Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[namisgr]

Maybe one of you can recap the names.

 

Seems strange for someone to ask for names, then turtle when asked to provide their own - worse of which, to come on and tear a new one into "dealers who can't grade" like some motivation of fear that should compel all collectors to run in droves to have their books graded by CGC.

 

 

I like to see you squirm because you do it so deliciously. I want you and Nick to name names because you are giving unsupported arguments as fact. Typical internet barristers with no legs to stand on.

 

Here, I'll make it easy on you. It was a different subject but close enough. Care to support your claims as much?

 

Link

 

So, you've been disputing our claims based on data you collated...using CGC as the 'test'?

 

Can you not see that it's impossible to dispute what I've said (that CGC is inherently inconsistent) by judging dealers' consistency against CGC and against each other?

 

I know you read my comment that it wasn't 'to the same. Did you choose to ignore it on purpose?

 

I had missed your thread in the GA forum, and appreciate the referral to it now. Your data are interesting and informative, but unfortunately their interpretation is skewed by two aspects of the design: pressing and CGC. One of Nick's points on which I agree is that a data set that uses the CGC grade (post-pressing, no less) as the comparator grade is inherently flawed by the variability that exists within CGC itself at assigning grades.

 

And a congrats to Bob Storms for being the most conservative (relative to CGC) among the 7 graders evaluated.

[techtre2003]

The first time I heard of CGC or anything like it was in an ad in the CBG looking to hire graders and other workers. At the time I thought it was a non-starter as fans wouldn't want their books encapsulated in plastic, but a few shop owners convinced me that the end result would be that I could call up a store in California and have them ship me a FF #1 sight unseen because it was in a plastic slab that stated it was a 6.0.

The whole idea behind CGC was to gain the ability to buy sight unseen, with confidence.

That seems a long time ago, these days.

 

Bingo! This is the ONLY reason I can see for CGC to exist. When it becomes: might be a 6.0 might be a 7.0, might be trimmed, might not that's where I fail to see the purpose.

[thunsicker]

Man I picked the wrong week to vacation in England. Fascinating reading to say the least.

[Artboy99]

I sure would like to have the ability to jump to any page I want in a thread. I have not looked at this thread for awhile and I see the title has been updated with new info on April 1st, but there have been 175 posts I have not read.

I would love to be able to do a drop down jump to page 96.

 

As it is, I dont have time to click forward or back passed 40 pages in a thread.

[chrisco37]

I sure would like to have the ability to jump to any page I want in a thread. I have not looked at this thread for awhile and I see the title has been updated with new info on April 1st, but there have been 175 posts I have not read.

I would love to be able to do a drop down jump to page 96.

 

As it is, I dont have time to click forward or back passed 40 pages in a thread.

 

That would be a great feature.

[Loukayza]

This works as a plan B, but in the URL of the website, just hand-key change the last item of the URL. for example, right not it says "...fpart=135". If you replace the 135 with 100, it takes you back to page 100.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

I sure would like to have the ability to jump to any page I want in a thread. I have not looked at this thread for awhile and I see the title has been updated with new info on April 1st, but there have been 175 posts I have not read.

I would love to be able to do a drop down jump to page 96.

 

As it is, I dont have time to click forward or back passed 40 pages in a thread.

 

That would be a great feature.

 

You already can. Just change the number in the URL.

[techtre2003]

This works as a plan B, but in the URL of the website, just hand-key change the last item of the URL. for example, right not it says "...fpart=135". If you replace the 135 with 100, it takes you back to page 100.

 

This. Or just show more posts per page. I only have 27 pages for the entire thread.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

The reason why Nick's quote isn't absolutely true to me is because a single dealer can have good and bad days as well.

 

I had a very long winded conversation with a long time dealer and he said something along these lines: "Dealers buy and profit from other dealer's mistakes."

 

He's absolutely right.

 

You buy some dealer's SA books because he grades them as VF's and you can sell them as proper NM-'s.

 

Or a dealer under prices his books not realizing that prices have changed.

 

Or a dealer doesn't realize what he has in his inventory.

 

Dealers get busy, tired and distracted the way a grader might. I can't even remember how many dealers have told me they'll grade a box of books sitting at their feet while watching a ball game or a TV show. And these are well respected, tight graders on the con circuit.

 

At least with more than one set of eyes looking at a book, there is more than one opportunity to catch something that the first person misses.

 

The bottom line is that you can't remove humanity from the equation. You can only try to.

 

Even this is only partly true, because it doesn't factor in genuine differences of opinion as to how certain flaws affect a grade. That first dealer "VF" may be because it has, oh, say, a 1/4" slightly color breaking crease in the corner, and he/she doesn't think CB creases belong in the NM range at all, and grades accordingly.

 

And there are plenty of dealers who look for "accurate" grading, because they know they can raise the grade and not be questioned about it. It's not just making money off of other's "mistakes."

 

FT's point still stands (look, RMA defending FT, for which no credit will be given ): you'll get more consistency from the same dealer over and over again because you establish a picture of how that dealer grades (even taking into account "good and bad days"), even if that dealer consistently over/undergrades. At CGC, you don't know, and cannot control, who sees your books, and so don't know what flaw(s) will bother one grader over another. There's no way to get consistency because the parameters change with every pair of eyes.

 

As I've said for the ten thousandth time, and will say ten thousand more times: it all comes down to opinion, which is why the vast gulfs in price between grades is utter lunacy. A spine tic is worth $500,000? In some cases...yes. A book that is in BETTER condition worth substantially LESS than another? Yes.

 

But the market won't listen.

[VintageComics]

Good points! (thumbs u

[Artboy99]

This works as a plan B, but in the URL of the website, just hand-key change the last item of the URL. for example, right not it says "...fpart=135". If you replace the 135 with 100, it takes you back to page 100.

