Answer from CGC.........

[Norrin_Radd]

I should run an add for my diamond-studded case where a comic without it sells for $20 but with my patented DES (Diamond Encrusted Slab) that same comic sells for $300,000. Too bad the case and diamond carat cost is also $300K.

 

[arexcrooke]

I should run an add for my diamond-studded case where a comic without it sells for $20 but with my patented DES (Diamond Encrusted Slab) that same comic sells for $300,000. Too bad the case and diamond carat cost is also $300K.

 

[DiceX]

NR, all you need is a little digital industrial laser caliper.. they are currenly used to measure the thickness of coatings applied to metal, wood etc. In fact, if you have the raw book, you can probably find a pair of manual measuring calipers that will do the job.

 

Red, that was funnier than your last 4 pictures combined.

Surely you were joking.

 

 

 

[Red Hook]

No......I've simply gone insane!

[Farkus-migration]

I thought it was pretty obvious that when comparing a $20 NM sale of a comic with a $100 sale of a NM 9.8 copy that the $15 grading fee and S&H fee should be part of the equation. If CGC is promoting their profit making ability then post all the costs involved with getting the slab.

Yeah, and they should have included a notation detailing the original cost of the books, and the gas costs (or food if the person walked or biked) associated with originally purchasing them.

 

Why is something this obvious so difficult for some people to see? The costs listed in your posts are not quantifiable (and pretty stupid if I say so myself) but grading costs are 100% consistent. It is right there on the price list and if CGC is going to extol the virtues of their profit-making machine ($20 vs. $100), then showing their grading charges would be in the best interests of truth in advertising.

 

Or to look at it in real life let's say a guy has a 9.8 (assumed) copy of a comic, according to the ad he can reasonably expect a $20 return selling it as-is, but he cannot get $100 as a CGC 9.8. That's because there are grading/shipping charges that need to be paid in order to grade that comic and sell it as a 9.8. So at the end of the day the sales comparison is way off.

 

I should run an add for my diamond-studded case where a comic without it sells for $20 but with my patented DES (Diamond Encrusted Slab) that same comic sells for $300,000. Too bad the case and diamond carat cost is also $300K.

And why is it so difficult for some people to see how illogical their reasoning is? Gas costs can be quantified. So can food costs, eBay fees, and convention costs. They can be quantifed about as much as CGC and shipping costs (CGC costs are certainly not the same for every book...so what should CGC do...be forced to post a price list in every add detailing all of their price levels). And since shipping expenses aren't a fixed cost for everyone, I guess CGC should also be forced to include shipping costs to and from Florida for every point on earth and for all the major carriers.

 

If you think people are too stupid to know that the CGC case isn't going to magically appear around their comic for free by clicking their ruby slippers together 3 times...then perhaps you really should spend your time convincing the tobacco industry to include additional warnings on their cigarettes...like "do not put lit end in mouth".

[Norrin_Radd]

NR, all you need is a little digital industrial laser caliper.. they are currenly used to measure the thickness of coatings applied to metal, wood etc. In fact, if you have the raw book, you can probably find a pair of manual measuring calipers that will do the job.

 

Red, that was funnier than your last 4 pictures combined.

Surely you were joking.

 

 

 

 

[fantastic_four]

Does your agnosticism prevent you from seeing that the collecting community is being swindled on a mass scale? We are all losing our ability to make an informed choice, and I don't care how doubtful you are about whether NDP books will revert, by allowing this to trend to go full hilt, we are all allowing ourselves to be mislead into believing books are deserving of their assigned grade, when in actual fact, they are being aesthetically altered for the sake of yielding higher and consistent profit returns. And investment risk aside, when an NDP books grade returns to its pre-pressed grade as a result of short-term improvement methods, I'm sure your feelings of doubt, as with many others, will quickly turn to anger.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about regarding my "doubt...about whether NDP books will revert." I never expressed that doubt. I really have no idea which pressing techniques revert and which don't, nor do I know how widespread pressing reversion is, and I can't remember voicing any opinions about that problem except that it's a bad thing. If you think this is a widespread phenomenon, what's the best way to combat it? I can only think of one way--to make professional pressing more widely available so that people aren't doing it wrong.

 

 

When you first emailed me about Matt Stanleys attempts at taking some eBayers and their hard-earned money for a ride, my first impression of you was of a person that would not settle for any sort of nonsense. What struck me most about your cyber-personality then was that it resembled one of a watch-dog. One that I admired over the years that I have been a member here, especially with your contributions in the area of restoration detection. In fact, in some ways I even encouraged it by sharing certain information I thought I was worth disseminating to like-minded individuals.

 

Whether this an error in judgement on my part, or a waning interest on yours, this recent bid of skepticism seems to be getting in the way of your past ability to excercise good judgement.

