CGC Response on Suspected Ewert Books

[Transplant]

I'm ignoring you.

[lou_fine]

 

Let's hope this current scenario works out better than the one conjured up by Ewert, since it's always sad to read sob stories from cry babies who lost big money at playing the high risk game of chasing after uber HG, but otherwise, common as dirt books.

 

Dean,

Just because some collectors like HG books (who DOESN'T want the best possible copy they can attain?), doesn't give you the right to knock their collecting habits!

Though I am not an "uber" HG book chaser, I DO go after the best book I can possibly afford of that particular issue...

According to your post, if I try to AND win a HG book in an auction, get ripped off due to undisclosed resto/trimming, or anything undetected by CGC and state my case on the Boards, then I'm just a cry baby spouting a sob story? WTF???

If that's your mindset then you and I will happily take a strike for that!

Have a nice day and may Greggy haunt your dreams!

 

Panther;

 

I had to go back and reread my post to see if you was actually responding to me!

 

At no point in my post did I say or even imply that my collecting habits are good while your collecting habits are bad, or vice versa. As I have ALWAYS stated on these boards here, everybody has different collecting interests and collect in their own unique way. It's not up to you or me to say who is right or wrong, as it is really "to each their own".

 

As Tim has already noted in a later post, I am normally a HG collector. I actually like your phrasing very much as I also go after the best condition book I can afford for a particular book I am after, depending upon availability. I hope you don't have a copyright on this phrase.

 

With respect to being a cry baby and spouting sob stories, I certainly did not mean it in the way that you seem to be taking it. If a collector gets intentionally ripped off by somebody, then I fully support them coming onto the boards here to "out" the individual. This helps to prevent other fellow collectors from being ripped off.

 

It seems that Tim understood what I was talking about with respect to risks inherent in the type of books that an individual choses to collect. For an extreme example, if you choose to spend over $10K for a Hero For Hire #1 or almost $10K for only a 9.6 copy of Thor #126, you should be aware of the various risks that you are exposing yourself to and always take them into account when purchasing a book.

 

And believe me, there are a lot of different types of risks when you are talking about 5 figures for a book, when the price being paid really has virtually nothing to do with the underlying book itself, and really everything to do about the number on the label. So, all I am really saying is don't come back and complain when one of these risks comes back and takes a bite out of your investment dollars.

 

In your specific example, you seem to be referring to the Ewert books. Well, if you remember back to 2003, virtually everybody on the boards here were absolutely red hot in love with Jason and his uber HG books at the time. A few members, including myself, expressed some caution and doubts with respect to how he was able to almost at will pull uber HG books out from long boxes at conventions using nothing but his eagle-sharp eyes when nobody else could do this. Especially when Jason didn't bother to respond to my questions on his eBay listings about possible work being done on the books.

 

Not surprisingly, I was called a lot of nasty names similar to right now, as everybody was just in an absolutely steamy love affair with Jason and his books. Needless to say, we all know the sad and unfortuante end of this story. The important thing to note is that the warning signs were already all there. You just had to use a little common sense, ask some questions, or read some of the dissenting views on the boards here.

 

If buyers choose to ignore the warning signs or fail to conduct due diligence and lose out, they should also take some of the responsibilities for their own actions. Once again, it is not realistice to expect CGC to catch everything. Even they admit this as their label cearly states they will make a good faith effort, but do not actually warranty their restoration check.

 

I am actually impressed with CGC and Brulato for making the reimbursement on books that were subsequently found to be trimmed as this is certainly over and above what they were legally required to do. Of course, the entire communications things left a lot to be desired as communications has never been one of CGC's strong points. The relationship with Brulato is a little worrisome too, especially if he knew what was going on. Not as worrisome, but still of some concern if he didn't know what was going on, as this basically means the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing, considering that VIA had been in operations for quite awhile.

 

What I found really surprising is that none of the collectors or victims went after Ewert himself as the lawyers involved couldn't find anybody that was willing to participate in the case. This is what I meant when I used the term "cry babies"......ignore the risks or warning signs, complain when they lose, expect somebody else to reimburse or bail them out, and doesn't bother to pursue the real perpetrators of the crime when presented with the opportunity. If it was me, I would be chasing after Jason like there was no tomorrow. Ask me about Danny boy someday!

