Answer from CGC.........

[Mushroom]

Just thought that I would revisit this gem of a quote from Steve B on 11/08/04

 

"The only reason that restoration is a dirty word in OUR hobby is that for many years the restoration was NOT DISCLOSED by the seller(s) and that meant collector's were paying the 9.4 price for a restored 9.4. Later, when the collector went to sell it thinking that it was a 9.4, they realized they were ripped of and either left the hobby or decided TO NOT BUY ANYTHING RESTORED AGAIN.

 

IT WAS THE SELLERS FAULT NOT THE RESTORERS, unless of course, the restorer never told the collector the book was restored and then sold the client the book. I have seen that happen many times (BTW...not by Susan)"

 

Look 5 years down the track and will this be the same quote but with restoration replaced by pressing.

 

Please tell us that CGC will disclose pressing when they know it.....

[FFB]

Pressing ain't cheap either, you know. And I'm not sure how or if you intended this last paragraph to support the notion that pressing will swell the high end of the census, but I see it as supporting the opposite argument.

 

Scott, you're telling me for a high-touting lawyer at a major firm like yourself that Tracey Heft's $20 fee is not cheap? Even the newbies can afford it!

 

I was referring to Matt Nelson's rates.

[Tango 'n Cash]

Answer the question. Where are the spikes? I am not talking pre-CGC. I am talking about during the five years in which CGC has been in business now.

 

Answer what question? 5 years is hardly enough time to make any judgements regarding trends. The next decade will tell the tale, either way.

[jbud73]

WHY IS EVERYONE JUST TALKING ABOUT PRESSING?! I could care less about pressing in this particular issue. CGC have already said they won't PLOD non-disassembled pressed books. Therefore, when it comes to pressing, Chris brings no advantage over Matt Nelson, or Susan Ciccone, or other practicioners out there who have been successfully pressing books all along and getting blue labels.

 

Am I just being overly paranoid by focusing more on the one area where Chris has a clear advantage over everyone else: knowing CGC's methods for detecting PLOD-type restoration and knowing how to circumvent those detection methods, or coming up with new undetectable methods? People can worry all they want about pressing, but the number of books that can be significantly improved by pressing is probably relatively small, particularly when you talk about ultra-HG books.

 

However, if you could do "real" restoration on books that would still get a blue label, THAT, ladies and gentlemen, would be the Mother Lode!

 

Tim I touched on this point in my lengthy diatribe and few posts back where I said that NDP is just one form of "alteration" (for those who do not consider it resto, this word is neutral enough I believe) - and I couldn't agree with you more. NDP may very well be the tip of the iceberg, I always refer to the Batman 11, sure its one book, but its very telling as to the mentality. The thousands of dollars now realized across a far broader spectrum of books since the advent and I would argue spurred on by CGC will bring every under handed tactic to the fore.

 

Scot and while I agree with your point of "where's the spike" I also think that outside the box we must ask ourselves - "Why is this venture being undertaken?" I would think that CCG and Chris believe that there is money to be made. From this I would posit that we will see an upward mobility of books on the census, as new books and new and improved books enter the system.

 

What effect will this have on the market place I guess the effect is different based on your starting point. Marc's probably a tad more concerned than say I am because he buys 10,000 books and up, while I buy $500 books and up. But then again maybe he is more insulated than I am, as the books he buys are rarer - that is there are far fewer copies of Green Lantern #1 (GA) then there are Hero for Hire #1 (BA) to be improved upon..

 

From an ethical stand point it reeks of a cash grab and at minimum should cause the average informed person to question the credibility and motive's of the parent company (CCG) of the company (CGC) that is supposed to be the bastion of integrity in this hobby.

 

Still Tim I couldn't agree more - the very perception of impropriety causes me to wonder, what else can Friesen cook up in his little shop of horrors that can alter the book and still garner a blue label. With thousands on the table I seriously doubt that people aren't thinking of ways to do it outside CGC, it would surely seem plausible that the wheels are in motion inside the camp ground now.

[awe4one]

Answer the question. Where are the spikes? I am not talking pre-CGC. I am talking about during the five years in which CGC has been in business now.

