.

 

 

Wizard 1

 

1. X-Force #1

2. X-Men #248

3. Silver Surfer #50

4. X-Factor #63

5. Spider-Man #1 (Platinum)

6. New Mutants #87

7. Silver Surfer #34

8. Ghost Rider #15

9. Teen Titans #2

10. New Mutants #100 (1st Print)

Edited March 25, 2014 by whetteon

[Bosco685]

So Wizard #1 came out when? 1990? I noticed that one of the books listed in their top ten was New Mutants #87. That makes me think it was a $25 wall book for a variety of LCS. Of course by the time it came out X-Force #1 and New Mutants #100 had apparently also already hit so maybe it's a moot point.

 

 

Wizard 1

 

1. X-Force #1

2. X-Men #248

3. Silver Surfer #50

4. X-Factor #63

5. Spider-Man #1 (Platinum)

6. New Mutants #87

7. Silver Surfer #34

8. Ghost Rider #15

9. Teen Titans #2

10. New Mutants #100 (1st Print)

 

It is a tough one to prove, other than the early prices paid before the guides were reflecting these sales. I didn't catch on to Cable until I saw the Wolverine-Cable cover (I was collecting everything with Wolverine appearances at the time).

 

 

I ended up having to pay $28 a month later in order to complete the New Mutants run up to that point. And being in the NJ-NY area where many comic stores were popping up, this was starting to come up as the average price. Though I found some later going for $18.

[RockMyAmadeus]

So Wizard #1 came out when? 1990? I noticed that one of the books listed in their top ten was New Mutants #87. That makes me think it was a $25 wall book for a variety of LCS. Of course by the time it came out X-Force #1 and New Mutants #100 had apparently also already hit so maybe it's a moot point.

 

 

Wizard 1

 

1. X-Force #1

2. X-Men #248

3. Silver Surfer #50

4. X-Factor #63

5. Spider-Man #1 (Platinum)

6. New Mutants #87

7. Silver Surfer #34

8. Ghost Rider #15

9. Teen Titans #2

10. New Mutants #100 (1st Print)

 

Wizard #1 came out in July of 1991. There's a San Diego Comicon variant of it, as it coincided with the con.

 

New Mutants #87 was a $50-$60 book by then, and X-Force #1 had already been out for a few weeks.

[Crimebuster]

So Wizard #1 came out when? 1990? I noticed that one of the books listed in their top ten was New Mutants #87. That makes me think it was a $25 wall book for a variety of LCS. Of course by the time it came out X-Force #1 and New Mutants #100 had apparently also already hit so maybe it's a moot point.

 

 

Wizard 1

 

1. X-Force #1

2. X-Men #248

3. Silver Surfer #50

4. X-Factor #63

5. Spider-Man #1 (Platinum)

6. New Mutants #87

7. Silver Surfer #34

8. Ghost Rider #15

9. Teen Titans #2

10. New Mutants #100 (1st Print)

 

It is a tough one to prove, other than the early prices paid before the guides were reflecting these sales. I didn't catch on to Cable until I saw the Wolverine-Cable cover (I was collecting everything with Wolverine appearances at the time).

 

 

I ended up having to pay $28 a month later in order to complete the New Mutants run up to that point. And being in the NJ-NY area where many comic stores were popping up, this was starting to come up as the average price. Though I found some later going for $18.

 

I was in the same boat. I had dropped New Mutants a couple years earlier. I had been hearing some buzz about the new Liefeld stuff, but it wasn't until X-Tinction Agenda came around that I bought the tie-ins and discovered it for myself. Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me, but I recall that tracking down the previous Liefeld issues was already costing a few bucks. The $18 you cite for #87 sounds right to me for this period, pre-#100, pre-X-Force.

 

Of course, that was from stores on top of everything. Deals could still be found. I got a #87 and an X-Men #266 for a buck each around this time from a place that wasn't paying attention. I'm sure that #87 had broken out before #100 hit stands though.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'm sure that #87 had broken out before #100 hit stands though.

 

It absolutely had. The problem being encountered is that people "remember" that it was "the hottest thing since sliced bread" during the New Mutants run, before #100.

 

It wasn't.