 

As for your last point, nobody deserves a strike here and I am not sure about your comment on Greggy haunting my dreams. I've never had any personal dealings with Greggy and I have only talked to him very briefly at a couple of cons. Not exactly sure what his problem with me is and I really should ask him the next time I see him since he seems to be a pretty nice guy otherwise. I don't have anything personal against him and all I really know is that he likes to collect CD 100 pagers and he also likes to wear short shorts (at least according to you guys).

 

 

[lou_fine]

After all, if something sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.

 

Sounds good. I'll just assume that what is on the label is NOT what the product is. Might as well go back to buying raw...

 

Sterling;

 

As I have already stated in my above post post to Panther:

 

It is not realistic to expect CGC to catch all things all of the time when it comes to restoration detection. The back of their CGC label clearly states this as they will only only make a good faith effort to detect restoration. They will not warrant this process or the results of this check.

 

And as another wise man said in another thread:

 

Buyers should do the appropriate research before buying.

 

BTW: I love your avatar! (thumbs u

[lou_fine]

Dean definitely KNOWS what he is saying, since he seems to have an essay with everything he posts. Anyone who takes the time to type a three paragraph response obviously is pre meditated and calculated with the message he conveys... He stated it, he meant it - so let him reap the rebuttals :shrug:

 

Panther;

 

I plead guilty to the fact that I often tend to overwrite my posts and I am also extremely slow when it comes to writing.

 

It's a bad habit that I got into and as Tim has correctly stated, often leads to some misinterpretation of what I am really trying to say. Perfect example is my just completed earlier response to your post from yesterday that took me almost 2 hours to complete with all the interuptions (how embarassing!).

 

I really must learn to be more concise and direct to the point, but I always end up trying to answer every little point without leaving anything out. Not necessarily a good thing all the time.

[lou_fine]

 

Let's hope this current scenario works out better than the one conjured up by Ewert, since it's always sad to read sob stories from cry babies who lost big money at playing the high risk game of chasing after uber HG, but otherwise, common as dirt books.

Dean,

I don't know you, but I have to say from the last 10 or so posts you contributed to this thread that you are nothing but a blowhard azzhole.

Just because some collectors like HG books (who DOESN'T want the best possible copy they can attain?), doesn't give you the right to knock their collecting habits!

Though I am not an "uber" HG book chaser, I DO go after the best book I can possibly afford of that particular issue...

According to your post, if I try to AND win a HG book in an auction, get ripped off due to undisclosed resto/trimming, or anything undetected by CGC and state my case on the Boards, then I'm just a cry baby spouting a sob story? WTF???

If that's your mindset then you and I will happily take a strike for that!

Have a nice day and may Greggy haunt your dreams!

 

Dean DOES collect HG books. I think his point was about collectors who chased ultra-HG copies of common books and paid huge prices for the first 9.8 certified copy, and then cried when prices plunged after a ton of additional copies got certified 9.8, either because the book was genuinely common or because a bunch of books got pressed and reslabbed into 9.8s.

 

Tim;

 

You are just too good at figuring out what I am trying to say sometimes! (thumbs u

 

I've got to take some writing courses and learn how to write clearly and consisely like a lawyer.

[lou_fine]

Sorry Sterling

but I want Dean to see this

 

 

np. I'm just being ignored anyway. :thumbsup:

 

Sterling;

 

Sorry, didn't mean to ignore you.

 

It's just that I don't spend as much time here as most of you guys probably do. Must buy my own computer one day as I am usually only here once a day or once every few days in the late evenings.

 

Hopefully, I've answer everybody's concerns here as I am off to bed for the night.

 

Honestly, I am not ignoring anybody. (thumbs u

[tth2]

 

Let's hope this current scenario works out better than the one conjured up by Ewert, since it's always sad to read sob stories from cry babies who lost big money at playing the high risk game of chasing after uber HG, but otherwise, common as dirt books.

Dean,

I don't know you, but I have to say from the last 10 or so posts you contributed to this thread that you are nothing but a blowhard azzhole.