 

Actually the spike has been going on the whole time. Go back and read some of the first crash threads and collectors/dealers, some who should know what they're talking about, swore there were a very limited number of late silver-Bronze HG (9.4 and higher) comics out there. Three years on we see they were very wrong. A year and half ago we started seeing more than average increases in these higher grades and part of this is due to pressed comics in my opinion.

 

Jim

[FFB]

Answer the question. Where are the spikes? I am not talking pre-CGC. I am talking about during the five years in which CGC has been in business now.

 

Actually the spike has been going on the whole time. Go back and read some of the first crash threads and collectors/dealers, some who should know what they're talking about, swore there were a very limited number of late silver-Bronze HG (9.4 and higher) comics out there. Three years on we see they were very wrong. A year and half ago we started seeing more than average increases in these higher grades and part of this is due to pressed comics in my opinion.

 

Jim

 

I would guess that the huge number of late 60s early 70s books in high grade has more to do with several dealers and collectors hoarding issues back then and the several warehouse finds than it does with pressing. Anyone who said that late silver or early bronze books were scarce in 9.4 or better was living a pipe dream.

[awe4one]

You all are getting wrapped up in what pressing is and it's effect on the hobby. While a worthy subject, the real subject here is the apparent lack of influence CGC (according to them) has on their operations in regards to the overall health of the hobby. This whole episode reeks of backdoor agreements and shady dealings...

 

- What exact counsel did Steve give the CCG higher up in regards to the decision and it's effect on the hobby?

 

- We aren't naive...having Friesen down the hall pressing away doesn't negate both the conflict of interest or our belief that both sides won't interact.

 

- This whole invitation letter to announce the service to a select few customers/dealers(?) suggets elitism in regards to their product and suggested preference that shouldn't exist in a company where impartiality is evidently the watchword. When are you going to announce this to CBG, Newsarama, and other comic outlets? Collectors who use CGC should be aware of these actions...

 

- The impression now is CGC or CCG if you prefer (I don't think it's going to make much of a difference in court once they find out about Friesen's new office space) is manipulating the market instead of providing a service. There is something inherently illegal there...

 

Jim

[awe4one]

I would guess that the huge number of late 60s early 70s books in high grade has more to do with several dealers and collectors hoarding issues back then and the several warehouse finds than it does with pressing. Anyone who said that late silver or early bronze books were scarce in 9.4 or better was living a pipe dream.

 

Agreed...but then again, normal collections entering the market doesn't explain on it's own the rash of 9.6 and higher copies that started around a year and a half ago. Pressing had some effect I'm sure...what effect is the question neither of us can answer definitively...

 

Jim

[FFB]

I would guess that the huge number of late 60s early 70s books in high grade has more to do with several dealers and collectors hoarding issues back then and the several warehouse finds than it does with pressing. Anyone who said that late silver or early bronze books were scarce in 9.4 or better was living a pipe dream.

 

Agreed...but then again, normal collections entering the market doesn't explain on it's own the rash of 9.6 and higher copies that started around a year and a half ago. Pressing had some effect I'm sure...what effect is the question neither of us can answer definitively...

 

Jim

 

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you that pressing certainly isn't helping matters with respect to the census. I just don't subscribe to the theory that any old 9.2 is a pressing candidate, or even that a significant amount of them are. I believe it is the rare 9.2 or lower that can be pressed to 9.6. 9.4 is a little easier because you can get a 9.4 with some minor color-breaking wear, but not much.

 

Opening this one up to the floor for people who think pressing 9.2s into 9.6s is easy: just for a fun exercise, go through your raw books and find some 8.5-9.2s that you think could be pressed up to a 9.6. The number will be a lot lower than you might suspect, because pretty much anything that breaks color will disqualify the book.

[awe4one]

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you that pressing certainly isn't helping matters with respect to the census. I just don't subscribe to the theory that any old 9.2 is a pressing candidate, or even that a significant amount of them are. I believe it is the rare 9.2 or lower that can be pressed to 9.6. 9.4 is a little easier because you can get a 9.4 with some minor color-breaking wear, but not much.

 

I agree that a majority of comics won't benefit from pressing. But those that can will be found and pressed for your pleasure. That will skew the HG market...

 

And I think this comic would benefit greatly from pressing...

