Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Didn't CGC state that the "Costanza" effect could be remedied by a light pressing?

 

I vaguely recall that, but I don't recall anyone offering a good explanation as for how another pressing would un-shrink a cover.

 

Are my posts invisible?

 

 

Odd, though, one would think after the flag was raised so long ago, that all the books just now coming to market, would have already been returned for the "light pressing" to fix the shrunken covers, prior to putting them on the auction block.

 

Huh? Not sure what you mean.

 

If you determined that a service you contracted damaged your product and it was later stated that the damage could be fixed, would you not return it to be fixed prior to auctioning it? Especially now that there is a heightened awareness about the issue among many of the folks who are regular bidders for such items?

 

Per my reply to this notion earlier, I don't think there's been enough time to try and resubmit for a "fix", or perhaps the new owners don't care to try, can't afford to try, or don't think it makes a difference, etc., etc.

I'm not talking about the new owners. I am talking about the person who initially had the work done, in many/most cases for no other reason than to make the books more marketable. It simply defies logic, that the original submitter would not have returned the book to be "repaired".

 

TATs might be a factor

[fantastic_four]

I won't be reading 492 pages of this, but how does a book with a big "R" written on the cover get a 9.6?

 

CGC downgrades for that about like they do miswrap and interior page pokethrough, i.e. barely at all below the 9.9 level. I think they did downgrade further for many of the Winnipeg books though where Dennis Kjolso signed his name really prominently over at least some of the title logos.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

 

TATs might be a factor

 

Do we really think if someone has several thousand $ worth of books damaged they would have to wait in line again? or is that a not so subtle jab?

[THE_BEYONDER]

 

TATs might be a factor

 

Do we really think if someone has several thousand $ worth of books damaged they would have to wait in line again? or is that a not so subtle jab?

 

I was poking fun at the turnaround times....

 

 

[originalisbest]

Would be nice to have some form of response from Zaid, Nelson and/or Litch at this point.

 

This issue is NOT going away...I ensure you.

 

It's nice of you to ensure me, but I already have coverage.

 

 

BTW, I agree with you, and was just having some fun with the word mixup.

 

Mixup?

 

You may want to google the word 'ensure'.

 

Let us agree to disagree on the awkwardness of your phrasing then, if not the more-or-less correct nature of it:

 

en·sure

transitive verb \in-ˈshu̇r\

: to make (something) sure, certain, or safe

en·sureden·sur·ing

Full Definition of ENSURE

: to make sure, certain, or safe : guarantee

 

as·sure

transitive verb \ə-ˈshu̇r\

: to make (something) certain

: to tell someone in a very strong and definite way that something will happen or that something is true

 

Assure is something you do to a person, a group of people, or an animal to remove doubt or anxiety, as in Squiggly assured Aardvark that he'd come to the party early. You can remember that assure can only be used with things that are alive (and both assure and alive start with a). Only things that are alive can feel doubt or anxiety, so only they can be assured.

 

Ensure is something you do to guarantee an event or condition, as in To ensure there'd be enough food, Aardvark ordered twice as much food as last year. You can remember that guarantee has those two e's on the end to help you remember that to ensure (with an e) is to guarantee something.

 

FWIW, for my joke to be correct, you'd have to have said insure. So in this, I was also wrong. If you had said "I will ensure it" then you'd be correct. If you had said "I assure you" that too would be correct. But you cannot "ensure" me. And probably not insure me either, unless that happens to be your line.

 

 

 

 

[fantastic_four]

If I do the humidity-only experiment, I'll sort of be flying blind; I wouldn't be comfortable doing that with anything but real beaters.

 

That's the way to do any experimentation, on low-grade cheapies that aren't so damaged that the damage could affect the shrinkage. Any pressing I've experimented with I did on the Richie Rich comics I bought as a kid in the 80s. I've never built a humidity chamber yet, but I've researched them and thought about it. Any amount of spine roll from folding a cover back would have to eliminate a test candidate.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Would be nice to have some form of response from Zaid, Nelson and/or Litch at this point.

 

This issue is NOT going away...I ensure you.

 

It's nice of you to ensure me, but I already have coverage.

 

 

BTW, I agree with you, and was just having some fun with the word mixup.

 

Mixup?

 

You may want to google the word 'ensure'.

 

Let us agree to disagree on the awkwardness of your phrasing then, if not the more-or-less correct nature of it:

 

en·sure

transitive verb \in-ˈshu̇r\

: to make (something) sure, certain, or safe

en·sureden·sur·ing

Full Definition of ENSURE

: to make sure, certain, or safe : guarantee

 

as·sure

transitive verb \ə-ˈshu̇r\

: to make (something) certain

: to tell someone in a very strong and definite way that something will happen or that something is true

 

Assure is something you do to a person, a group of people, or an animal to remove doubt or anxiety, as in Squiggly assured Aardvark that he'd come to the party early. You can remember that assure can only be used with things that are alive (and both assure and alive start with a). Only things that are alive can feel doubt or anxiety, so only they can be assured.