Just because some collectors like HG books (who DOESN'T want the best possible copy they can attain?), doesn't give you the right to knock their collecting habits!

Though I am not an "uber" HG book chaser, I DO go after the best book I can possibly afford of that particular issue...

According to your post, if I try to AND win a HG book in an auction, get ripped off due to undisclosed resto/trimming, or anything undetected by CGC and state my case on the Boards, then I'm just a cry baby spouting a sob story? WTF???

If that's your mindset then you and I will happily take a strike for that!

Have a nice day and may Greggy haunt your dreams!

 

Dean DOES collect HG books. I think his point was about collectors who chased ultra-HG copies of common books and paid huge prices for the first 9.8 certified copy, and then cried when prices plunged after a ton of additional copies got certified 9.8, either because the book was genuinely common or because a bunch of books got pressed and reslabbed into 9.8s.

 

Tim;

 

You are just too good at figuring out what I am trying to say sometimes! (thumbs u

 

I've got to take some writing courses and learn how to write clearly and consisely like a lawyer.

Well, maybe best that you just stop talking in this thread altogether, so I don't have to keep trying to defend you.

[djpinkpanther67]

 

Let's hope this current scenario works out better than the one conjured up by Ewert, since it's always sad to read sob stories from cry babies who lost big money at playing the high risk game of chasing after uber HG, but otherwise, common as dirt books.

 

Dean,

Just because some collectors like HG books (who DOESN'T want the best possible copy they can attain?), doesn't give you the right to knock their collecting habits!

Though I am not an "uber" HG book chaser, I DO go after the best book I can possibly afford of that particular issue...

According to your post, if I try to AND win a HG book in an auction, get ripped off due to undisclosed resto/trimming, or anything undetected by CGC and state my case on the Boards, then I'm just a cry baby spouting a sob story? WTF???

If that's your mindset then you and I will happily take a strike for that!

Have a nice day and may Greggy haunt your dreams!

 

Panther;

 

I had to go back and reread my post to see if you was actually responding to me!

 

At no point in my post did I say or even imply that my collecting habits are good while your collecting habits are bad, or vice versa. As I have ALWAYS stated on these boards here, everybody has different collecting interests and collect in their own unique way. It's not up to you or me to say who is right or wrong, as it is really "to each their own".

 

As Tim has already noted in a later post, I am normally a HG collector. I actually like your phrasing very much as I also go after the best condition book I can afford for a particular book I am after, depending upon availability. I hope you don't have a copyright on this phrase.

 

With respect to being a cry baby and spouting sob stories, I certainly did not mean it in the way that you seem to be taking it. If a collector gets intentionally ripped off by somebody, then I fully support them coming onto the boards here to "out" the individual. This helps to prevent other fellow collectors from being ripped off.

 

It seems that Tim understood what I was talking about with respect to risks inherent in the type of books that an individual choses to collect. For an extreme example, if you choose to spend over $10K for a Hero For Hire #1 or almost $10K for only a 9.6 copy of Thor #126, you should be aware of the various risks that you are exposing yourself to and always take them into account when purchasing a book.

 

And believe me, there are a lot of different types of risks when you are talking about 5 figures for a book, when the price being paid really has virtually nothing to do with the underlying book itself, and really everything to do about the number on the label. So, all I am really saying is don't come back and complain when one of these risks comes back and takes a bite out of your investment dollars.

 

In your specific example, you seem to be referring to the Ewert books. Well, if you remember back to 2003, virtually everybody on the boards here were absolutely red hot in love with Jason and his uber HG books at the time. A few members, including myself, expressed some caution and doubts with respect to how he was able to almost at will pull uber HG books out from long boxes at conventions using nothing but his eagle-sharp eyes when nobody else could do this. Especially when Jason didn't bother to respond to my questions on his eBay listings about possible work being done on the books.

 

Not surprisingly, I was called a lot of nasty names similar to right now, as everybody was just in an absolutely steamy love affair with Jason and his books. Needless to say, we all know the sad and unfortuante end of this story. The important thing to note is that the warning signs were already all there. You just had to use a little common sense, ask some questions, or read some of the dissenting views on the boards here.