 

Ghost Rider, McFarlane Spidey, X-Tinction Agenda itself, all dominated the headlines from this time period (the summer and early fall of 1990.)

 

As fall progressed, it was all about Lobo and the continuing X-Tinction Agenda.

 

As fall turned to winter, all of a sudden we had three new huge surprises: Superman #50 and Batman #457 in October, and Robin #1 in November.

 

Supes #50 was almost instantly a $25 book (because the printruns for Supes at this time were pretty low...Cap City orders were an abysmal 22,250 copies!), Bats #457 was a $10 book, and Robin #1 was a $20 book.

 

All three books, of course, instantly going into second printings.

 

Not to say no one was paying attention to New Mutants #87...they were. But it took a back seat during 1990 to other, bigger caliber books. In fact, other than #87, you could still find the other books in the run, prior to #100, for a little more than cover price.

 

In fact, here's an ad from East Coast Comics, that appeared in New Mutants #99 (a full year after #87):

 

 

 

(No New Mutants #99s were harmed in the making of these scans.)

 

Something that's been mentioned once or twice, but mostly overlooked, is that LIEFELD was actually the big ticket draw to the title, more than Cable, at least for a while, and this is reflected in those prices (and, in fact, in the Overstreet Updates). #86 - $10, #87 - $7.

 

So, assuming the ads had to be finalized say, a month before printing...that means that East Coast Comics had, and was willing to sell, copies of New Mutants #87 for a mere $7 at the same time #98 was hitting the stands.

 

Kinda puts the stake in the heart of the' "New Mutants #87 was a $25 wall book in 1990", no? After all...if readers could pick up #99, and see the ad, and send in a check or money order and buy a copy for $7 (all orders were limited to one copy, min order $15, S&H $3)...why would they pay $25 for one? Especially in an era where grade consciousness was fairly non-existent...?

 

 

It all changed with #100.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

That ad is absolutely fascinating.

 

What was also hot at this time? Clearly, McFarlane Amazings...ECC didn't even HAVE a full run for sale, and #300 was a $40 book, while #302-305 were $25!

 

Robocop #1 $6

 

Justice League #1-2 $12

 

X-Men #142 - $8

 

X-Men #248 - $1

 

X-Men #266 - 60 cents

 

NO McFarlane Hulks were available.

 

Punisher #1, 10, and ANNUAL #1 - $22

 

PWJ #1, 6 - $22 (PWJ #1 was a huge book for me. I wanted that book so badly, I could taste it. Something about the cover just speaks to me. Now, I have about 50 copies. )

 

Spect Spidey #158 - $10 (ahhh, Cosmic Spidey...those were the days.)

 

Batman #426 - $40

 

And what even I forgot...

 

Groo #1 - $25 (Marvel)

 

Yes, Groo was HUGE in 1990. Don't know why. I traded a Pacific #1 NM for a VF/NM copy of Batman #251, which I still have.

 

Good call?

 

[MK Ultra]

I've often wondered how far behind in distribution count those circulation certificates are that were posted in the comics. Those later New Mutants issues seemed to have no distribution bottom when hunting for inventory.

 

Those distribution numbers are based on an annual count of the circulation divided by 12 issues, and I don't believe some Diamond inventory was included, but I may be wrong - for that time period.

 

And yes, they are also behind the times a bit, and that "12 months" was not immediately preceeding the issue it appeared in, and was a few months back. I just found out that NM 99 has the info in it, with the "last preceeding issue" being noted at 318K. I would estimate that to be around NM 95-96, so NM 98 was certainly higher than 318K (which may not include some DM copies) and I know NM exploded near the end, so I have no idea where this bizarre 250K number for NM 98 comes from.

 

So, even if the entire DM+Diamond print run was included, that means if NM 90-93 sold 150K, 94-97 sold 250K and NM 97-100 sold 500K+, they'd be averaged in for the stated circulation. And NM definitively increased in sales over the Liefeld run, and that can be confirmed through many different sources.

