Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[greggy]

Suck it, Roy

 

holy carp where'd he come from?

Canada.

[techtre2003]

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

Without reading the next 100 pages of responses and helping sway my decision, my first initial reaction to this is good job for addressing it, but I don't see how the process of buying a book to take it off the market helps anything. The real problem lies in the fact that trimming cannot be detected 100% of the time so what are you going to do to address that issue going forward

 

Some suggestions: How about taking trimming away from getting a purple lablel and just making it a note on a blue label? How about making graders notes FREE for books with resto at least? How about including proof of your findings for the owners of the book with trimmed/resto books with pictures FREE of charge. How about if you buy a CGC membership you get some of the above included free with membership?

 

I can understand mistakes being made, but what just happened with the JIM 83 is a real eye opener for a lot of people on these boards (people who really drive the CGC market). CGC needs to start being held accountable better with restoration detection from this debacle that just happened.

And if it's a huge trim green label it.

 

And if it's like this JIM 83 put it in an orange label that simply reads: ? hell if I know

[VintageComics]

Without Kav, this thread would be three pages.

 

People used to say that about me.

 

Compared to him, you're a Tibetan monk.

 

Now you're making me sound like Park.

 

 

You mean out and out awesome?

 

Your Kung Fu always was better.

 

Trimming, shrimming. Get over here.

 

 

I'm now officially Parkophobic.

[Logan510]

Suck it, Roy

 

Don't ever touch me again.

Now that I know your kryptonite, I'm going to tickle you all the time.

 

 

I was going to put this in the out of context thread, but it seems completely in context.

[Park]

Without Kav, this thread would be three pages.

 

People used to say that about me.

 

Compared to him, you're a Tibetan monk.

 

Now you're making me sound like Park.

 

 

You mean out and out awesome?

 

Your Kung Fu always was better.

 

Trimming, shrimming. Get over here.

 

 

I'm now officially Parkophobic.

 

[MediumLover]

[VintageComics]

Without Kav, this thread would be three pages.

 

People used to say that about me.

 

Compared to him, you're a Tibetan monk.

 

Now you're making me sound like Park.

 

 

Park is a table dancer.

 

Park is a table dancer kind of like that crazy aunt who kind of used to be a belly dancer at family functions back in the 1970's but nobody has the heart to ask her to hang up the zills.

[mrmyst]

Zills, you say?

[mrmyst]

Suck it, Roy

 

holy carp where'd he come from?

Canada.

 

CGC should stop taking submissions from Canadians. Help TATs a bit.

[COI]

Without Kav, this thread would be three pages.

 

People used to say that about me.

 

Compared to him, you're a Tibetan monk.

 

Now you're making me sound like Park.

 

 

Park is a table dancer.

 

Park is a table dancer kind of like that crazy aunt who kind of used to be a belly dancer at family functions back in the 1970's but nobody has the heart to ask her to hang up the zills.

 

I think you're the only one who had a belly dancing aunt.

 

Got a pic?

[MetalPSI]

Without Kav, this thread would be three pages.

 

People used to say that about me.

 

Compared to him, you're a Tibetan monk.

 

Now you're making me sound like Park.

 

 

Park is a table dancer.

 

Park is a table dancer kind of like that crazy aunt who kind of used to be a belly dancer at family functions back in the 1970's but nobody has the heart to ask her to hang up the zills.

 

I think you're the only one who had a belly dancing aunt.

 

Got a pic?

 

oh no....Google...

[kav]

Ok I think it's time for Kav to come back....

[Park]

Without Kav, this thread would be three pages.

 

People used to say that about me.

 

Compared to him, you're a Tibetan monk.

 

Now you're making me sound like Park.

 

 

Park is a table dancer.

 

Park is a table dancer kind of like that crazy aunt who kind of used to be a belly dancer at family functions back in the 1970's but nobody has the heart to ask her to hang up the zills.

 

[Moondog]

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

I'm curious how long some posters think CGC graders spend on a book. 12 seconds? 20?

Some of the posts seem like they imagine Graders do extensive CSI type investigative exams.

 

This goes back to my statement that CGC needs more professional graders. To properly examine and grade GA and SA books takes too much time at the prices they charge. If they raise prices and then hire more graders and give them more time to grade each book, scams like this will diminish.

 

Now, what new pricing structure can the market bear? I know I would pay 50% more.

 

If it appears I'm campaigning for higher prices - I'm not. I'm campaigning for better results.

