What would you do in this PLOD situation?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Just curious, but do you guys think the buyer assumes any responsibility with the purchase of a lightly restored book? The reason I ask is that I imagine that with many books the dealer has no idea that the book has been restored, especially if the buyer cannot even tell himself when considering the purchase. As we all know, the big (and even small) dealers out there are buying and selling (flipping) all the time. I guess what I'm trying to say is that my guess is that in most situations when a lightly restored book is sold, the seller is unaware of the restoration. Now I KNOW there are some slimy dealers out there who do this on purpose, but I'm talking the typical dealer here.

 

I always thought that when a buyer makes a purchase IN PERSON, that he is buying the book as is. As long as the buyer is able to take the book out, make a full examination, and then fork over an agreed upon price, then it is sold "as is". If the buyer is putting out a large wad of cash for the book(s) then he should only make the purchase if he has the ability to recognize any restoration and defects.

 

However, if the seller states clearly to the buyer that there is absolutely NO restoration of any kind, and THEN the book comes back PLOD, that is another story. But when no mention is made, I see it as sold "as is".

\

 

For sure the buyer has to take responsibility. Only in a case were the book turns out not to be 'as advertised' does the buyer have a legit complaint i.e. seller says book is unrestored and it turns out to be restored.

That is why, in this case, SpideySense has no real recourse, as the seller did not state the book was unrestored. If he had enquired prior to purchase, then he may have covered himself.

 

I disagree. If the seller makes no mention of RESTO...they are selling an UNRESTORED book.

 

This idea that the seller isn't responsible unless the buyer specifically asks if the book is restored is nonsense IMO.

 

" What's that? The book came back restored? That's too bad. Should have asked me about RESTO when you bought it... "

 

It is the sellers responsibility to DISCLOSE the resto in their description.

[SpideySense-migration]

I disagree. If the seller makes no mention of RESTO...they are selling an UNRESTORED book.

 

This idea that the seller isn't responsible unless the buyer specifically asks if the book is restored is nonsense IMO.

 

" What's that? The book came back restored? That's too bad. Should have asked me about RESTO when you bought it... "

 

It is the sellers responsibility to DISCLOSE the resto in their description.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. If a book is restored it SHOULD be marked as restored IMHO. If I was buying a car I would expect the seller to tell me it was wrecked and repaired without having to ask the question. Just good business. The buyer should NOT have to ask some magic questions beforehand in order to get their money back. However, as someone else mentioned in this thread, how does the dealer know that the buyer didn't switch books and is asking for money back on a book he didn't buy from the seller? I know I took very detailed pictures and posted them in the test thread for the TOS #52 which can be compared with the now slabbed copy, but I am not sure if I did the same for the Defenders #2. On that one I might have nothing except for my reputation and word. To be honest, if it were just the Defenders #2 I wouldn't even be asking for a refund. In the future I am going to be a lot more careful. Guess I will have to take my camera with me and ask the seller to pose with the comics I am going to buy from him to prove I did in fact buy from him if they come back restored.

[shadroch]

Sez who?

The book is there,you can examine it.

There is every possibility that the seller just bought the book,maybe even that day.Why is the onus on him.

Now,if the dealer bought the book as restored,he should pass that along,but the bigest problems tend to occur with unknown restoration. a dealer buys a large lot and a semi-key such as Defenders 2 or Subby 8 comes back with slight CT.Don't assume a book is unrestored simply because no one volunteers information otherwise.Get an answer and a refund policy or don't.Your choice.

When you buy a Silver Age book at a show,what are the chances that the dealer has had that book since it came off the newstand.

[SpideySense-migration]

Sez who?

The book is there,you can examine it.

There is every possibility that the seller just bought the book,maybe even that day.Why is the onus on him.

Now,if the dealer bought the book as restored,he should pass that along,but the bigest problems tend to occur with unknown restoration. a dealer buys a large lot and a semi-key such as Defenders 2 or Subby 8 comes back with slight CT.Don't assume a book is unrestored simply because no one volunteers information otherwise.Get an answer and a refund policy or don't.Your choice.