 

I haven't passed ANY judgement--that's why I'm agnostic. I'm sitting the fence by reserving judgement. Not passing judgement on issues which are controversial and not entirely clear isn't a "failure to exercise good judgement" when there is time to more fully explore those issues, and there is plenty of time to keep balancing the points on this issue. We've got the rest of our collecting lives to do it.

 

Stanley taking my money and not sending my comic was clear. Dupcak specifically representing comics as not having color touch or being trimmed and then selling books that DO have that work is clear. Comics with detectable NDP should be noted as such on the label. Comics with undetectable NDP should not (obviously, since you can't detect it). If some dealers are selectively getting NDP services from CGC when most of us can't, then this should stop.

 

What to do about undetectable pressing isn't so clear. I'm reserving judgement until CCS makes its announcement. If it is structured much like NCS, then is it a conflict of interest? Partially, yes. But given the reality of undetectable pressing, I'm not convinced yet that it's a bad thing.

[Tango 'n Cash]

And why is it so difficult for some people to see how illogical their reasoning is? Gas costs can be quantified. So can food costs

 

Wow, let me know where you live, as I would love to be able to budget these expenses based on 100% stable prices. It must be paradise.

[Tango 'n Cash]

You know Farkus, I really do not want to get into a big fight about this. I firmly believe that when a company is expounding the financial and profit-making features of its services in a print ad, that fee disclosure should also be included. It is required in some areas, but as CGC does not actually sell the books, I can see how the company is legally (if not ethically) exempt from including this information.

 

You think their ads are great and that fee disclosure in advertising is not an issue to you personally. But it is to me.

[THE_BEYONDER]

What I fear is being lost here is an even more important question.

HAS CGC ALREADY ENGAGED IN THE PRESSING OF BOOKS FOR SELECT CLIENTS,AND IF SO,UNDER EXACTLY WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES?

 

What if they have? Were CGC to reveal that they have been pressing books all along....would the " pressing is not restoration" crowd change their stance?

 

It has nothing to do with whether or not pressing is restoration Chris, but it has everything to do with CGC's ethics.

 

I realize this, but I also believe that the " is it or isn't it " argument remains a valid one. I'm sure CGC would love for all of us to accept their stance, but I refuse to. Pressing is restoration, and to believe otherwise is illogical IMHO.

 

Don't you want CGC to answer the question?

 

Of course I do. I was just wondering how people would react were CGC to answer "yes" to the question.

 

Don't you want the person that started this rumor to come forward with their story?

 

What I want...is CGC to come forward with their story. I'd like to believe that they care about the hobby, and that $$$ doesn't control them.

[burntboy]

And why is it so difficult for some people to see how illogical their reasoning is? Gas costs can be quantified. So can food costs, eBay fees, and convention costs. They can be quantifed about as much as CGC and shipping costs (CGC costs are certainly not the same for every book...so what should CGC do...be forced to post a price list in every add detailing all of their price levels). And since shipping expenses aren't a fixed cost for everyone, I guess CGC should also be forced to include shipping costs to and from Florida for every point on earth and for all the major carriers.

 

If you think people are too stupid to know that the CGC case isn't going to magically appear around their comic for free by clicking their ruby slippers together 3 times...then perhaps you really should spend your time convincing the tobacco industry to include additional warnings on their cigarettes...like "do not put lit end in mouth".

 

well, Farkus, my initial opinion of you (put here to stir things up) notwithstanding, that is a funny closing paragraph

[Farkus-migration]

And why is it so difficult for some people to see how illogical their reasoning is? Gas costs can be quantified. So can food costs

 

Wow, let me know where you live, as I would love to be able to budget these expenses based on 100% stable prices. It must be paradise.

Sure thing...just as soon as you tell us exactly how much it will cost to get a copy of Action #1 graded. Please, enlighten us. And I'd absolutely love to know what product or industry has 100% stable prices. If you think CGC does...then perhaps you haven't been around the graded comic industry very long, or maybe you just need to rethink how smart you think you really are.

[jbud73]

Thanks for that Chrisco - I wonder if we still have to have the debate over the extent to which NDP is currently occuring and the relative ease and lack of labor intensity required to perform the service. Its not like its 4 Free Masons who locked away the secret of how to get the Caramilk in the Caramilk bar For what I've heard and seen NDP is probably occuring with a significant portion of the dealer and collector/dealer community. I'm not saying majority, but my instincts tell me the people involved in doing it routinely would fill a fair sized room. This would include BSD's for certain as the profit margin for the books they deal with make the books listed in the example below look like peanuts. Consider the implications of the Church list Arty posted. If the Churchs are not safe is any book.