 

I dont see what you mean, here is the url info I see:

 

http// boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7576218&Main=335447#Post7576218

[VintageComics]

This works as a plan B, but in the URL of the website, just hand-key change the last item of the URL. for example, right not it says "...fpart=135". If you replace the 135 with 100, it takes you back to page 100.

 

I dont see what you mean, here is the url info I see:

 

http// boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7576218&Main=335447#Post7576218

 

 

You are quoting on posts.

 

Quote on any page of the thread and then the URL has the page number at the end of the URL.

 

Example:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7576227&fpart=67

[Comicopolis]

Man I picked the wrong week to vacation in England. Fascinating reading to say the least.

 

And you didn't visit.

[chrisco37]

This works as a plan B, but in the URL of the website, just hand-key change the last item of the URL. for example, right not it says "...fpart=135". If you replace the 135 with 100, it takes you back to page 100.

 

This. Or just show more posts per page. I only have 27 pages for the entire thread.

 

I have my preferences set pretty high too (page 34 for me).

 

I still think the drop down would be a nice feature. Didn't know about the URL trick. Good to know (but I'll probably forget about it).

[techtre2003]

Only thing I don't like about using a different preference though is that when someone posts a link like VintageComics just did it doesn't work.

[RockMyAmadeus]

You're right, you can't remove humanity (yet), but you are still removing a variable by having a constant grader. Anytime you can remove a variable you are going to get more consistent results.

 

I agree

 

The difference is in how large the variable is, and is it worth their time and effort to

 

a) prevent graders from attending shows (I'm sure that CGC didn't pay for their head graders to fly off to Seattle without good reason)

b) hire and train more graders

c) pay them more

d) have them spend more time grading each separate book

3) charge more per book

 

The flip side of the coin is that you can ask the consumer the question: "Would you be willing to pay more for a better product?" The answer is usually a consistent "No." It's the way of the modern world. We want it all and we want it cheap and we want it now.

 

This can be shown by the outrage when CGC did change there prices a few years ago for the first time in nearly a decade.

 

I personally would pay more for a better service if it meant better service but then I'm usually in the minority.

 

Maybe it's because the prices being charged are *more than* the value that price provides to the average CGC consumer.

 

Example: a single 1976 Marvel comic book worth $100 in the slab costs $35 (before discount) while a single 1980 comic book worth $100 costs $18 (before discount.)

 

There is functionally no difference between that 1976 Marvel and that 1980 Marvel. It takes exactly the same amount of effort and cost to grade...but it's (almost) twice the price.

 

CGC has clearly demonstrated that they *can* grade that book for $18...so why do they charge almost double?

 

This isn't the only example, there are many such inconsistencies in the fee structure.

 

[Artboy99]

This works as a plan B, but in the URL of the website, just hand-key change the last item of the URL. for example, right not it says "...fpart=135". If you replace the 135 with 100, it takes you back to page 100.

 

I dont see what you mean, here is the url info I see:

 

http// boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7576218&Main=335447#Post7576218

 

 

You are quoting on posts.

 

Quote on any page of the thread and then the URL has the page number at the end of the URL.

 

Example:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7576227&fpart=67

 

thank you

[VintageComics]

Only thing I don't like about using a different preference though is that when someone posts a link like VintageComics just did it doesn't work.

 

Just change the page number in your own URL at the to of your browser and then it will work, no?

 

I just posted the link to show everyone page number 67 at the end - not to use my link.

[VintageComics]

You're right, you can't remove humanity (yet), but you are still removing a variable by having a constant grader. Anytime you can remove a variable you are going to get more consistent results.

 

I agree

 

The difference is in how large the variable is, and is it worth their time and effort to

 

a) prevent graders from attending shows (I'm sure that CGC didn't pay for their head graders to fly off to Seattle without good reason)

b) hire and train more graders

c) pay them more

d) have them spend more time grading each separate book

3) charge more per book

 

The flip side of the coin is that you can ask the consumer the question: "Would you be willing to pay more for a better product?" The answer is usually a consistent "No." It's the way of the modern world. We want it all and we want it cheap and we want it now.

 

This can be shown by the outrage when CGC did change there prices a few years ago for the first time in nearly a decade.

 

I personally would pay more for a better service if it meant better service but then I'm usually in the minority.

 

Maybe it's because the prices being charged are *more than* the value that price provides to the average CGC consumer.

 

Example: a single 1976 Marvel comic book worth $100 in the slab costs $35 (before discount) while a single 1980 comic book worth $100 costs $18 (before discount.)

 

There is functionally no difference between that 1976 Marvel and that 1980 Marvel. It takes exactly the same amount of effort and cost to grade...but it's (almost) twice the price.

 

CGC has clearly demonstrated that they *can* grade that book for $18...so why do they charge almost double?

 

This isn't the only example, there are many such inconsistencies in the fee structure.

 

There are many different types of market. I've been saying this for years. There are many types of raw markets and many types of CGC markets and those that are able to diversify across them and arbitrage between them will profit the most.

[shadroch]

[.

 

Maybe it's because the prices being charged are *more than* the value that price provides to the average CGC consumer.

 

Example: a single 1976 Marvel comic book worth $100 in the slab costs $35 (before discount) while a single 1980 comic book worth $100 costs $18 (before discount.)

 

There is functionally no difference between that 1976 Marvel and that 1980 Marvel. It takes exactly the same amount of effort and cost to grade...but it's (almost) twice the price.

 

CGC has clearly demonstrated that they *can* grade that book for $18...so why do they charge almost double?

 

 

 

Because they can.