When you buy a Silver Age book at a show,what are the chances that the dealer has had that book since it came off the newstand.

 

OK, I am going to ask a couple stupid questions. Besides asking the seller if the book was restored should you also get something in writing at the convention? Should you take pictures of said comics when you buy them with the seller? I actually did buy some comics from another dealer that he just bought from a seller while I was at his booth. I definitely would NOT hold him accountable for those, but the stuff I bought out of his boxes I would like to think he is accountable for. I guess in the future to be on the safe side I will only buy from dealers I have dealt with that I trust or just buy CGC graded stuff if the comic is high value and only buy $100 or lower comics if I am prepared to lose that money. I am curious as to how others think on the subject.

[rjpb]

Considering you made a reasonably large purchase from the dealer - I would say contact him and let him know the books came back restored - and that you are unhappy with having paid full guide for restored books, but realize that he didn't know they were restored. See what he says - If you were generally happy with his grading maybe he can give you credit towards a future purchase.

[BassGMan]

Considering you made a reasonably large purchase from the dealer - I would say contact him and let him know the books came back restored - and that you are unhappy with having paid full guide for restored books, but realize that he didn't know they were restored. See what he says - If you were generally happy with his grading maybe he can give you credit towards a future purchase.

 

That certainly sounds reasonable. Regarding holding dealers accountable for all the books in their longboxes, well, I'm not so sure. Geez, I just had a book returned from PGA that was restored, CT on the cover. I had no idea, even after looking at it closely. It was not super high-grade, so I was just iffy on sending it in for grading anyway. If I did not send it in I would have just sold it raw without realizing it had CT. Once that I realized it DID have the CT I felt pretty stupid buying it. It was also graded a little lower than the dealer graded it on the little price sticker, is he also responsible for the grade? The thought never even occured to me to hold the dealer accountable. I bought the book at the last Chicago con and if I think hard enough who I bought it from I may remember, but I doubt he knew of the CT either. Either way, I bought as is, my problem now. If I had sold the book raw and then somebody else had it graded, then looked me up for a refund, yeah, I'd do it, but I'd think the guy should have examined it better himself before purchasing it, just as I should have done.

 

I know, carrying around a black light is not practical, but maybe a small magnifying glass along with learning the skills needed for CT detection should be in order for somebody wanting to make an informed purchase of a valuable book. If I was really smart, and if I wanted to make informed decisions, I would do that myself. BUT, it is too much of a bother for me so I'll just take my chances with what I've got and just eat it if I buy any more restored books after examining them myself. I'd do the same after buying a used car. If I test drive it and it drives OK and that's it, I buy it, then it falls apart a month later, then again, too bad for me. If I want to go to the extra effort and have a mechanic test it out on my dime, I'm even better off. Either way, make an informed purchase or you should not be spending your money. -----Sid

[skybolt]

I just wanted to make one more point on this issue. And I speak as both an experienced buyer and seller, so I like to always look at things from both angles and without being biased.

 

In a case like this, how does the seller even know that the book in question is the one that he sold? If a dealer sold an Action #1, or an ASM #1, sure he'll remember most of the details of that book. If I sold a Defenders #2 three months ago? Geez, how do I even know it is the same book that I sold? Maybe the buyer is trying to pawn off a defected book he bought from someone else on to me? Maybe he thinks I would remember selling A Defenders #2, so I'd be an easy target. There are some real slimy buyers out there as well. I've had guys come back wanting a refund for a book they'd bought two hours earlier from me at a con. Usually it was just because they found the book for cheaper somewhere else and wanted to return mine. I always oblige, because I often give the benefit of the doubt, but I don't have every copy of ASM or X-Men in my long boxes memorized. He could be making a switcheroo of some kind.