 

If buyers choose to ignore the warning signs or fail to conduct due diligence and lose out, they should also take some of the responsibilities for their own actions. Once again, it is not realistice to expect CGC to catch everything. Even they admit this as their label cearly states they will make a good faith effort, but do not actually warranty their restoration check.

 

I am actually impressed with CGC and Brulato for making the reimbursement on books that were subsequently found to be trimmed as this is certainly over and above what they were legally required to do. Of course, the entire communications things left a lot to be desired as communications has never been one of CGC's strong points. The relationship with Brulato is a little worrisome too, especially if he knew what was going on. Not as worrisome, but still of some concern if he didn't know what was going on, as this basically means the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing, considering that VIA had been in operations for quite awhile.

 

What I found really surprising is that none of the collectors or victims went after Ewert himself as the lawyers involved couldn't find anybody that was willing to participate in the case. This is what I meant when I used the term "cry babies"......ignore the risks or warning signs, complain when they lose, expect somebody else to reimburse or bail them out, and doesn't bother to pursue the real perpetrators of the crime when presented with the opportunity. If it was me, I would be chasing after Jason like there was no tomorrow. Ask me about Danny boy someday!

 

As for your last point, nobody deserves a strike here and I am not sure about your comment on Greggy haunting my dreams. I've never had any personal dealings with Greggy and I have only talked to him very briefly at a couple of cons. Not exactly sure what his problem with me is and I really should ask him the next time I see him since he seems to be a pretty nice guy otherwise. I don't have anything personal against him and all I really know is that he likes to collect CD 100 pagers and he also likes to wear short shorts (at least according to you guys).

 

Dean,

I misunderstood your original message, and Tim actually clarified things with his post. In my defense, your diatribes tend to be long and when a certain phrase commands my attention, I tend to take it out of context of what is trying to be conveyed. I ignore the surrounding content and focus on the (perceived) offending phrase itself...

I agree that people paying insane amounts of money for "rare" 9.6 SA book is a bit eccentric to say the least. They even may be "HG chasers", so to speak, but regardless what amount of money they spend on a book, whether it's $100 or $10K. Getting cheated is getting cheated. Point blank. I would never call anyone a cry baby or the fact they got ripped off a sob story...If they have the $$ to get the highest graded copy then more power to them. Their collecting habits don't affect mine. Would I try to get a 9.6 copy rather than 9.4 copy of a book? Of course, if it's within my means, that being the deciding factor of course. I am more than happy with a nicely presenting 9.2 or 9.4 book as well

My main point is this: Regardless if they are taking a risk or not, wrong is wrong. I fully agree with arming your self with knowledge and research before you make a big purchase, but on the other hand, some people who HAVE knowledge and DID research, STILL got swindled. And THAT is my point. I would NEVER imply anyone is a crybaby when it comes to being burned on a purchase. Whether your statement was in jest, or targeted at a specific group of collectors, it could still be interpreted as inflammatory in nature, hence not just my response, but other people's as well.

BTW the greggy statement was supposed to be followed with a

as it was a joke...

[lou_fine]

Dean,

I misunderstood your original message, and Tim actually clarified things with his post. In my defense, your diatribes tend to be long and when a certain phrase commands my attention, I tend to take it out of context of what is trying to be conveyed. I ignore the surrounding content and focus on the (perceived) offending phrase itself...

 

Panther;

 

Not a problem at all as it's always good to see different points of views on the boards here. (thumbs u

 

I just have to learn to make mine's more clearer so there is less confusion with what I am trying to say sometimes.

[lou_fine]

Tim;

 

You are just too good at figuring out what I am trying to say sometimes! (thumbs u

 

I've got to take some writing courses and learn how to write clearly and consisely like a lawyer.

 

Well, maybe best that you just stop talking in this thread altogether, so I don't have to keep trying to defend you.

 

Tim;

 

Actually, all of my posts here on this thread was really made just for your benefit.

 

I was just trying to broaden your horizons and give you some practice at being a defence attorney just in case you ever get tired of being a corporate securities lawyer or whatever you do in that nice fancy office of yours.

