Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[drbanner]

It's almost certainly excessive humidity that Matt has been trying recently.

That would explain it, as Joey described above. But how do you know Matt has been experimenting with excessive humidity? Seems like one would experiment on something other than a Half-Million dollar collection first.

[VintageComics]

It's the nature of the material used for the covers. You can't expect to add heat and moisture and not have shrinkage.

 

Yes you can. As Joeypost pointed out and as many have pointed out about Matt's pressing until this year, they've both been doing it for years without seeing shrinkage. It's almost certainly excessive humidity that Matt has been trying recently. I've seen no evidence of this prior to this year or even the summer of this year.

 

I'm leaning towards it being excessive moisture as well.

 

The question is, why use the excessive moisture now and not before?

 

I don't understand how that helps a book heat up or cool down, which likely would be the longest step in the process.

[Comicopolis]

To protect the seller I cannot show you evidence but I recently was shown the CCS invoice for some books along with before and after scans. The only books that did not display this Constanza effect were a couple that were not pressed = No Service by CCS.

Obviously Matt has too big of a fan base to put any pressure on him via the these Boards. I like Matt also, it's like he went to the Dark Side or something after becoming CCS. I am truly sad to see this happening but it is. As previously stated, I now inquire about any suspicious book of interest as to who did the pressing. As an individual, that's all I can do.

 

Are you suggesting the pressing from that invoice was done recently? What month?

 

Matt didn't cross over to any Dark Side. He skirts the line and sometimes crosses it but tries to stay ethical. That was true long before he worked with Heritage or CGC. He's trying to make a living from comics, so I can mostly respect what he does even when he screws up.

 

Only tries to stay ethical?

[BEAUMONTS]

Regardless of Matt's reason for cranking up the humidity, the end result is a basic sacrilege of the very medium that he is by all account's, one of the best in the world.

Is this pressure from the parent company? Is it a shift in what he interprets as "acceptable"?

The end result is altering "permanently" the aesthetics of some on the finest examples of comics in the world, I sure wouldn't want to be known as the person that spearheaded this, and especially the ramifications of CGC being the "standard"of the industry.

Either someone is sleeping at the wheel or it's just plain old greed, either way it is a sad state of affairs and shameful.

[drbanner]

While this fiasco is a black eye on CGC, once they start using the Conserved Label they will be able to use label notes to disclose the books they have pressed in-house. That should give some confidence back to the community that they know what they're buying (pressed, dry-cleaned, solvent-cleaned, whatever else fits under the "conserved" umbrella of manipulations that aren't considered "restoration").

[Davenport]

Regardless of Matt's reason for cranking up the humidity, the end result is a basic sacrilege of the very medium that he is by all account's, one of the best in the world.

Is this pressure from the parent company? Is it a shift in what he interprets as "acceptable"?

The end result is altering "permanently" the aesthetics of some on the finest examples of comics in the world, I sure wouldn't want to be known as the person that spearheaded this, and especially the ramifications of CGC being the "standard"of the industry.

Either someone is sleeping at the wheel or it's just plain old greed, either way it is a sad state of affairs and shameful.

Another end result is the CGC grade rises. That's the primary reason clients submit for the CCS/CGC service route. As it stands the treatment is both viable and effective.

 

That some don't care for the after-treatment aesthetics may be more of an irritant than a deterrent. A problem to be managed, not solved.

[Foolkiller]

While this fiasco is a black eye on CGC, once they start using the Conserved Label they will be able to use label notes to disclose the books they have pressed in-house. That should give some confidence back to the community that they know what they're buying (pressed, dry-cleaned, solvent-cleaned, whatever else fits under the "conserved" umbrella of manipulations that aren't considered "restoration").

 

I know you know they aren't going to do this.

[Comicopolis]

While this fiasco is a black eye on CGC, once they start using the Conserved Label they will be able to use label notes to disclose the books they have pressed in-house. That should give some confidence back to the community that they know what they're buying (pressed, dry-cleaned, solvent-cleaned, whatever else fits under the "conserved" umbrella of manipulations that aren't considered "restoration").

 

And Santa is real!

[drbanner]

Regardless of Matt's reason for cranking up the humidity, the end result is a basic sacrilege of the very medium that he is by all account's, one of the best in the world.