 

Anyway, just a few more points to think about. There are always two sides to every story, and don't assume that just because a seller won't cooperate (just in case that is the story here) that it is because he is trying to pull a fast one over on ya'. -----Sid

 

I think that a lot of dealers have a time limit on when you can return a book. If they don't specifically state that they'll give back a refund if the book comes back restored or a lower grade from CGC, then it would be really difficult to get your money back after 3 months. My question to the buyer is, what if the seller asks for all of his books back (since some came back with nice grades from CGC), and says that you can't pick or choose which books you want to keep? Would you return all the books for your money back? Lets say I list 10 WFC comics on Ebay as part of one sale. The final bid is about $400. Lets say that 6 of the books were better than I described, 3 were as described, but one was lower than described. Can the buyer return that one book for 1/10th of his money back?!

 

Last year I purchased an F.F #6 from Metro that was advertised as 8.5 for $1300. Upon receiving it, I quickly shipped the book to CGC for Express grading. When the book came back, it was graded at 6.0 due to a small stain on the back. I called Metro, but their policy of returning a book is within 2 weeks, and it had been about 25 days since my purchase. To Metro's credit, they had described the small stain on the back. However, I wish they could have factored that into their grading, since a lot of novice buyers out there do trust their grading standards.

 

Another bad experience I had on Ebay was when I paid about $1290 for an X-Men #1 described between 7.0 and 8.0. The seller had stated that he had shown this book to 12 LCS owners and this was the average grade. The book came back from CGC as a 7.5 PLOD with extensive restoration. The seller had not mentioned that the book was unrestored, but he was being really deceptive by not disclosing all of the information. Do you mean to tell me that none of the LCS owners was able to spot extensive resoration?! The buyer would not take back the book, so I left him negative feedback. He retaliated by also leaving me negative feedback (my only one) for no apparent reason than to get back at me.

[FlyingDonut]

Sez who?

The book is there,you can examine it.

There is every possibility that the seller just bought the book,maybe even that day.Why is the onus on him.

Now,if the dealer bought the book as restored,he should pass that along,but the bigest problems tend to occur with unknown restoration. a dealer buys a large lot and a semi-key such as Defenders 2 or Subby 8 comes back with slight CT.Don't assume a book is unrestored simply because no one volunteers information otherwise.Get an answer and a refund policy or don't.Your choice.

When you buy a Silver Age book at a show,what are the chances that the dealer has had that book since it came off the newstand.

 

OK, I am going to ask a couple stupid questions. Besides asking the seller if the book was restored should you also get something in writing at the convention? Should you take pictures of said comics when you buy them with the seller? I actually did buy some comics from another dealer that he just bought from a seller while I was at his booth. I definitely would NOT hold him accountable for those, but the stuff I bought out of his boxes I would like to think he is accountable for. I guess in the future to be on the safe side I will only buy from dealers I have dealt with that I trust or just buy CGC graded stuff if the comic is high value and only buy $100 or lower comics if I am prepared to lose that money. I am curious as to how others think on the subject.

 

Because I'm feeling ornery, here's another question.

 

I buy Fantastic Four 155 from a dealer. Lets call him GlazingGob. The Glazing one has graded the book as a NM 9.4, so it sells for $30. I'm happy. I get it graded. It comes back a NM/M 9.8, which just sold for $690.

 

Do I have to give Mr. Gob the $660?

 

What you proposing above is pretty much exactly this scenario, only reversed. Just something to think about. I've got two restored books I bought from Ted Van Liew. Ted didn't know they were restored. Unfortunately, its just part of the game.

[DKB]

Because I'm feeling ornery, here's another question.

 

I buy Fantastic Four 155 from a dealer. Lets call him GlazingGob. The Glazing one has graded the book as a NM 9.4, so it sells for $30. I'm happy. I get it graded. It comes back a NM/M 9.8, which just sold for $690.

 

Do I have to give Mr. Gob the $660?

 

What you proposing above is pretty much exactly this scenario, only reversed. Just something to think about. I've got two restored books I bought from Ted Van Liew. Ted didn't know they were restored. Unfortunately, its just part of the game.