 

Thanks again, my friend! (thumbs u

[sterlingcomics]

Heads up and reminder:

 

There appears to be some CGC books on the next Pedigree Grand Comic Auction that have not been reviewed yet...

 

Reminder: My no frills utility is available at: http://ftp.datazap.net/ftp/sterlingcomics/cgccheck.htm

 

 

[sterlingcomics]

It is not realistic to expect CGC to catch all things all of the time when it comes to restoration detection. The back of their CGC label clearly states this as they will only only make a good faith effort to detect restoration. They will not warrant this process or the results of this check.

 

I agree...I don't think anyone has expected CGC to be infallible...but if they know a situation such as this they should, for the safety of the consumer, communicate it better than a sticky thread at the top of a forum.

 

I remember a bunch of folks willing to chip in and help CGC do this...CGC could also do small things such as sending a reminder to those in the registry set, send out a letter to all CS members, etc.

 

Listen, I'm no insufficiently_thoughtful_person. I understand the costs involved. Heck, there could be a fund set up to help CGC ofset some of this. The bottom line (for CGC) is the bottom line...I'd prefer a bit more information to help the consumer here.

 

As a result of this current FUZZY LOGIC I am on PERMANENT notice on buying ANY CGC book. It's not the way I prefer to enjoy my hobby. I guess that's the grim reality of the situation.

[Mr. Zipper]

I understand the costs involved. Heck, there could be a fund set up to help CGC ofset some of this. The bottom line (for CGC) is the bottom line...I'd prefer a bit more information to help the consumer here.

 

You'd think they would have an errors & omissions policy to cover situations like this.

[sterlingcomics]

Heads up and reminder:

 

There appears to be some CGC books on the next Pedigree Grand Comic Auction that have not been reviewed yet...

 

Reminder: My no frills utility is available at: http://ftp.datazap.net/ftp/sterlingcomics/cgccheck.htm

 

 

I referred to the wrong site.

[Transplant]

Great points raised by some folks here. But they are not the point of this thread.

 

CGC has notified the community that they suspect someone who submitted books to them did so after trimming the books. They've acknowledged that some of the books trimmed and submitted received blue labels.

 

The point of this thread was to point out in the insufficiency and of CGC's response so far. Questions remain as to:

1) Why does CGC refuse to release a list of books that it believes are suspect (by virtue of being submitted by this person)?

2) Why does CGC not "proactively" contact registry set owners of the suspected books?

3) Why did CGC limits its offer of reviewing books to the time period noted?

4) Do they have any reason to believe that this person did not a) submit books through other people or b) that books sold by this person are not also suspect of having been trimmed?

 

This is not a thread to discuss whether CGC can detect all resto work or whether there is a better alternative or whether more education is needed for collectors. Discussing it here is OT and contributes to the idea that CGC can just ignore the reasonable questions posed to them.

[Foolkiller]

I had dinner with Mark Haspel on Wednesday night, I discussed these issues:

 

1) Why does CGC refuse to release a list of books that it believes are suspect (by virtue of being submitted by this person)?

 

legal liability. They are contractually bound not to release this information from the submitter and legal action can be instituted. Even though banned, there is no conviction or any legal determination or even actual concrete evidence that Ewert trimmed the books himself. Therefore, they are still bound to protect the confidentiality.

 

2) Why does CGC not "proactively" contact registry set owners of the suspected books?

 

See answer above. Their job is to review any books to check for safety. Using information they hold is a potential violation of privacy.

 

3) Why did CGC limits its offer of reviewing books to the time period noted?

 

This is the time period that CGC has always identified as the period when they believed Ewert began submitting books that may have been trimmed.

 

4) Do they have any reason to believe that this person did not a) submit books through other people or b) that books sold by this person are not also suspect of having been trimmed?

 

a) They have no evidence to demonstrate that Ewert books were submitted (during that time period) by any one else. Absolutely zero. To their knowledge, nobody is currently submitting books for Ewert either.

 

b) There is no evidence, even tangential, to demonstrate that someone else is selling Ewert books. CGC would have to be going proactively after all frauds and that is not the service they provide.

 

[kc120us]

I had dinner with Mark Haspel on Wednesday night, I discussed these issues:

 

1) Why does CGC refuse to release a list of books that it believes are suspect (by virtue of being submitted by this person)?