 

Ensure is something you do to guarantee an event or condition, as in To ensure there'd be enough food, Aardvark ordered twice as much food as last year. You can remember that guarantee has those two e's on the end to help you remember that to ensure (with an e) is to guarantee something.

 

FWIW, for my joke to be correct, you'd have to have said insure. So in this, I was also wrong. If you had said "I will ensure it" then you'd be correct. If you had said "I assure you" that too would be correct. But you cannot "ensure" me. And probably not insure me either, unless that happens to be your line.

 

 

 

 

 

I meant assure

[originalisbest]

If I do the humidity-only experiment, I'll sort of be flying blind; I wouldn't be comfortable doing that with anything but real beaters.

 

That's the way to do any experimentation, on low-grade cheapies that aren't so damaged that the damage could affect the shrinkage. Any pressing I've experimented with I did on the Richie Rich comics I bought as a kid in the 80s. I've never built a humidity chamber yet, but I've researched them and thought about it. Any amount of spine roll from folding a cover back would have to eliminate a test candidate.

 

Problem with most of the books that are at issue, is they're the scarcer early Marvels from the first part of the 60's, due to the nature of their production and makeup (as has been pointed out many times previously.) Maybe some sacrificial test books could be drawn from the least popular genres of the time... westerns?

[originalisbest]

Would be nice to have some form of response from Zaid, Nelson and/or Litch at this point.

 

This issue is NOT going away...I ensure you.

 

It's nice of you to ensure me, but I already have coverage.

 

 

BTW, I agree with you, and was just having some fun with the word mixup.

 

Mixup?

 

You may want to google the word 'ensure'.

 

Let us agree to disagree on the awkwardness of your phrasing then, if not the more-or-less correct nature of it:

 

en·sure

transitive verb \in-ˈshu̇r\

: to make (something) sure, certain, or safe

en·sureden·sur·ing

Full Definition of ENSURE

: to make sure, certain, or safe : guarantee

 

as·sure

transitive verb \ə-ˈshu̇r\

: to make (something) certain

: to tell someone in a very strong and definite way that something will happen or that something is true

 

Assure is something you do to a person, a group of people, or an animal to remove doubt or anxiety, as in Squiggly assured Aardvark that he'd come to the party early. You can remember that assure can only be used with things that are alive (and both assure and alive start with a). Only things that are alive can feel doubt or anxiety, so only they can be assured.

 

Ensure is something you do to guarantee an event or condition, as in To ensure there'd be enough food, Aardvark ordered twice as much food as last year. You can remember that guarantee has those two e's on the end to help you remember that to ensure (with an e) is to guarantee something.

 

FWIW, for my joke to be correct, you'd have to have said insure. So in this, I was also wrong. If you had said "I will ensure it" then you'd be correct. If you had said "I assure you" that too would be correct. But you cannot "ensure" me. And probably not insure me either, unless that happens to be your line.

 

 

 

 

 

I meant assure

 

I know.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Foot planted firmly in mouth...

[joeypost]

If I do the humidity-only experiment, I'll sort of be flying blind; I wouldn't be comfortable doing that with anything but real beaters.

 

That's the way to do any experimentation, on low-grade cheapies that aren't so damaged that the damage could affect the shrinkage. Any pressing I've experimented with I did on the Richie Rich comics I bought as a kid in the 80s. I've never built a humidity chamber yet, but I've researched them and thought about it. Any amount of spine roll from folding a cover back would have to eliminate a test candidate.

 

Problem with most of the books that are at issue, is they're the scarcer early Marvels from the first part of the 60's, due to the nature of their production and makeup (as has been pointed out many times previously.) Maybe some sacrificial test books could be drawn from the least popular genres of the time... westerns?

 

There are so many factors to take into consideration it would be difficult at best to draw any conclusion based on one group of books from the era we are looking at.

 

1. Is it just uber high grade books that were stored in a controlled environment that have a propensity to shrink?

2. Are beaters less likely to shrink since they have been introduced into a hostile environment already?

3. What is the sweet spot of humidity and temperature?

4. What is the correct amount of time under heat that allows for the cover to shrink?

5. Is it the way the book is actually made?

6. Could it have been defective paper from that time period?

7. Bad techniques?

8. Is it being done on purpose?

 

The list is exhaustive. The only way to really do it right is to try multiple combinations on multiple books.

[fantastic_four]

Problem with most of the books that are at issue, is they're the scarcer early Marvels from the first part of the 60's, due to the nature of their production and makeup (as has been pointed out many times previously.) Maybe some sacrificial test books could be drawn from the least popular genres of the time... westerns?