 

I think a more accurate flip side to your scenario with Mr Gob would be if the book came back a 9.0, not if it came back restored. The thing with that though, is I can look at a book, tell its overgraded/overpriced and pass on it. Restoration can be such that its impossible to detect.

 

Not that I think dealers should be refunding books. Its not a dealer's job to be a restoration expert. I don't expect a dealer to go through an entire collection of books doing resto checks even if he IS a resto expert. And where does that chain of refunds end? You get a book from a dealer, who got the book from another dealer, who got the book from a owner, who got the book from a dealer, who got the book from the guy who bought it new at the store and had a kid who wiped a booger on a tiny tear to hold it together. Who owes who money?

[FFB]

In that case you will probably have to take the loss. When paying significant $$$ for raw SA and BA books always ask about restoration.

 

I can appreciate your position, but I feel that if a product was restored it should have been marked as restored. It is just like buying something from a store and you get home and find out what was in the box isn't what was advertised and you return it. I know if the situation was reversed and I was the seller instead of the buyer I would make things right, but that is just me. I just want what I paid for, nothing more or less. On the positive side a Hulk #122 came back 9.2, Avengers #9 came back 9.0 and a JIM #114 also came back 9.2 from this same dealer so it wasn't a total bust. Right now I am 3 Blue label and 2 Purple label out of 5 and waiting on 2 other comics to come back from CGC that I bought from this same dealer.

 

In most cases, I think dealers should provide refunds on books that are proven to be restored, as long as the buyer brings the book to the dealer's attention within a reasonable amount of time. On the other hand, if the restoration is something like a dot of color touch that is virtually invisible, or a professional chemical cleaning and pressing that is not easily detectible, or a dot of glue at a staple that is invisible except under a black light, and if the buyer waits a few months before trying to return it, then that's another story -- the buyer cannot "sleep on his rights" and wait forever before getting a second opinion. But a book with any kind of piece replacement or significant color touch, the dealer should offer a refund if he didn't disclose it before the sale, whether he actually knew about it or not.

 

As someone said previously, the smartest thing for the buyer to do would be to discuss with the dealer ahead of time what will happen if the books come back from CGC with purple labels.

[shadroch]

I know it seems lke I'm on both sides of this issue,but it is a fairly complex matter.

When I sell at shows,I don't put a grade on my books,only prices. The price,for the most part is negotiable.If it is a hi-ticket item,and the person wants to send it off to CGC,thats fine with me.The person can pay me the slabbing fees and we'll agree ahead of time on what price the book will be based on the CGC grade.

Or he can barter with me,get the best price he can and do what he wants with the book.Barring massive undisclosed restoration,the matter is closed,as far as I'm concerned.

As long as I hav'nt liberated a PLOD or knowing sold a book with any type of resto,I don't believe I have any further obligation to the book nor the buyer.If I sell at book at a VF+ price and it comes back a 9.6,does the buyer have an obligation to me?

Third party grading,which is all CGC is,is great before a sale is consumated. Its pretty meaningless afterwards.

If you're not sure what you are buying,and from whom,you might not want to be buying it in the first place.Stick to buying already slabbed books if you are risk adverse.

[SpideySense-migration]

Because I'm feeling ornery, here's another question.

 

I buy Fantastic Four 155 from a dealer. Lets call him GlazingGob. The Glazing one has graded the book as a NM 9.4, so it sells for $30. I'm happy. I get it graded. It comes back a NM/M 9.8, which just sold for $690.

 

Do I have to give Mr. Gob the $660?

 

What you proposing above is pretty much exactly this scenario, only reversed. Just something to think about. I've got two restored books I bought from Ted Van Liew. Ted didn't know they were restored. Unfortunately, its just part of the game.

 

To me, it doesn't matter if I bought 15 books off a dealer at a reasonable price and 14 came back Gem Mint CGC 10.0 and only 1 came back restored. It would still be the dealers responsiblity for the 1 restored comic IMHO because it wasn't disclosed it was restored at time of purchase. Don't get me wrong. Maybe expecting a dealer to be responsible for every comic in his boxes is a bit much, but at least the dealer should be responsible for high grade and high value comics in his boxes and definitely the ones displayed on his wall, don't you think?

