Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[THE_BEYONDER]

Maybe they should admit they can't detect well done trimming and start offering a trimming service....

 

Paging Ewert.....

[NewWorldOrder]

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

I'm curious how long some posters think CGC graders spend on a book. 12 seconds? 20?

Some of the posts seem like they imagine Graders do extensive CSI type investigative exams.

 

This goes back to my statement that CGC needs more professional graders. To properly examine and grade GA and SA books takes too much time at the prices they charge. If they raise prices and then hire more graders and give them more time to grade each book, scams like this will diminish.

 

Now, what new pricing structure can the market bear? I know I would pay 50% more.

 

If it appears I'm campaigning for higher prices - I'm not. I'm campaigning for better results.

 

Once again the people that you desire all make too much money selling back issues already.

 

CGC could offer 100K base salaries to some people and they would still get rejected.

 

Many of the best graders in the world would never want to give up selling comic books to grade your books for peanuts compared to the money they can get hustling comic books on the side.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2014 by Spiderman-on-Tilt

[MatterEaterLad]

And by the vigorous defenders of CGCs grading who see this as an isolated, one-in-a-million-what's-the-big-deal kind of thing...it's obvious there are dealers who don't want change. They profit from playing the resub game.

For them, CGC is purr-fect-o.

 

Most people buy the number (eBay), while they buy the book, resub, and voila, the number changes.

 

 

Nobody said it's a one-in-a-million-what's-the-big-deal kind of thing.

 

It is isolated, relatively speaking. It's in the minority. Nobody has produced concrete numbers but there is no reason to believe it's commonplace. From my own experiences I've placed it at less than 1-2%.

 

And LordRahl as correct, everybody benefits from CGC. Not just dealers.

 

Making this incident look like the sky is falling (because some "people in tight with CGC" said that CGC are not perfect) is a gross misrepresentation of what is actually happening because it removes the perspective that CGC has over all done more for detecting restoration and setting some sort of a grading standard than any other single entity.

 

How can I say that?

 

Because even when Overstreet guidelines were in print:

 

a) anybody buying books on eBay pre CGC or buying books leading up to CGC at shows, mail order, etc knows full well how often what you got in the mail was a crapshoot. You'd be lucky to get the correct issue number or title sometimes, let alone grade, resto, etc.

 

b) you picked up that large collection from HE a while back if I'm not mistaken and I assume the majority came back with Blue labels. Imagine picking up the collection and not knowing if the books were restored or not and finding out 20 years later?

 

c) for every improperly graded CGC book, we can't calculate how many times CGC has saved a buyer's bacon because the majority of books that are accurately graded and resto checked is unaccounted for. Rest assured it's a large percentage of anyone's graded collection (well more than 85% in my opinion )

 

That statement is funny to me as IMO most of the people playing that game aren't dealers. They're the average Joe collector like Dan (the OP). I know anti-CGC people keep harping about how dealers profit so much from CGC etc and miss the fact that it's really the average guy that profits the most from CGC.

 

Just imagine out of 3 Million comics graded how many would be sitting with unknown resto and unknown grades in people's collections.

 

I'm not anti CGC. I own a ridiculous amount of slabs (900? I've lost count).

 

But before I send them more books I need a better answer than the one we've been given. Because flip-flopping four times on one book is enough to keep me away. Not sending my books in to Vault or PGX. Not sending them anywhere.

 

At this moment, the concept of resto check is a joke.

 

 

[VintageComics]

So when the only reason I am going to use your service is shown to have flaws like we've seen here it really doesn't instill a lot of confidence.

 

When you are have a 98% chance that a book is restored or a 98% chance a book is not restored, which one instills more confidence?

 

If those were true proven numbers I'd say you got me. But you and I both know they aren't.

 

I'm maintaining thata those numbers are fairly accurate based on my 10 years of submitting books to CGC.

 

 

Your numbers make no sense. How can you prove one way or the other that a book is ACTUALLY trimmed?

 

Your arguments are ridiculously anti establishment.

 

The choices are not

 

a) indifference

b) stop using CGC

 

The choices are

 

a) use CGC

b) don't use CGC

 

And the my examples are slightly different than your examples, whether you want to admit it or not.

 

-----------------------------

 

2nd, nearly every major international dealer on the continent misses resto but when they do it's CGC that is generally going to catch it.

 

If CGC is going to miss resto or micro trimming than I think it is a safe argument to make that almost everyone else will too.