 

We're not sure of the time range. Anywhere from FF #1 in 1961 to the pre-Cap 100/Iron Man 1/Hulk 102 month from 1968 when Marvel stopped using the Sparta printer range of issues might work. Borock suggested the cutoff was more around 1965 or so, but he declined to provide details. Something cheap like a Western from 1967 MIGHT work, but going with Borock's input, 1964 or 1965 would probably be better. I'm currently thinking anything that is subject to overflash on the top/bottom is also subject to shrinkage, but I don't entirely remember the latest book I've seen overflash on.

[Timely]

Apart from fiddling around with the books themselves, my main argument is if we're to discern subtle, truly minute appearance differences via scans, then the before and after scans and setup have to be on identical equipment and done in exactly the same manner, as much as is reasonably possible.

 

If Joey and Matt humidify with something other than water, I'd be surprised. We all have the same equipment--water--it's just a matter of different techniques for getting the water into the book. Here's how to jump to the extreme end of the humidification spectrum and guarantee shrinkage, if indeed all covers from all ages can shrink--dunk it underwater. Humidification can't get more extreme than that, and if a cover's going to shrink, it will shrink when submerged in water.

 

Perhaps it is not a question of how much humidity being applied, but the drying methods and amount of time.

 

A comic should follow the same principles as a shirt that is put in the laundry. It's not the washing machine that shrinks the shirt, its the dryer!

[fantastic_four]

1. Is it just uber high grade books that were stored in a controlled environment that have a propensity to shrink?

2. Are beaters less likely to shrink since they have been introduced into a hostile environment already?

3. What is the sweet spot of humidity and temperature?

4. What is the correct amount of time under heat that allows for the cover to shrink?

5. Is it the way the book is actually made?

6. Could it have been defective paper from that time period?

7. Bad techniques?

8. Is it being done on purpose?

 

The list is exhaustive. The only way to really do it right is to try multiple combinations on multiple books.

 

Possibilities 1 and 2 seem unlikely. Learning points 3 and 4 should the primary goal for experimentation. We may never know 5 and 6 either way. Point 7 is self-evident--nobody wants shrinkage, so yes, if you're shrinking, that's bad, stop doing what you're doing. Matt explicitly communicated that himself by writing one of his "improper pressing" articles on shrinkage. Possibility 8 isn't at all likely, although it may be done not exactly on purpose but with willful disregard for whether or not the shrinkage actually ends up happening.

 

The easiest way to reduce the number of combinations is to start with high humidity by dunking in water, measure, press on the highest heat that won't start a fire and measure again on multiple copies of the same title and issue. If they all do the same thing after humidity or they all do the same thing after the press--which shouldn't happen to both variables unless you got unlucky with the copies you picked--you should have a benchmark. Then you'd have to repeat at lower humidities and lower temperatures and keep repeating until you never see shrinkage again. You may be able to rule out humidity or heat early on if either technique never results in shrinkage.

 

But yea, it's not easy and could require as much as a few hundred test candidates. My guess is it would take far fewer, but it would take at least dozens to find out the complete range that leads to shrinkage. If you're COMPLETELY certain that you yourself have never shrunken a cover--and perhaps you're not if this didn't occur to you until this thread--then you already know a safe lower range for humidity and temperature and that it must be above what you're using now. You might actually start by looking back at whatever before and after scans you have of past books you've done to see if you may have shrunken a cover and didn't notice it because the difference was so slight.

[joeypost]

I just purchased a hand held microscope and will take before and after pictures of books that were pressed. Corners, staples and outside edges. It will be after the new year before I start any of that but it will give us a better idea of what is going on when a book is pressed.

[J DUB]

Cool idea joeypost. I cant wait to see the results.

[MrBedrock]

Would be nice to have some form of response from Zaid, Nelson and/or Litch at this point.

 

This issue is NOT going away...I ensure you.

 

It's nice of you to ensure me, but I already have coverage.

 

 

BTW, I agree with you, and was just having some fun with the word mixup.

 

Mixup?

 

You may want to google the word 'ensure'.

 

Let us agree to disagree on the awkwardness of your phrasing then, if not the more-or-less correct nature of it:

 

en·sure

transitive verb \in-ˈshu̇r\

: to make (something) sure, certain, or safe

en·sureden·sur·ing

Full Definition of ENSURE

: to make sure, certain, or safe : guarantee

 

as·sure

transitive verb \ə-ˈshu̇r\

: to make (something) certain

: to tell someone in a very strong and definite way that something will happen or that something is true

 

Assure is something you do to a person, a group of people, or an animal to remove doubt or anxiety, as in Squiggly assured Aardvark that he'd come to the party early. You can remember that assure can only be used with things that are alive (and both assure and alive start with a). Only things that are alive can feel doubt or anxiety, so only they can be assured.

