Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[VintageComics]

A single person's dealings with any given dealer of choice vs. their own subjective idea of consistency and the entirely different position of the masses raking CGC over the coals over their consistency are two very different things. There are some significant variables that in my opinion do NOT make for easy comparison.

 

a) sample size - we're looking at nearly 3 Million books from CGC compared to several dozen or several hundred books from even the largest dealers.

 

b) the lack of internal audit with a dealer - does anyone go back and check with dealer's grading standards over a period of time? I know I don't.

 

Most 'consistent grading' dealers are really dealers who undergrade IMO. Those are the guys that you come to realize you need to buy your books from because they're leaving coin on the table.

 

Whether they grade a book a VF or a VF+ or a VF/NM, nobody really cares that they are inconsistent if it's going to grade out a NM.

 

So we're really talking about several things (yet again) and bunching up our panties over slightly different things.

[Comicopolis]

[Flaming_Telepath]

CGC puts their grades on every book that goes through their office. It shouldn't be too daunting for you and a few other vendors to do the same.

 

And I do put my grades on every book I sell...and I guarantee them to one point of variance if submitted to CGC.

 

Yes, guarantee.

 

Which is more of a guarantee than CGC's.

 

Don't you think it's kind of weird to say that CGC is inconsistent, then say that you guarantee your books to be within one point of that inconsistent grade? Why take returns based on a system you believe to be flawed?

 

For the record, I agree with you on CGC fluctuations...which is why I would never guarantee something like that.

 

Why would I offer a guarantee based on a system I think is flawed?

 

Because a lot of my customers don't necessarily have the same viewpoint and I'd rather make them feel comfortable and confident than argue the toss with them.

 

You spend a good amount of time on here blasting CGC, I would think you would relish the opportunity.

 

Apart from this thread, can you point me in the direction of the last time I blasted CGC?

 

And I do share my thoughts on CGC with customers when the subject is raised...but that doesn't mean that I'm going to remove their safely net.

[cheetah]

Cheetah already named names, in a very interesting and informative golden age thread.

 

That was a good thread.

 

Thanks, but you'd have to leave the comforts of the Romper Room to read it. Some people don't get out enough.

[comicwiz]

Maybe one of you can recap the names.

 

Seems strange for someone to ask for names, then turtle when asked to provide their own - worse of which, to come on and tear a new one into "dealers who can't grade" like some motivation of fear that should compel all collectors to run in droves to have their books graded by CGC.

 

 

[cheetah]

CGC puts their grades on every book that goes through their office. It shouldn't be too daunting for you and a few other vendors to do the same.

 

And I do put my grades on every book I sell...and I guarantee them to one point of variance if submitted to CGC.

 

Yes, guarantee.

 

Which is more of a guarantee than CGC's.

 

Don't you think it's kind of weird to say that CGC is inconsistent, then say that you guarantee your books to be within one point of that inconsistent grade? Why take returns based on a system you believe to be flawed?

 

For the record, I agree with you on CGC fluctuations...which is why I would never guarantee something like that.

 

Why would I offer a guarantee based on a system I think is flawed?

 

Because a lot of my customers don't necessarily have the same viewpoint and I'd rather make them feel comfortable and confident than argue the toss with them.

 

I see the logic in this, especially as most customers likely won't even put it to the test, and even if they do they're not going to complain if CGC comes back more than one point higher. Also one point is two grades if I understand correctly, and if one has any sense of CGCs grading, one is likely to come within a point more than 95% of the time. I'm probably that consistent just based on scans in the guess the grade thread.

 

No, one point is one grade...the difference between a 8.0 and an 8.5, or a 9.2 and a 9.4.

 

I call them 'grade increments.' It seems to reduce some of the confusion.

[Rip]

Cheetah already named names, in a very interesting and informative golden age thread.

 

That was a good thread.

 

Thanks, but you'd have to leave the comforts of the Romper Room to read it. Some people don't get out enough.

 

[Comicopolis]

Cheetah already named names, in a very interesting and informative golden age thread.

 

That was a good thread.

 

Thanks, but you'd have to leave the comforts of the Romper Room to read it. Some people don't get out enough.

 

I knew it. All this has really been about how the GA forum is superior to Comics General.

 

[techtre2003]

 

If, in their opinion, the book is a 6.0, that book is NOT necessarily going to be a 6.0 by everyone's standards, including professionals who have been active longer than CGC.