 

 

There is already a premium attached to grading pre-1980 books, and unless you are using the value tier for grading at least 15 books you're comfortable insuring for $150 or less, then it 's going to cost you at least $40 - $50 bucks a book to grade them now once shipping is factored in. Raise prices by 50% and it's probably going to mean a lot less under $300 GA thru BA books sent in.

 

Though from a raw low-mid grade collector's point of view, that might not be a bad thing.

 

Well, that's the trick. What will the market bear? Right now there aren't enough experienced collectors/dealers willing to work for the wages they're paying. Getting the resto check and grade right is what it's all about. How much is that worth?

[Ogami]

Without Kav, this thread would be three pages.

 

People used to say that about me.

 

Compared to him, you're a Tibetan monk.

 

Now you're making me sound like Park.

 

 

You mean out and out awesome?

 

Your Kung Fu always was better.

 

Trimming, shrimming. Get over here.

 

 

I'm now officially Parkophobic.

 

 

I heard my name whispered on the wind.

[Ogami]

Without Kav, this thread would be three pages.

 

People used to say that about me.

 

Compared to him, you're a Tibetan monk.

 

Now you're making me sound like Park.

 

 

Park is a table dancer.

 

Park is a table dancer kind of like that crazy aunt who kind of used to be a belly dancer at family functions back in the 1970's but nobody has the heart to ask her to hang up the zills.

 

I think you're the only one who had a belly dancing aunt.

 

Got a pic?

 

Okay, that time I DEFINITELY heard my name...

[Moondog]

EVERY book with good edges 'might be trimmed'. Every one. IMO trimming has too much stigma. If it's very very minor and basically undetectable it should be like pressing.

 

CGC said they cannot detect pressing with 100% certainty so that is why pressed books get blue label.

 

Next I guess if CGC cannot detect micro-trimming with 100% certainty then you will see micro-trimmed books getting blue label.

 

Soon, you will have people offering micro-trimming service and most of CGC blue labels will be pressed, micro-trimmed, spine reversed and costanzed.

 

Is this where you think the hobby is going ?

 

Undetected micro-trimming already get a blue label.

[Park]

Without Kav, this thread would be three pages.

 

People used to say that about me.

 

Compared to him, you're a Tibetan monk.

 

Now you're making me sound like Park.

 

 

You mean out and out awesome?

 

Your Kung Fu always was better.

 

Trimming, shrimming. Get over here.

 

 

I'm now officially Parkophobic.

 

 

I heard my name whispered on the wind.

 

From five miles away through the trees?

 

PS Roy never whispers.*

 

 

*That sounds so creepy but I am leaving it.

[ttfitz]

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

Thanks for the response.

 

Can you tell us how you came to the conclusion it is trimmed this time? Did you get the book back from the buyer and re-inspect it? Or did you just go with what you remembered from the last time you inspected it for Spider-Dan? If so, then why couldn't anyone remember this rare, pricey book just weeks after a bunch of hoopla surrounded it? (Remember, EVERYONE inspected it and determined it was trimmed for Spider-Dan). So how could NO ONE possibly remember this book just several weeks later when it was brought it for a re-sub? Can you tell us who the re-subber was? Can you tell us if the same graders and resto experts looked at it during the walk through? Who was on duty that day?

 

I know it's a lot of questions, but we all have a lot of doubts about CGC right now.

 

EDIT: Also, I hope you (CGC) didn't wait till almost 5pm to post a response, on purpose. It gives one the impression that you did it to avoid responding to any follow up questions because everyone has gone home for the day.

 

My guess here is that when Harshen told Dan that everyone with any credibility in the facility said it was trimmed, he was refering to those within the facility that specialize in resto detection, not their normal graders. So he probably showed it to Paul and Matt, since those would be the 2 people best suited to identify resto. Why would he show it to ALL of their graders? Upon resub, if the graders didn't catch any red flags, it was probably not looked at by Matt, Paul or Harshen again. Unless one of them looks at EVERY book, which I don't know if it is the case.

 

I've not finished the thread, but has anyone made note of this, from their description of the grading process on the website:

 

Before any grading is performed, each book is examined by a CGC restoration detection professional. If any form of restoration work is detected, this information is entered into the computer so that it will be available to the grading team.

 

This would suggest that, if it is as you state and Paul and Matt are those to discover restoration, then they would be looking at every book.

 

[VintageComics]

From five miles away through the trees?

 

PS Roy never whispers.*

 

 

*That sounds so creepy but I am leaving it.