 

 

Jim

[nearmint]

There is something inherently illegal there...

 

Yikes. Now we've jumped from unethical to illegal. Exactly what laws are they breaking?

[awe4one]

There is something inherently illegal there...

 

Yikes. Now we've jumped from unethical to illegal. Exactly what laws are they breaking?

 

If CGC is found to be manipulating the market they can be held liable in court similar to cases that occurred in cards and coins...

 

Jim

[nearmint]

There is something inherently illegal there...

 

Yikes. Now we've jumped from unethical to illegal. Exactly what laws are they breaking?

 

If CGC is found to be manipulating the market they can be held liable in court similar to cases that occurred in cards and coins...

 

Jim

 

An announcement is going to be made that CCG is going to offer a pressing service. It seems to be public knowledge that Chris' office is right down the hall from Steve's.

 

Seems like a bad idea, but they're admitting it openly. Where's the manipulation?

 

Do I think the graders are familiar with a lot of the high end books that come into the office? Sure. Do I think it matters whether the book came from down the hall, or from Matt Nelson? No. Why? Because it's irrelevant whether the book has been pressed or not. CGC does not consider NDP to be resto, and we all know that.

[SignatureSelect]

I think you guys are over reacting. Don't get on steve's back It is not his fault Chris is quiting. And having a restoration company under the ccg umbrella is a good thing. In fact I have had customers asking for this service for years. Personally as a comic restoration aficionado myself I would love this and would also apply for a job their. everybody should realize that a true professional would tell a client if a book was not worth restoring and I am pretty sure the people at cgc are professional. Besides most people only professionally restore low/mid grade silver age and older. Any newer books are usually done by amatuers

[FFB]

I can't tell what's wrong with it aside from the spine stress, spine corner dings, and upper right corner, but if that's the wear you think you could get rid of with a press job, I think you would be both surprised and disappointed.

 

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you that pressing certainly isn't helping matters with respect to the census. I just don't subscribe to the theory that any old 9.2 is a pressing candidate, or even that a significant amount of them are. I believe it is the rare 9.2 or lower that can be pressed to 9.6. 9.4 is a little easier because you can get a 9.4 with some minor color-breaking wear, but not much.

 

I agree that a majority of comics won't benefit from pressing. But those that can will be found and pressed for your pleasure. That will skew the HG market...

 

And I think this comic would benefit greatly from pressing...

 

 

Jim

[Red Hook]

Do I think the graders are familiar with a lot of the high end books that come into the office? Sure. Do I think it matters whether the book came from down the hall, or from Matt Nelson? No. Why? Because it's irrelevant whether the book has been pressed or not. CGC does not consider NDP to be resto, and we all know that.

 

And now we know why CGC has taken that stance on pressing....because the cash is going to come rolling in as they themselves do the pressing. I don't think you can consider CGC a disinterested impartial participant in this charade. Their public stance on pressing has been permanantly invalidated.

 

I'm with Tim. These long-winded discussions about the census, or whether or not the technology will ever exist to detect pressing, are just red herrings.

 

This is about CGC selling out. Personally, from what I know, the sellout has been in progress for a long time.

 

It's been about the money from the start and it will only be about the money lining CGC's pockets and those of their hand-picked consortium of dealers who are in collusion on this.

 

This doesn't have anything to do with the health of the hobby, or the preservation of the books. Talk about that has long since evaporated, did you notice.

 

If you tell me there is one remaining unpressed book out there, I would still take a stance against pressing. It's artificial manipulation of the market and the suckers are US!

 

Finally, I will ask the question I have asked over and over and over.....and I will direct it to Steve Borock.....

 

For the hundredth time......

 

If you truly believe there is nothing wrong with professional pressing, then why are you going about this covertly? If you think that the majority of collectors don't care a whit, then why are you doing this covertly? Why won't dealers admit to it? And why do I know we will never ever hear anyone admit to using Chris' services?

 

Sorry Steve, you may think you have deniability, but I don't. I am very disappointed. Very.

 

Brad Hamann

 

PS: Please edit out the words "trust" and "impartial" from the CGC mission statement on your website. They're pretty hollow words now and they really grate on me right at the moment.