 

Anyone who actually believes the total circulation of NM 98 was only 250K is insane. NM was the hottest thing since sliced bread back then, and to fill demand they produced a second print of NM 87. No need for a second print of NM 98, so you do the math. And contrary to certain whackos on here, NM 98 was a hot issue, but initially due the first appearances of Gideon and Domino, and only peripherally, for the first Deadpool. But people bought it like mad, thinking Gideon or Domino (and maybe Deadpool) would be the "Next Cable". The book had THREE first appearances.

 

I also remember reading/hearing somewhere, a quote from McFarlane (in a documentary?) about how much he was making back on The Hulk ($1 million+/year) and that when the Modern Age started with the Spider-man 1, X-Men 1, X-Force 1 insanity, all their books (ASM, X-Men, NM) were selling over 500K, which was why Marvel gave them carte blanche and effective control.

 

If it was the hottest and everyone was making stacks of cash, why cancel it?

[Bronty]

So they could sucker specs into buying 100 copies of xforce 1. Easier to sell 100 copies of a number one than a #101. They still eff around with numbering to this day

[Bronty]

That ad is absolutely fascinating.

 

What was also hot at this time? Clearly, McFarlane Amazings...ECC didn't even HAVE a full run for sale, and #300 was a $40 book, while #302-305 were $25!

 

Robocop #1 $6

 

Justice League #1-2 $12

 

X-Men #142 - $8

 

X-Men #248 - $1

 

X-Men #266 - 60 cents

 

NO McFarlane Hulks were available.

 

Punisher #1, 10, and ANNUAL #1 - $22

 

PWJ #1, 6 - $22 (PWJ #1 was a huge book for me. I wanted that book so badly, I could taste it. Something about the cover just speaks to me. Now, I have about 50 copies. )

 

Spect Spidey #158 - $10 (ahhh, Cosmic Spidey...those were the days.)

 

Batman #426 - $40

 

And what even I forgot...

 

Groo #1 - $25 (Marvel)

 

Yes, Groo was HUGE in 1990. Don't know why. I traded a Pacific #1 NM for a VF/NM copy of Batman #251, which I still have.

 

Good call?

 

 

Value aside Ill take the groo all day long! And I like Adams alot

[RockMyAmadeus]

I've often wondered how far behind in distribution count those circulation certificates are that were posted in the comics. Those later New Mutants issues seemed to have no distribution bottom when hunting for inventory.

 

Those distribution numbers are based on an annual count of the circulation divided by 12 issues, and I don't believe some Diamond inventory was included, but I may be wrong - for that time period.

 

And yes, they are also behind the times a bit, and that "12 months" was not immediately preceeding the issue it appeared in, and was a few months back. I just found out that NM 99 has the info in it, with the "last preceeding issue" being noted at 318K. I would estimate that to be around NM 95-96, so NM 98 was certainly higher than 318K (which may not include some DM copies) and I know NM exploded near the end, so I have no idea where this bizarre 250K number for NM 98 comes from.

 

So, even if the entire DM+Diamond print run was included, that means if NM 90-93 sold 150K, 94-97 sold 250K and NM 97-100 sold 500K+, they'd be averaged in for the stated circulation. And NM definitively increased in sales over the Liefeld run, and that can be confirmed through many different sources.

 

Anyone who actually believes the total circulation of NM 98 was only 250K is insane. NM was the hottest thing since sliced bread back then, and to fill demand they produced a second print of NM 87. No need for a second print of NM 98, so you do the math. And contrary to certain whackos on here, NM 98 was a hot issue, but initially due the first appearances of Gideon and Domino, and only peripherally, for the first Deadpool. But people bought it like mad, thinking Gideon or Domino (and maybe Deadpool) would be the "Next Cable". The book had THREE first appearances.

 

I also remember reading/hearing somewhere, a quote from McFarlane (in a documentary?) about how much he was making back on The Hulk ($1 million+/year) and that when the Modern Age started with the Spider-man 1, X-Men 1, X-Force 1 insanity, all their books (ASM, X-Men, NM) were selling over 500K, which was why Marvel gave them carte blanche and effective control.

 

If it was the hottest and everyone was making stacks of cash, why cancel it?

 

I wouldn't put any stock in that post. Most of that information is completely wrong, and the information that isn't wrong is greatly distorted.

 

When questioned, there are no sources given for any of it.