Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[Comicopolis]

The label changed color; the number on the label did a little two step; the page quality is schizophrenic.

 

No consistency in grade, page quality, or the results of the resto check. Mistakes happen, the graders are human, yadda, yadda, yadda; I get it. The problem is, when you consider these inconsistencies in the context of a market that values one grade increment over another to such a degree that the time, expense and risk involved in resubmitting books is more often than not worthwhile, and thus profitable, it becomes clear that this entire segment of the hobby has jumped the shark.

 

You are taking isolated incidents and extrapolating them like it's common place. It isn't.

 

I made a living fixing Benz's for the last 11 years of that career and yet they are regarded as awesome cars. Why? Because they're perfect? If they were perfect they wouldn't have 10 or 15 dealerships in Southern Ontario to repair them.

 

Isolated incident card played....

So why was the book ever de-slabbed and resubmitted in the first place? What is the reason for doing something like that?

 

Because they didn't believe it to be trimmed.

[ChrisInBaltimore]

that was a long time ago, and as I said to another. Make a thread, and I'll be happy to go back and dig it all up. It involves posts, PMs, a mod, another forum, and a bunch of other people.

 

It has nothing at all to do with what you posted. Which is of course, more untrue things. I did not say what you just tried to imply with those quotes. I never told anyone to meet me anywhere.

 

You're lying.

I've told women to meet me but they never do.

 

Now I hate to act as a Kav historian, but didn't you claim in the Water Cooler that you had turned down model caliber women or some nonsense?

 

I'll hang up and listen…

[THE_BEYONDER]

No matter what you say about CGC they are selling confidence in the condition of a book vs the wild wild west days when you didn't know what you were getting. Everyone would still prefer a slabbed book to a raw book of the same apparent condition. This is what you are paying for, not perfection of results. That is impossible.

 

Nope.

 

Show me the raw book that sells for more than the CGC equivalent. (thumbs u

 

Here is what I bolded and was referring to: Everyone would still prefer a slabbed book to a raw book of the same apparent condition.

 

Nothing was said about price. I said Nope because I personally would rather have the raw book.

So people would pay more for something they want less? And the word 'people' means you?

 

 

Are you seriously not understanding what I am saying?

Well if you can not understand what I am saying it's only fair....

I am saying slabbed books are more desired and the price differential with raw books reflects this. I don't think that's open for debate.

 

In general, yes CGC books are more desired. That's not what you said before. You said EVERYONE would prefer to own CGC books over raw in the same condition. I am saying I would rather own the raw equivalent.

 

At least with raw books, you can ship them without worrying about SCS.

[Dano]

that was a long time ago, and as I said to another. Make a thread, and I'll be happy to go back and dig it all up. It involves posts, PMs, a mod, another forum, and a bunch of other people.

 

It has nothing at all to do with what you posted. Which is of course, more untrue things. I did not say what you just tried to imply with those quotes. I never told anyone to meet me anywhere.

 

You're lying.

I've told women to meet me but they never do.

 

Now I hate to act as a Kav historian, but didn't you claim in the Water Cooler that you had turned down model caliber women or some nonsense?

 

I'll hang up and listen…

 

Don't forget the free lady advice he was offering.

 

Dan

[ComicConnoisseur]

Because it's not a "screw up."

 

It's an opinion, of *this* book, at *this* time, on *this* day.

 

And yes, you're perfectly right: a 9.6 and 9.8 can often be interchangeable.

 

There are books that are definitive 9.6 and 9.8.

 

The problem is that there is no 9.7 grade. I have seen thousands of books that "in my mind" I call a 9.7 and decide if I should give it a 9.6 or 9.8 depending on certain factors, one factor being "Will this book look like a 9.6 or a 9.8 in a holder".

 

You also can't have a 9.1, 9.3, 9.5 or 9.7 grade in the scale, as it would make it even more difficult to be a consistent grader.

 

PQ can change depending on the lighting. I had more trouble with PQ at onsite grading than I did sitting at my grading desk in an office.

 

 

 

hings would have been so much easier if CGC had used one hundred points instead of basing it on ten points. Coins use a seventy point grading system. Why did CGC decide not to go that route.

Because comic books fans are use to certain numbers. Think of issues 1 to 10.