 

It also follows that collectors with enough slabs, especially new labels have pressed books in their collection - that would include me I'm sorry to say. Now I'm not going to sell of my entire slabbed collection so my hair doesnt go on fire. But I am also no longer under any illusions with respect to probability of NDP and certain dealers. When I put NDP + SCS + Multiples of OS for HG slabs = So FF I'm on the fence to and the % I will pay for a slabbed BA or SA in 9.4 or better has been cut by a huge margin over the last 4 mo. Needless to say I have not purchased one HG book that has already been slabbed. I can no longer justify the multiples necessary given the information I now possess.

 

 

I don't think CGC has been engaged in this activity, but it does occur. I made a comment about Reynold Jay yesterday that seems to have gone by the wayside. Check out this "sample order form" from RJ's site for his 'prep service':

 

 

Notice the line, "Printer's Crease in Cover - Can be pressed out".

 

So far, RJ is the only dealer that straight-up advertises this type of service. He's been advertising this since I've been back in the hobby (2-1/2 years), and maybe even prior to that.

[jbud73]

As for the marketing strategy of CGC. Is it misleading? Yes. Does it fail to completey inform the customer? Yes. Is that different than 99% of the marketing strategies out there? NO

 

As always ladies and gentlemen, you must read the fine print and consider the source.

[Farkus-migration]

You know Farkus, I really do not want to get into a big fight about this. I firmly believe that when a company is expounding the financial and profit-making features of its services in a print ad, that fee disclosure should also be included. It is required in some areas, but as CGC does not actually sell the books, I can see how the company is legally (if not ethically) exempt from including this information.

 

You think their ads are great and that fee disclosure in advertising is not an issue to you personally. But it is to me.

And I firmly believe that some of you are just gritching for gritchings sake. Their costs are clearly labeled on their website. They have a toll free number you can call with any questions. You also mentioned postage costs to and from CGC earlier...yet you ignored my reponse to that. Should CGC also include delivery costs to and from Florida, for all the major carriers and for every location on earth in their adds?

 

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go get a drink out of the toilet (since there's not a sign telling me not to).

[Tango 'n Cash]

Sure thing...just as soon as you tell us exactly how much it will cost to get a copy of Action #1 graded. Please, enlighten us

 

Now I understand the problem. You have never even seen one of these CGC raw vs. slabbed advertisements before.

[drbanner]

What I fear is being lost here is an even more important question.

HAS CGC ALREADY ENGAGED IN THE PRESSING OF BOOKS FOR SELECT CLIENTS,AND IF SO,UNDER EXACTLY WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES?

 

What if they have? Were CGC to reveal that they have been pressing books all along....would the " pressing is not restoration" crowd change their stance?

 

It has nothing to do with whether or not pressing is restoration Chris, but it has everything to do with CGC's ethics.

 

I realize this, but I also believe that the " is it or isn't it " argument remains a valid one.

 

Sure, but it has nothing to do with the original question above.

 

If there was something tangible to respond to (instead of rumors on the grapevine), CGC might be more apt to comment on it, which is why it would be nice if F_T's source comes clean. Unfortunately, it's just rumor-mongering at this point...perpetuated by those who have heard the rumor (like F_T, me, and you).

[Farkus-migration]

Sure thing...just as soon as you tell us exactly how much it will cost to get a copy of Action #1 graded. Please, enlighten us

 

Now I understand the problem. You have never even seen one of these CGC raw vs. slabbed advertisements before.

Sure I have. And I'm still waiting for your answer to my question.

 

Also wondering why you ignore many of the points I make showing why you're not making much sense...you know....like the following:

 

"I'd absolutely love to know what product or industry has 100% stable prices. If you think CGC does...then perhaps you haven't been around the graded comic industry very long, or maybe you just need to rethink how smart you think you really are."

[BassGMan]

 

What I want...is CGC to come forward with their story. I'd like to believe that they care about the hobby, and that $$$ doesn't control them.

 

Chris, isn't this really just the world we live in? Isn't most business in general more interested in their own financial well being than how SOME people view them as doing something unethical? We are hearing all the time how various companies pizz people off by certain controversial decisions they make. Can we expect CGC to be any different kind of business than any other out there? Or should the comic book industry have to follow some kind of moral guidelines that other businesses do not have to follow?

[Tango 'n Cash]

Okay, you are obviously a CGC shill who was sent in here to get all riled up and get us off the "pressing for dollars" angle.

 

In answer to your original question, I am not sure how long you have been here, but the CGC ads in Wizard have been ridiculed multiple times and are currently (?) in some sig-lines as well. These are the "joke ads" we refer to from time to time, and include only overpriced and overhyped Moderns in CGC 9.8 cases.

 

That is why the $15 was used in the description, the 9.8 in the grade, and the $100 as a sale price, which is a long way from an Action #1. If these ads were Silver/Gold based (CBC may have some like this), then no one would have a problem with them, although the prices would nearly be equal for NM copies and not hype up the young 'uns.

 

Go buy a Wizard, or better yet look up some previous threads on Wizard ads or postings, and then come back a bit more informed. Thanks.