 

I'd certainly rather have a world where a company that is set up for and designed for catching the majority of resto (somewhere approaching 100%) than in a world where I am relying on the word of someone who doesn't specialize in catching resto.

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

At this moment, the concept of resto check is a joke.

 

 

I didn't say you were anti CGC and I know your story of acquiring that collection well.

 

My question is, why is the concept of resto check a joke when we are talking about a few specific incidents among 3 Million books?

[kav]

No company is 100% on anything.

I got a McDonald's burger-no pickles.

[MetalPSI]

At this moment, the concept of resto check is a joke.

 

 

I didn't say you were anti CGC and I know your story of acquiring that collection well.

 

My question is, why is the concept of resto check a joke when we are talking about a few specific incidents among 3 Million books?

 

3 million? Really?

 

[VintageComics]

HG Silver & Gold will NEVER reach the same hammer prices raw that they have with CGC.

 

 

 

When the first Action #1 sold for $6000 people said it was impossible.

When the first AF #15 sold for $50,000 people said it was impossible.

This was all pre CGC.

 

This is a tangent discussion and you have no way of proving that point.

 

To stay on topic though, if CGC was not around another certification / authentication party would be doing it because it's too big of a vacuum not to have it.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Your arguments are ridiculously anti establishment.

 

 

 

[kav]

[VintageComics]

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?

 

I'm not entirely sure what CGC has to do with it.

 

Let's say CGC went belly up tomorrow. Then what? High grade Silver and Gold will still sell for thousands of dollars, tens of thousands even. Do you think people will stop micro-trimming because CGC folded? If anything they will do it more.

 

This thread pertains to CGC

 

HG Silver & Gold will NEVER reach the same hammer prices raw that they have with CGC.

 

The same? No. But that doesn't mean they won't sell for a lot of money. You seem to be equating micro-trimming with something that happens because of CGC. Micro-trimming will still happen if CGC folds tomorrow. Just because an FF 1 in NM "only" sells for $25K instead of $125K does not mean there will be no financial incentive to monkey with it.

 

I'm not sure that we disagree.

 

I'm trying to understand why consumers would continue to submit their books to CGC if CGC can't consistently detect trimming.

 

If CGC = raw in regard to micro-trimming, then wouldn't consumers rather pay 25K for a NM FF 1 than 125K?

 

Because even if they can't detect it all the time, they can detect it a lot more consistently than 99.9% of the collecting community.

 

99.9%?

 

C'mon now. Please don't just make mess up.

 

I'm really not making up that number. How many people in this hobby do you think can reliably tell if a book was micro-trimmed? Honest question. Give me your opinion.

 

First I'd have to know how many people are in this hobby.....

 

No you don't need to know how many people there are in this hobby to guess what percentage can't detect resto.

 

All you need to do is agree with the reality that most average collectors suck at detecting resto and especially trimming unless they've spent a lot of time studying it.

 

Just read how many "is this trimmed" threads there are on this forum, sometimes started by board members who have spent many years here where trimming is often explained and discussed in detail.

 

Major, experienced dealers miss it all the time.

 

 

[VintageComics]

Your arguments are ridiculously anti establishment.

 

 

 

You're a rebel. Like me.

[THE_BEYONDER]

HG Silver & Gold will NEVER reach the same hammer prices raw that they have with CGC.

 

 

 

When the first Action #1 sold for $6000 people said it was impossible.

When the first AF #15 sold for $50,000 people said it was impossible.

This was all pre CGC.

 

This is a tangent discussion and you have no way of proving that point.

 

To stay on topic though, if CGC was not around another certification / authentication party would be doing it because it's too big of a vacuum not to have it.

 

Everything in your above post is

 

Read the sentence you quoted.

 

Read your response.

 

Read them both again.

 

Explain how your comments relate AT ALL to what you just quoted.

[VintageComics]

You also have to think of all the comics CGC has helped save by being established. People are less likely to restore a comic these days and are satisfied with a lower grade book if all original. How would you like 50-75 percent of comics to be restored today or atleast 25 percent if CGC didnt exist.

 

I'm not suggesting CGC hasn't done good things for the hobby, I'm merely suggesting that their detection efforts are lacking.

 

Everyone's detection efforts are lacking when compared to a perfect, 100% average.

 

The question is how does CGC stack up to everyone that is not CGC?

 

[MatterEaterLad]

At this moment, the concept of resto check is a joke.