It`s much easier for comic book fans to relate to 1 to 10. It`s probably why they went with the digital increments of 9 route as well. Far easier to get comic book fans to pay more money with a slight bump then a whole bump, hence why the digital 9 increments of 9.0 9.2 9.4 9.6 9.8 9.9.

[divad]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

[timfinz]

The label changed color; the number on the label did a little two step; the page quality is schizophrenic.

 

No consistency in grade, page quality, or the results of the resto check. Mistakes happen, the graders are human, yadda, yadda, yadda; I get it. The problem is, when you consider these inconsistencies in the context of a market that values one grade increment over another to such a degree that the time, expense and risk involved in resubmitting books is more often than not worthwhile, and thus profitable, it becomes clear that this entire segment of the hobby has jumped the shark.

 

You are taking isolated incidents and extrapolating them like it's common place. It isn't.

 

I made a living fixing Benz's for the last 11 years of that career and yet they are regarded as awesome cars. Why? Because they're perfect? If they were perfect they wouldn't have 10 or 15 dealerships in Southern Ontario to repair them.

 

Isolated incident card played....

So why was the book ever de-slabbed and resubmitted in the first place? What is the reason for doing something like that?

 

Because they didn't believe it to be trimmed.

That was the Purple label resubmit.

 

But why go through the bother of cracking open a blue label, not get it signed, not have it pressed, just resubmit it hoping to get a higher grade? You know anywhere else something similar to this would be looked upon as karma?

 

I'm frustrated with the whole notion of people submitting books and expecting, in this case it sounds like 12 different people to come up with the same response/grade? If the book had come back with a higher grade and a blue label do you think we would have the same thread count?

[COI]

Because it's not a "screw up."

 

It's an opinion, of *this* book, at *this* time, on *this* day.

 

And yes, you're perfectly right: a 9.6 and 9.8 can often be interchangeable.

 

There are books that are definitive 9.6 and 9.8.

 

The problem is that there is no 9.7 grade. I have seen thousands of books that "in my mind" I call a 9.7 and decide if I should give it a 9.6 or 9.8 depending on certain factors, one factor being "Will this book look like a 9.6 or a 9.8 in a holder".

 

You also can't have a 9.1, 9.3, 9.5 or 9.7 grade in the scale, as it would make it even more difficult to be a consistent grader.

 

PQ can change depending on the lighting. I had more trouble with PQ at onsite grading than I did sitting at my grading desk in an office.

 

 

 

Luckily there was a 6.5 grade that the JiM # 83 should've maybe ended up at?

 

Not trying to be an arse though, Steve. Just the first thing that popped into my head.

 

Did anyone request grader's notes on the book or has that already been covered?

 

Who wants to pay for something that should be free?

Two words: bottled water.

 

Tap water isn't free.

[CBT]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

[CBT]

 

But why go through the bother of cracking open a blue label, not get it signed, not have it pressed, just resubmit it hoping to get a higher grade? You know anywhere else something similar to this would be looked upon as karma?

 

I'm frustrated with the whole notion of people submitting books and expecting, in this case it sounds like 12 different people to come up with the same response/grade? If the book had come back with a higher grade and a blue label do you think we would have the same thread count?

 

There are lots of very experienced comic people who might look at a book, read the graders notes or lack there of, and disagree with the grade its been assigned.

 

Its not "expecting" something without cause or reason. It can be as simple as feeling the book is misgraded slightly, or graded to harshly.

 

For the amount of money involved on key books, lots of people who have the talents to do so, would make such a decision.

[Flaming_Telepath]

this thread is a debacle.

 

Spider-Dan, next time you have an update, please do let us know, and put it in a new thread.

 

Hopefully, given that most everything has already been covered, that one can stay laser-focused on what has occurred, and what changes/improvements need to happen because of it

I can agree! But one question I would like answered:

WHY? Why would you de-slab a book and then resubmit it?

 

Because CGC are inconsistent and you're hoping for a grade bump...or as in this case, a designation bump.

 

There are a lot of people who play this game. Why? Because CGC are inconsistent.

[timfinz]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

[DrWatson]

Because it's not a "screw up."

 

It's an opinion, of *this* book, at *this* time, on *this* day.

 

And yes, you're perfectly right: a 9.6 and 9.8 can often be interchangeable.

 

There are books that are definitive 9.6 and 9.8.