 

Ensure is something you do to guarantee an event or condition, as in To ensure there'd be enough food, Aardvark ordered twice as much food as last year. You can remember that guarantee has those two e's on the end to help you remember that to ensure (with an e) is to guarantee something.

 

FWIW, for my joke to be correct, you'd have to have said insure. So in this, I was also wrong. If you had said "I will ensure it" then you'd be correct. If you had said "I assure you" that too would be correct. But you cannot "ensure" me. And probably not insure me either, unless that happens to be your line.

 

 

 

It took this wonderful post to ensure that the dork it was directed at was assured of his ineptness.

Well done (thumbs u

[Randall Dowling]

Perhaps it is not a question of how much humidity being applied, but the drying methods and amount of time.

 

A comic should follow the same principles as a shirt that is put in the laundry. It's not the washing machine that shrinks the shirt, its the dryer!

 

Bingo.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Would be nice to have some form of response from Zaid, Nelson and/or Litch at this point.

 

This issue is NOT going away...I ensure you.

 

It's nice of you to ensure me, but I already have coverage.

 

 

BTW, I agree with you, and was just having some fun with the word mixup.

 

Mixup?

 

You may want to google the word 'ensure'.

 

Let us agree to disagree on the awkwardness of your phrasing then, if not the more-or-less correct nature of it:

 

en·sure

transitive verb \in-ˈshu̇r\

: to make (something) sure, certain, or safe

en·sureden·sur·ing

Full Definition of ENSURE

: to make sure, certain, or safe : guarantee

 

as·sure

transitive verb \ə-ˈshu̇r\

: to make (something) certain

: to tell someone in a very strong and definite way that something will happen or that something is true

 

Assure is something you do to a person, a group of people, or an animal to remove doubt or anxiety, as in Squiggly assured Aardvark that he'd come to the party early. You can remember that assure can only be used with things that are alive (and both assure and alive start with a). Only things that are alive can feel doubt or anxiety, so only they can be assured.

 

Ensure is something you do to guarantee an event or condition, as in To ensure there'd be enough food, Aardvark ordered twice as much food as last year. You can remember that guarantee has those two e's on the end to help you remember that to ensure (with an e) is to guarantee something.

 

FWIW, for my joke to be correct, you'd have to have said insure. So in this, I was also wrong. If you had said "I will ensure it" then you'd be correct. If you had said "I assure you" that too would be correct. But you cannot "ensure" me. And probably not insure me either, unless that happens to be your line.

 

 

 

It took this wonderful post to ensure that the dork it was directed at was assured of his ineptness.

Well done (thumbs u

 

A little late to the party Stretch

[originalisbest]

1. Is it just uber high grade books that were stored in a controlled environment that have a propensity to shrink?

2. Are beaters less likely to shrink since they have been introduced into a hostile environment already?

3. What is the sweet spot of humidity and temperature?

4. What is the correct amount of time under heat that allows for the cover to shrink?

5. Is it the way the book is actually made?

6. Could it have been defective paper from that time period?

7. Bad techniques?

8. Is it being done on purpose?

 

The list is exhaustive. The only way to really do it right is to try multiple combinations on multiple books.

 

Possibilities 1 and 2 seem unlikely. Learning points 3 and 4 should the primary goal for experimentation. We may never know 5 and 6 either way. Point 7 is self-evident--nobody wants shrinkage, so yes, if you're shrinking, that's bad, stop doing what you're doing. Matt explicitly communicated that himself by writing one of his "improper pressing" articles on shrinkage. Possibility 8 isn't at all likely, although it may be done not exactly on purpose but with willful disregard for whether or not the shrinkage actually ends up happening.

 

The easiest way to reduce the number of combinations is to start with high humidity by dunking in water, measure, press on the highest heat that won't start a fire and measure again on multiple copies of the same title and issue. If they all do the same thing after humidity or they all do the same thing after the press--which shouldn't happen to both variables unless you got unlucky with the copies you picked--you should have a benchmark. Then you'd have to repeat at lower humidities and lower temperatures and keep repeating until you never see shrinkage again. You may be able to rule out humidity or heat early on if either technique never results in shrinkage.

 

But yea, it's not easy and could require as much as a few hundred test candidates. My guess is it would take far fewer, but it would take at least dozens to find out the complete range that leads to shrinkage. If you're COMPLETELY certain that you yourself have never shrunken a cover--and perhaps you're not if this didn't occur to you until this thread--then you already know a safe lower range for humidity and temperature and that it must be above what you're using now. You might actually start by looking back at whatever before and after scans you have of past books you've done to see if you may have shrunken a cover and didn't notice it because the difference was so slight.

 

Thanks for the various thoughts -- Joey, I look forward to what you find out in the new year!