Is this pressure from the parent company? Is it a shift in what he interprets as "acceptable"?

The end result is altering "permanently" the aesthetics of some on the finest examples of comics in the world, I sure wouldn't want to be known as the person that spearheaded this, and especially the ramifications of CGC being the "standard"of the industry.

Either someone is sleeping at the wheel or it's just plain old greed, either way it is a sad state of affairs and shameful.

Another end result is the CGC grade rises. That's the primary reason clients submit for the CCS/CGC service route. As it stands the treatment is both viable and effective.

 

That some don't care for the after-treatment aesthetics may be more of an irritant than a deterrent. A problem to be managed, not solved.

It's not just the aesthetics that have been altered, the book has been damaged, which is why the grade has dropped. Or, if you do the work in-house you can conclude that the damage actually increases the grade, not decreases the grade.

[ciorac]

While this fiasco is a black eye on CGC, once they start using the Conserved Label they will be able to use label notes to disclose the books they have pressed in-house. That should give some confidence back to the community that they know what they're buying (pressed, dry-cleaned, solvent-cleaned, whatever else fits under the "conserved" umbrella of manipulations that aren't considered "restoration").

 

I know you know they aren't going to do this.

 

he knows. But it is the drum he most likes to beat. Pressing conserves nothing, hence it won't be part of the "conserved" lexicon.

[Davenport]

Regardless of Matt's reason for cranking up the humidity, the end result is a basic sacrilege of the very medium that he is by all account's, one of the best in the world.

Is this pressure from the parent company? Is it a shift in what he interprets as "acceptable"?

The end result is altering "permanently" the aesthetics of some on the finest examples of comics in the world, I sure wouldn't want to be known as the person that spearheaded this, and especially the ramifications of CGC being the "standard"of the industry.

Either someone is sleeping at the wheel or it's just plain old greed, either way it is a sad state of affairs and shameful.

Another end result is the CGC grade rises. That's the primary reason clients submit for the CCS/CGC service route. As it stands the treatment is both viable and effective.

 

That some don't care for the after-treatment aesthetics may be more of an irritant than a deterrent. A problem to be managed, not solved.

It's not just the aesthetics that have been altered, the book has been damaged, which is why the grade has dropped. Or, if you do the work in-house you can conclude that the damage actually increases the grade, not decreases the grade.

I think we're on the same page. By 'aesthetics' I mean the alteration/damage is visible, looks unnatural.

If they could dial it back just enough to mimic 'natural', that would probably end the complaints. The only crime here is that it can be 'seen'. Not that books are being refurbished, it's that the 'mimic' quite didn't take.

 

[Bomber-Bob]

I know Matt has been using moisture for a long time. The difference is it is now probably excessive. I remember Stephen Ritter, Matt's partner with Worldwide, said that the moisture added a suppleness to the paper, sometimes resulting in a PQ bump. That made sense to me and I thought moisture was a good thing, until now. Speaking of Stephen Ritter, I like him. He is an honest, friendly, and forthright dealer. Knowing that Matt worked on most of the Worldwide inventory, their books seems free of this effect. Either Stephen kept Matt in line or Matt simply behaved with his own inventory.

[paul747]

- Is it not possible that the RH of this collection was at a higher level? If the same humidity treatment was used, in the same way but the books naturally had more than usual humidity would this not over humidify the entire collection? After reading a lot of these posts the one thing I take away, besides all of the very knowledgeable comic guys is the fact that comics are similar to golf . The situation is always different with different books. what if The presser did nothing different than usual but the books where just different? IS this possible?

[joeypost]

- Is it not possible that the RH of this collection was at a higher level? If the same humidity treatment was used, in the same way but the books naturally had more than usual humidity would this not over humidify the entire collection? After reading a lot of these posts the one thing I take away, besides all of the very knowledgeable comic guys is the fact that comics are similar to golf . The situation is always different with different books. what if The presser did nothing different than usual but the books where just different? IS this possible?

 

Highly unlikely.