 

The problem is that there is no 9.7 grade. I have seen thousands of books that "in my mind" I call a 9.7 and decide if I should give it a 9.6 or 9.8 depending on certain factors, one factor being "Will this book look like a 9.6 or a 9.8 in a holder".

 

You also can't have a 9.1, 9.3, 9.5 or 9.7 grade in the scale, as it would make it even more difficult to be a consistent grader.

 

PQ can change depending on the lighting. I had more trouble with PQ at onsite grading than I did sitting at my grading desk in an office.

 

 

 

Luckily there was a 6.5 grade that the JiM # 83 should've maybe ended up at?

 

Not trying to be an arse though, Steve. Just the first thing that popped into my head.

 

Did anyone request grader's notes on the book or has that already been covered?

 

Who wants to pay for something that should be free?

Two words: bottled water.

 

Tap water isn't free.

Were I live we have wells. So, we drink our water only once.

[CBT]

thread back on track, hopefully we keep this rolling!

[CBT]

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

whether a book is trimmed or not is not subjective, its objective. Only one answer is the right answer. Given what has happened, I'll only believe a VERY authoritative resto expert who doesnt work for CGC reviewing it to decide.

 

That;s not going to happen.

 

As for grade bumps, grading IS subjective, and cannot be exact. Having public grading standards, HIGHLY detailed grading notes (available) on every single book, a proper process to handle disputes for obvious mis-grades (say 1.0 or more mis-grade, as judged by some sort of dispute pre-screen, with a person only having to pay if it is in fact mis-graded), AND paying enough in salaries to hire enough qualified people to DO all that.

 

is the solution.

 

also not going to happen. Unless some day (say over the next few years) proper competition forces it upon them.

[ChrisInBaltimore]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

Yea we do. I had a 9.6 modern book get cracked and signed. It came back a 9.8 and made me super happy.

 

We hear about books that go down a lot too.

[Spider-Dan]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

When I originally cracked the 6.0 Blue - I thought it was at least a 6.5. As it turns out it got a 7.0.

 

I don't know what happened to the book after I sold it in the Purple slab. Perhaps it got a little damaged when the new owner took it out of the slab, maybe a dinged corner in shipment to Florida

 

Except for that crease, it was a beautiful book. The person I bought it from is SUPER pickey about his books, so that just confirmed my opinion

[Flaming_Telepath]

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

Yes we do.

 

In fact, the OP's 'business model' revolves entirely around doing exactly that.

 

And that's in no way a judgement.

[timfinz]

this thread is a debacle.

 

Spider-Dan, next time you have an update, please do let us know, and put it in a new thread.

 

Hopefully, given that most everything has already been covered, that one can stay laser-focused on what has occurred, and what changes/improvements need to happen because of it

I can agree! But one question I would like answered:

WHY? Why would you de-slab a book and then resubmit it?

 

Because CGC are inconsistent and you're hoping for a grade bump...or as in this case, a designation bump.

 

There are a lot of people who play this game. Why? Because CGC are inconsistent.

You can't call CGC inconsistent for an error in judgement. I am a professional in my line of work but I too make mistakes, that doesn't make me inconsistent.

 

Not every book that comes off a press is the same, nor is every person's impression of a books grade. If everyone had the same opinion of everything what a very strange world this would be. But I guess the fact that my opinion of this "error in judgement" differs from yours is proof positive that would never happen.

[CBT]

whether a book is trimmed or not is not subjective, its objective. Only one answer is the right answer. Given what has happened, I'll only believe a VERY authoritative resto expert who doesnt work for CGC reviewing it to decide.

 

That;s not going to happen.

 

As for grade bumps, grading IS subjective, and cannot be exact. Having public grading standards, HIGHLY detailed grading notes (available) on every single book, a proper process to handle disputes for obvious mis-grades (say 1.0 or more mis-grade, as judged by some sort of dispute pre-screen, with a person only having to pay if it is in fact mis-graded), AND paying enough in salaries to hire enough qualified people to DO all that.

 

is the solution.

 

also not going to happen. Unless some day (say over the next few years) proper competition forces it upon them.

 

 

on that perfect post, I'm outta this thread till morning. Gotta be productive.

Trolls keep trolling

Posters keep posting

 

 

Edited April 3, 2014 by CBT