 

I wasn't going to mention the guy's name I bought the 2 restored books from because I didn't want to subject the guy to being bad mouthed by others, but he just happens to be the same person you bought your 2 restored books from and you don't feel he should be held responsible. Do I think he tried to intentionally sell me restored books as unrestored? No, not with what I know about him. His ebay feedback speaks for itself (100% positive with 1,500+ feedbacks). He did in fact contact me shortly after my thread back in September after the Big Apple show because he noticed the TOS #52 he sold me that I was talking about. Why would he do that if he had just knowingly sold me a book he new was restored? Until proven otherwise I will give him the benefit of the doubt and others reading this thread should as well. He hasn't responded to my e-mail request for a refund, but he might not have read his e-mails in the past couple of days. Or maybe he seen the e-mail and just doesn't think he needs to respond and shouldn't be held responsible (opinions are split in here so maybe he shouldn't have to ). I just wanted and want a fair deal on books I bought thinking they were unrestored. I can only say I know what I would do if the situation was reversed and I was the seller.

[burntboy]

For sure the buyer has to take responsibility. Only in a case were the book turns out not to be 'as advertised' does the buyer have a legit complaint i.e. seller says book is unrestored and it turns out to be restored.

That is why, in this case, SpideySense has no real recourse, as the seller did not state the book was unrestored. If he had enquired prior to purchase, then he may have covered himself.

 

I disagree. If the seller makes no mention of RESTO...they are selling an UNRESTORED book.

 

This idea that the seller isn't responsible unless the buyer specifically asks if the book is restored is nonsense IMO.

 

" What's that? The book came back restored? That's too bad. Should have asked me about RESTO when you bought it... "

 

It is the sellers responsibility to DISCLOSE the resto in their description.

 

gotta agree with Beyonder here, if i specifically ask the guy, he says no. then i should expect him to refund my money willingly. as opposed to the instance where i didn't ask, and he's somehow off the hook?

 

what's the difference, really?? he's not aware of the resto in either scenario. so whether you ask or not, shouldn't really matter to a reputable dealer, as long as you both agree the book in question is the one sold.........IMO.

[shadroch]

Not that this affects the conversation much,but if the only resto on the TOS 52 is a slight colour touch,it can easily be removed should you choose to pay an expert.That way,assuming you don't get your refund,at least you will have a book in the condition you thought you were buying.

[blazingbob]

I think you should buy glazinggob a coffee the next time you see him. I had a collector at the NY show say that a X-Men #121 he bought out of my inventory came back 9.8. Others came back 9.4's with a couple of 9.6's. Obviously we both benefit since he spent some more money on raw books and I learned that maybe I should pay a little more attention to what's in my inventory.

[Darthdiesel]

[blazingbob]

Any dealer who is giving a buyer a hard time with a refund or credit is basically losing a customer forever.

[burntboy]

Any dealer who is giving a buyer a hard time with a refund or credit is basically losing a customer forever.

 

well said - i would suspect that spideysense can get some satisfaction from Ted....

[chrisco37]

Any dealer who is giving a buyer a hard time with a refund or credit is basically losing a customer forever.

 

well said - i would suspect that spideysense can get some satisfaction from Ted....

 

Absolutely. I'd try calling him. Leave a message. He'll get back to you and rectify the situation (I would guess that they've been busy w/ Nat'l Con and just haven't had a chance to get to spideysense's email).

[shadroch]

If the dealer wants to give a refund in expectation of keeping a future client,thats a whole 'nother story.What a dealer does for consumer satisfaction is different from what he is obligated to do.I've said fom the beginning the dealer should make some amends,but that he isn't obligated to.However,if the buyer makes a big to do about it and is unpleasant,the seller won't want him as a future client anyway.