 

If you send a book in and three of CGC's graders decide together on a 6.0 one day, then their honest opinion at that point in time is that it's a 6.0. If they say, "Hey, Paul, I'm pretty sure this one is restored." Paul says, "Yeah, I agree, but I can't be sure - I'm gonna check with a few more people," and they all agree (in their educated opinion) that it is trimmed, then the CGC designation will reflect that. Once again, that is just the company's opinion.

 

If they get the book on a different day and a different pregrader looks at it and evaluates the book using his experience and it seems to be non-trimmed and there isn't anything prompting him to look deeper or longer than any other book that gets submitted, then why would he? He passes the book on to the Primary Grader without a "trimmed" designation and the Primary Grader has no reason to dig deeper (unless he notices something the pregrader doesn't, which I'm sure happens from time to time). Then, it gets the blue label.

 

 

I can post scans in the Please Grade My section and get the same service; except there I'll have my answer within the hour.

 

You are mostly correct - it's not the same service because you only get to evaluate the front and back covers of the books, ignoring interior covers, pages, feel of the book, smell, et al.

 

That being said, you're STILL only requesting opinions, so if you prefer that service, use that instead of CGC.

 

True, but really isn't the cover the major part of the grade. I can count the pages, feel if they are brittle, see if there is an off smell (I thought only Vault did that one ) etc..

 

I'm not a high dollar/high grade collector so I actually do just prefer to get other non-professional opinions. I lucked into a really nice silver age book a while back and that has been my one and only CGC submission. And that was because I was selling it and I knew people would pay 3 times as much for it because CGC said my nice looking book looked nice

 

[cheetah]

Maybe one of you can recap the names.

 

Seems strange for someone to ask for names, then turtle when asked to provide their own - worse of which, to come on and tear a new one into "dealers who can't grade" like some motivation of fear that should compel all collectors to run in droves to have their books graded by CGC.

 

 

I like to see you squirm because you do it so deliciously. I want you and Nick to name names because you are giving unsupported arguments as fact. Typical internet barristers with no legs to stand on.

 

Here, I'll make it easy on you. It was a different subject but close enough. Care to support your claims as much?

 

Link

[CBT]

 

I acknowledge the "small town" tendencies in our hobby, which leads to people developing sentiment towards certain people/dealers. But the sentiment of "dealer X can't detect restoration" or "they don't grade consistently" might have been a gleaming feature of CGC's impartial grading, because it removes the personal brand tied to by ownership.

 

That once gleaming benefit however is eroding with this thread, and other threads which have demonstrated their inconsistency, and perceived inability to detect restoration.

 

 

quiet, these arent the droids you are looking for.

 

Please talk to people with 10,000+ posts, who are buddies with the guys running the show, and if you have any more questions

 

just read this article,http://www.justafanboy.com/PGX/

 

keep quiet, and send all your money to CGC

[chrisco37]

Maybe one of you can recap the names.

 

Seems strange for someone to ask for names, then turtle when asked to provide their own - worse of which, to come on and tear a new one into "dealers who can't grade" like some motivation of fear that should compel all collectors to run in droves to have their books graded by CGC.

 

 

Here's the thread - Dealer Comparison

 

The dealers that were part of the sampling were:

 

Heritage, Metro, Harley, Storms, Ritter, and Payette

 

[rjpb]

CGC puts their grades on every book that goes through their office. It shouldn't be too daunting for you and a few other vendors to do the same.

 

And I do put my grades on every book I sell...and I guarantee them to one point of variance if submitted to CGC.

 

Yes, guarantee.

 

Which is more of a guarantee than CGC's.

 

Don't you think it's kind of weird to say that CGC is inconsistent, then say that you guarantee your books to be within one point of that inconsistent grade? Why take returns based on a system you believe to be flawed?

 

For the record, I agree with you on CGC fluctuations...which is why I would never guarantee something like that.

 

Why would I offer a guarantee based on a system I think is flawed?

 

Because a lot of my customers don't necessarily have the same viewpoint and I'd rather make them feel comfortable and confident than argue the toss with them.

 

I see the logic in this, especially as most customers likely won't even put it to the test, and even if they do they're not going to complain if CGC comes back more than one point higher. Also one point is two grades if I understand correctly, and if one has any sense of CGCs grading, one is likely to come within a point more than 95% of the time. I'm probably that consistent just based on scans in the guess the grade thread.

 

No, one point is one grade...the difference between a 8.0 and an 8.5, or a 9.2 and a 9.4.