 

legal liability. They are contractually bound not to release this information from the submitter and legal action can be instituted. Even though banned, there is no conviction or any legal determination or even actual concrete evidence that Ewert trimmed the books himself. Therefore, they are still bound to protect the confidentiality.

 

2) Why does CGC not "proactively" contact registry set owners of the suspected books?

 

See answer above. Their job is to review any books to check for safety. Using information they hold is a potential violation of privacy.

 

3) Why did CGC limits its offer of reviewing books to the time period noted?

 

This is the time period that CGC has always identified as the period when they believed Ewert began submitting books that may have been trimmed.

 

4) Do they have any reason to believe that this person did not a) submit books through other people or b) that books sold by this person are not also suspect of having been trimmed?

 

a) They have no evidence to demonstrate that Ewert books were submitted (during that time period) by any one else. Absolutely zero. To their knowledge, nobody is currently submitting books for Ewert either.

 

b) There is no evidence, even tangential, to demonstrate that someone else is selling Ewert books. CGC would have to be going proactively after all frauds and that is not the service they provide.

 

Thanks for finding this out, Brian.

[Transplant]

I had dinner with Mark Haspel on Wednesday night, I discussed these issues:

 

1) Why does CGC refuse to release a list of books that it believes are suspect (by virtue of being submitted by this person)?

 

legal liability. They are contractually bound not to release this information from the submitter and legal action can be instituted. Even though banned, there is no conviction or any legal determination or even actual concrete evidence that Ewert trimmed the books himself. Therefore, they are still bound to protect the confidentiality.

 

2) Why does CGC not "proactively" contact registry set owners of the suspected books?

 

See answer above. Their job is to review any books to check for safety. Using information they hold is a potential violation of privacy.

 

Brian: Thank you for relaying some information. I hope you'll understand that I don't consider an official response from CGC on the matter but at least something is out there.

 

However, the responses on 1 & 2 just don't make any sense. I deal in contracts and federal law/regs on private health information all day long. To my knowledge, there is nothing that would cover the information at issue here: linking a CGC # with the identity of the submitter. I always defer to not being aware of some state or other statute/reg. But I have not seen anything in the submission form that would create an obligation on CGC's part to hold this information as protected. Therefore, at the risk of being blunt, it's either BS, paranoid or I'm an insufficiently_thoughtful_person b/c I've forgotten something.

[DrWatson]

Oh hell. Are you back already?

[Foolkiller]

I had dinner with Mark Haspel on Wednesday night, I discussed these issues:

 

1) Why does CGC refuse to release a list of books that it believes are suspect (by virtue of being submitted by this person)?

 

legal liability. They are contractually bound not to release this information from the submitter and legal action can be instituted. Even though banned, there is no conviction or any legal determination or even actual concrete evidence that Ewert trimmed the books himself. Therefore, they are still bound to protect the confidentiality.

 

2) Why does CGC not "proactively" contact registry set owners of the suspected books?

 

See answer above. Their job is to review any books to check for safety. Using information they hold is a potential violation of privacy.

 

Brian: Thank you for relaying some information. I hope you'll understand that I don't consider an official response from CGC on the matter but at least something is out there.

 

However, the responses on 1 & 2 just don't make any sense. I deal in contracts and federal law/regs on private health information all day long. To my knowledge, there is nothing that would cover the information at issue here: linking a CGC # with the identity of the submitter. I always defer to not being aware of some state or other statute/reg. But I have not seen anything in the submission form that would create an obligation on CGC's part to hold this information as protected. Therefore, at the risk of being blunt, it's either BS, paranoid or I'm an insufficiently_thoughtful_person b/c I've forgotten something.

 

The issue is whether it's written into the CGC contract when you submit or they have an internal policy that prevents it. In this case, it could be an internal policy. They retain a fairly large firm who does a lot of work for them on the coin side etc., and I believe they've reinforced the notion that are legally bound not to release the information.

 

Even if their lawyers are simply advising them that releasing the information is simply unwise -- the bottom line is, they don't believe they are allowed to release the information under their own agreements.