[THE_BEYONDER]

- Is it not possible that the RH of this collection was at a higher level? If the same humidity treatment was used, in the same way but the books naturally had more than usual humidity would this not over humidify the entire collection? After reading a lot of these posts the one thing I take away, besides all of the very knowledgeable comic guys is the fact that comics are similar to golf . The situation is always different with different books. what if The presser did nothing different than usual but the books where just different? IS this possible?

 

Highly unlikely.

 

ie; unpossible

[THE_BEYONDER]

I think Matt tried to take it to 11....and failed.

 

 

 

[mschmidt]

While this fiasco is a black eye on CGC, once they start using the Conserved Label they will be able to use label notes to disclose the books they have pressed in-house. That should give some confidence back to the community that they know what they're buying (pressed, dry-cleaned, solvent-cleaned, whatever else fits under the "conserved" umbrella of manipulations that aren't considered "restoration").

 

I know you know they aren't going to do this.

 

he knows. But it is the drum he most likes to beat. Pressing conserves nothing, hence it won't be part of the "conserved" lexicon.

 

And solvent-cleaning has always been considered restoration and is already noted on the label - but, of course, he knows that too :doh:

[gaz973]

I know Matt has been using moisture for a long time. The difference is it is now probably excessive. I remember Stephen Ritter, Matt's partner with Worldwide, said that the moisture added a suppleness to the paper, sometimes resulting in a PQ bump. That made sense to me and I thought moisture was a good thing, until now. Speaking of Stephen Ritter, I like him. He is an honest, friendly, and forthright dealer. Knowing that Matt worked on most of the Worldwide inventory, their books seems free of this effect. Either Stephen kept Matt in line or Matt simply behaved with his own inventory.

While stuff like the shill bidding episodes always cast Matts ethics as very questionable to me, he always seemed to have a very solid reputation in the knowledge of comic restoration and related topics.

 

With him being the head of CCS and with CCS damaging books like this while pressing and continuing to damage them after it's been bought to light and Matt has offered assurances that this will be taken care of, how much is this going to hurt the reputation of CCS and by association, Matt? I wouldn't send books to be pressed because I don't like the practice but if I did, this would ensure that CCS would be the last people that I'd be sending my books to.

[Comicopolis]

I know Matt has been using moisture for a long time. The difference is it is now probably excessive. I remember Stephen Ritter, Matt's partner with Worldwide, said that the moisture added a suppleness to the paper, sometimes resulting in a PQ bump. That made sense to me and I thought moisture was a good thing, until now. Speaking of Stephen Ritter, I like him. He is an honest, friendly, and forthright dealer. Knowing that Matt worked on most of the Worldwide inventory, their books seems free of this effect. Either Stephen kept Matt in line or Matt simply behaved with his own inventory.

While stuff like the shill bidding episodes always cast Matts ethics as very questionable to me, he always seemed to have a very solid reputation in the knowledge of comic restoration and related topics.

 

With him being the head of CCS and with CCS damaging books like this while pressing and continuing to damage them after it's been bought to light and Matt has offered assurances that this will be taken care of, how much is this going to hurt the reputation of CCS and by association, Matt? I wouldn't send books to be pressed because I don't like the practice but if I did, this would ensure that CCS would be the last people that I'd be sending my books to.

 

C'mon - somebody in this very thread said he was at least trying to be ethical.

 

Surely you can't knock somebody for trying?

[skypinkblu]

It's almost certainly excessive humidity that Matt has been trying recently.

That would explain it, as Joey described above. But how do you know Matt has been experimenting with excessive humidity? Seems like one would experiment on something other than a Half-Million dollar collection first.

 

I mentioned this way back in the beginning. While I've had my own issues with Matt, he IS very talented, there is no doubt...and there is also NO doubt, that he does not press each book himself, he has people working for him.

 

He admitted this fact when he did answer in the beginning of this thread.

 

He also said his people were wonderful...or something in that vein, which is a nice thing to say, but I doubt that the others have his skills.

 

. Isn't it possible, that one of the other people pressing the books who didn't know as much as Matt used too much moisture?

 

I think that's the most likely explanation.

 

I'm still disappointed that Mark Zaid never came back as promised and reported his findings.

 

I know he's a busy guy, but it's been quite a while and

I've been waiting for him to post and update because he's much more likely to be able to gather some real answers instead of us all guessing and speculating...

 

So Mark...where are you?