 

(thumbs u Got it. It gets confusing when grade point is substituted for grade increment ( perhaps because in school bringing your grades up a full grade point refers to the left side of the decimal). Hats off to an excellent sales tool, that while obviously requiring tight grading, insures little complaint about coming only one grade under, and high confidence in buyers who will never submit anyway. Well worth the risk of the unexpected surprise now and then. Besides if I were to buy a book from a dealer that both of us thought was an 8.5 and it came back from CGC a 7.5, I'm likely to think it was CGC that got it wrong.

[VintageComics]

 

Please talk to people with 10,000+ posts, who are buddies with the guys running the show, and if you have any more questions

 

 

Most large volume dealers (and I would now say board members who frequent many shows) both know each other and know CGC employees personally. It's a small world.

 

That still doesn't change the fact that the majority of books are impartially graded.

 

What is your point?

 

[chrisco37]

Cheetah already named names, in a very interesting and informative golden age thread.

 

That was a good thread.

 

Thanks, but you'd have to leave the comforts of the Romper Room to read it. Some people don't get out enough.

 

The GA forum is a dangerous place. I don't go there too often as it's a quick way to expand the want list.

 

 

[VintageComics]

Cheetah already named names, in a very interesting and informative golden age thread.

 

That was a good thread.

 

Thanks, but you'd have to leave the comforts of the Romper Room to read it. Some people don't get out enough.

 

The GA forum is a dangerous place. I don't go there too often as it's a quick way to expand the want list.

 

 

I thought it was dangerous because of all the canes and walkers in the room.

 

[chrisco37]

Cheetah already named names, in a very interesting and informative golden age thread.

 

That was a good thread.

 

Thanks, but you'd have to leave the comforts of the Romper Room to read it. Some people don't get out enough.

 

The GA forum is a dangerous place. I don't go there too often as it's a quick way to expand the want list.

 

 

I thought it was dangerous because of all the canes and walkers in the room.

 

I originally had written something about broken hips, but it was edited out of respect for my elders.

[VintageComics]

Cheetah already named names, in a very interesting and informative golden age thread.

 

That was a good thread.

 

Thanks, but you'd have to leave the comforts of the Romper Room to read it. Some people don't get out enough.

 

The GA forum is a dangerous place. I don't go there too often as it's a quick way to expand the want list.

 

 

I thought it was dangerous because of all the canes and walkers in the room.

 

I originally had written something about broken hips, but it was edited out of respect for my elders.

 

I'm your elder and I thank you for that.

[jaeldubyoo]

They looked at the book-said it wasnt trimmed

Looked at it again-said it was trimmed

Looked at it again, said not trimmed

Looked at it AGAIN-showed it to everyone-said it was trimmed

HAVEN'T looked at it again but confirm it is trimmed....

Yeah-nonsense...

 

People are giving Kav a hard time, but this post is a pretty good recap of this situation.

IMO, the problem is not that CGC made a mistake, or that CGC is sometimes inconsistent in his grading. The big problem is that he made the same mistake 3 times on the same book. This is no longer a mistake, it's unability to detect a given defect (in this case, trimming). If they can not detect trimming (unless it's obvious), they should rethink his policy about trimming.

They graded almost 3 millions comics, how many books out there sit in the wrong slab?

If the error rate (not only trimming, but all possible defects combined) is only 1%, there are 30000 wrong slabs out there. In my book, 30000 is a huge number, even more if we consider that most of the books would be GA-SA comics.

 

We have no way of knowing how many CGC graded books that are sitting in the wrong slab. But I bet you it's more than what most of the collectors out there think. Not only micro-trimming that may be hard to detect, but easier to detect resto like CT slip through with blue label. It's a given that they're only human and mistakes will be made, but it makes you wonder at what rate and whether that rate is acceptable to most collectors.

 

Another thing to consider is that there are probably many more cases like this, but most don't make it public. The OP spoke up. How many didn't and bit the bullet? Is this the tip of the iceberg?

 

 

[CBT]

Most large volume dealers (and I would now say board members who frequent many shows) both know each other and know CGC employees personally. It's a small world.

 

That still doesn't change the fact that the majority of books are impartially graded.

 

What is your point?

 

My point is the mods and company men in the thread(on their real accounts) trying to attack the seller and the buyer, when CGC is at fault.

 

If PGX or any other company had this happen to them, people would be paying to host sites, and linking to it. Again I am not defending PGX or advocating, just talking about the hypocrisy that the attack dogs spew when they are fighting to protect their lunch.

 

Transparency and Accountability is what CGC needs to increase in spades.

Edited April 2, 2014 by CBT