 

 

 

 

 

And finally, for you guys out there who still think dealers like Ewert are just better than everyone else at cherry picking longboxes.......I've got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn I want to talk to you about. At least if you're paying big bucks for pressed books, you should have the right to know it, and who did the work. Okay, now go back to sleep. Didn't mean to wake you.

[jbud73]

Do I think the graders are familiar with a lot of the high end books that come into the office? Sure. Do I think it matters whether the book came from down the hall, or from Matt Nelson? No. Why? Because it's irrelevant whether the book has been pressed or not. CGC does not consider NDP to be resto, and we all know that.

 

And now we know why CGC has taken that stance on pressing....because the cash is going to come rolling in as they themselves do the pressing. I don't think you can consider CGC a disinterested impartial participant in this charade. Their public stance on pressing has been permanantly invalidated.

 

I'm with Tim. These long-winded discussions about the census, or whether or not the technology will ever exist to detect pressing, are just red herrings.

 

This is about CGC selling out. Personally, from what I know, the sellout has been in progress for a long time.

 

It's been about the money from the start and it will only be about the money lining CGC's pockets and those of their hand-picked consortium of dealers who are in collusion on this.

 

This doesn't have anything to do with the health of the hobby, or the preservation of the books. Talk about that has long since evaporated, did you notice.

 

If you tell me there is one remaining unpressed book out there, I would still take a stance against pressing. It's artificial manipulation of the market and the suckers are US!

 

Finally, I will ask the question I have asked over and over and over.....and I will direct it to Steve Borock.....

 

For the hundredth time......

 

If you truly believe there is nothing wrong with professional pressing, then why are you going about this covertly? If you think that the majority of collectors don't care a whit, then why are you doing this covertly? Why won't dealers admit to it? And why do I know we will never ever hear anyone admit to using Chris' services?

 

Sorry Steve, you may think you have deniability, but I don't. I am very disappointed. Very.

 

Brad Hamann

 

PS: Please edit out the words "trust" and "impartial" from the CGC mission statement on your website. They're pretty hollow words now and they really grate on me right at the moment.

 

 

 

 

 

And finally, for you guys out there who still think dealers like Ewert are just better than everyone else at cherry picking longboxes.......I've got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn I want to talk to you about. At least if you're paying big bucks for pressed books, you should have the right to know it, and who did the work. Okay, now go back to sleep. Didn't mean to wake you.

 

Ya after all the BS is thrown out as to whether it is or isn't resto along with the who did what to which book - I am still left with the sentiment expressed by Brad.

[awe4one]

I can't tell what's wrong with it aside from the spine stress, spine corner dings, and upper right corner, but if that's the wear you think you could get rid of with a press job, I think you would be both surprised and disappointed.

 

2 non-color breaking creases just above the top staple on spine (admitedly hard to see on scan). They can be pressed out very nicely and could up the comic at least 2 grades...

 

Jim

[awe4one]

If you truly believe there is nothing wrong with professional pressing, then why are you going about this covertly? If you think that the majority of collectors don't care a whit, then why are you doing this covertly? Why won't dealers admit to it? And why do I know we will never ever hear anyone admit to using Chris' services?

 

Amen...the way they're going about this smells to high heaven...

 

Jim

[tth2]

Opening this one up to the floor for people who think pressing 9.2s into 9.6s is easy: just for a fun exercise, go through your raw books and find some 8.5-9.2s that you think could be pressed up to a 9.6. The number will be a lot lower than you might suspect, because pretty much anything that breaks color will disqualify the book.

I think people who think 8.5s and 9.2s are easily pressed into 9.6s are out of their gourds, for the reasons you state. There are usually sufficient color-breaking creases and stressmarks in a 8.5 or 9.2 book to ever prevent it from becoming a 9.6, even if all the non-color breaking creases get pressed out.

 

However, there is one category of book that lends itself to pressing and where big gains in grade can be obtained. Namely, books where the color-breaking creases/stress occur where there is no color to be broken (e.g., back covers, books with white covers and books with nice fat white miswraps).

 

But again, this thread keeps turning into another pressing thread, and the issue here is so much more than pressing. It's about undetectable restoration and CCG being willing to compromise CGC's greatest asset, its trustworthiness, for a few extra dollars.