 

 

I didn't say you were anti CGC and I know your story of acquiring that collection well.

 

My question is, why is the concept of resto check a joke when we are talking about a few specific incidents among 3 Million books?

 

Because we don't really know if it's an isolated incident.

 

I'd be less concerned if it were four different books that they missed (human error) than one book four times (lack of competence).

 

 

[kav]

WE have no idea how many trimmed books are in blue label or untrimmed in purple. We also have no idea how many scammers have sold re sealed slabs with zombie cap/nomad books.

[THE_BEYONDER]

You also have to think of all the comics CGC has helped save by being established. People are less likely to restore a comic these days and are satisfied with a lower grade book if all original. How would you like 50-75 percent of comics to be restored today or atleast 25 percent if CGC didnt exist.

 

I'm not suggesting CGC hasn't done good things for the hobby, I'm merely suggesting that their detection efforts are lacking.

 

Everyone's detection efforts are lacking when compared to a perfect, 100% average.

 

The question is how does CGC stack up to everyone that is not CGC?

 

Who knows? Since 99.9% of collectors can't detect trimming.....it's possible CGC misses 99.9% of the micro-trimming. How could we ever know for sure?

[Artboy99]

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?

 

I'm not entirely sure what CGC has to do with it.

 

Let's say CGC went belly up tomorrow. Then what? High grade Silver and Gold will still sell for thousands of dollars, tens of thousands even. Do you think people will stop micro-trimming because CGC folded? If anything they will do it more.

 

This thread pertains to CGC

 

HG Silver & Gold will NEVER reach the same hammer prices raw that they have with CGC.

 

The same? No. But that doesn't mean they won't sell for a lot of money. You seem to be equating micro-trimming with something that happens because of CGC. Micro-trimming will still happen if CGC folds tomorrow. Just because an FF 1 in NM "only" sells for $25K instead of $125K does not mean there will be no financial incentive to monkey with it.

 

I'm not sure that we disagree.

 

I'm trying to understand why consumers would continue to submit their books to CGC if CGC can't consistently detect trimming.

 

If CGC = raw in regard to micro-trimming, then wouldn't consumers rather pay 25K for a NM FF 1 than 125K?

 

Because even if they can't detect it all the time, they can detect it a lot more consistently than 99.9% of the collecting community.

 

99.9%?

 

C'mon now. Please don't just make mess up.

 

I'm really not making up that number. How many people in this hobby do you think can reliably tell if a book was micro-trimmed? Honest question. Give me your opinion.

 

First I'd have to know how many people are in this hobby.....

 

No you don't need to know how many people there are in this hobby to guess what percentage can't detect resto.

 

All you need to do is agree with the reality that most average collectors suck at detecting resto and especially trimming unless they've spent a lot of time studying it.

 

Just read how many "is this trimmed" threads there are on this forum, sometimes started by board members who have spent many years here where trimming is often explained and discussed in detail.

 

Major, experienced dealers miss it all the time.

 

 

I ran several trimming experiments on some junky silver and bronze age books I had. Trimming with a few different tools/techniques, after trimming using a few different types of lighting. etc.

I consider myself having studied trimming somewhat, and I admit to not being able to detect trimming in many cases.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

WE have no idea how many trimmed books are in blue label

 

[VintageComics]

HG Silver & Gold will NEVER reach the same hammer prices raw that they have with CGC.

 

 

 

When the first Action #1 sold for $6000 people said it was impossible.

When the first AF #15 sold for $50,000 people said it was impossible.

This was all pre CGC.

 

This is a tangent discussion and you have no way of proving that point.

 

To stay on topic though, if CGC was not around another certification / authentication party would be doing it because it's too big of a vacuum not to have it.

 

Everything in your above post is

 

Read the sentence you quoted.

 

Read your response.

 

Read them both again.

 

Explain how your comments relate AT ALL to what you just quoted.

 

Every few years someone would say that prices have tapped out and then a new record would be set.

 

First it was a $1K barrier, then a $10K barrier then a $100K barrier, etc. all without CGC.

 

Now you are (for whatever reason) arguing that these prices would never have hit the same heights without CGC.

 

We have no way of knowing but there already has been precedent of record prices increasing from the 1950's onward both before and after CGC. So we have no way of knowing for sure.

 

I could argue that these record prices were reached because of movie and media exposure and it would just be a hypothetical discussion because I have no way of proving it.