Answer from CGC.........

[garthgantu]

 

So... no solution?

 

Scott:

 

Isn't the idea of simply disclosing pressed books on the label a solution? if CGC doesn't consider NDP to be a negative in any way, why not simply disclose those books that Friesen has worked on and that make their way directly to CGC to be pressed? The idea that those submitting their books to Friesen for work are then going to have them shipped back to the submitter so that submitter can then ship them BACK to Fla. for encapsulation is laughable - that's not going to happen.

 

So why not just note on the label "professionally pressed by C. Friesen." Then those of us who have concerns about pressing can factor this information into our purchasing decision, and those who have no such concerns can ignore that notation on the label.

 

Seems like a solution to me...?

[garthgantu]

Ooops - just saw your later point about how that would drive pressing customers to other sources. Valid point.

 

Of course, the fact that those seeking pressing services would shun the 'legit' pressing service available under CGC's roof in order to avoid detection and the "pressed" notation on the CGC label certainly suggests that even those paying for pressing recognize it as having a major stigma associated with it...

[jbud73]

Holy [#@$%!!!], didn't we kill this thread yesterday?

 

This subject will be debated for years in my opinion...has comic resto ever not been debated on this Forum?

 

Jim

 

Well, sure, resto has, but we're talking about pressing.

 

 

And we can go back to that one too. Removing defects from the book that were, or would have caused it to be down graded is, to my mind restoring it to its original state.

[FFB]

Holy [#@$%!!!], didn't we kill this thread yesterday?

 

This subject will be debated for years in my opinion...has comic resto ever not been debated on this Forum?

 

Jim

 

Well, sure, resto has, but we're talking about pressing.

 

 

And we can go back to that one too. Removing defects from the book that were, or would have caused it to be down graded is, to my mind restoring it to its original state.

 

No, you'd have to plant the book and get it to sprout leaves to return it to its original state.

 

ANNNNNND the conversation take a turn for the surreal!

[jbud73]

Holy [#@$%!!!], didn't we kill this thread yesterday?

 

This subject will be debated for years in my opinion...has comic resto ever not been debated on this Forum?

 

Jim

 

Well, sure, resto has, but we're talking about pressing.

 

 

And we can go back to that one too. Removing defects from the book that were, or would have caused it to be down graded is, to my mind restoring it to its original state.

 

No, you'd have to plant the book and get it to sprout leaves to return it to its original state.

 

ANNNNNND the conversation take a turn for the surreal!

 

[awe4one]

ANNNNNND the conversation take a turn for the surreal!

 

Most of your posts in this thread have been surreal...

 

Jim

[FFB]

ANNNNNND the conversation take a turn for the surreal!

 

Most of your posts in this thread have been surreal...

 

Jim

 

[Aman619]

and you should recuse yourself at this point FFB since you no longer collect HG slabs anyway, right?

 

What's the matter, Aman? Not liking the fact that there's someone who isn't sitting here telling you how great your silly anti-pressing posts are?

 

And what difference does slabbed vs. unslabbed make, smarty pants? You think they're pressing books while in the slabs? Or that every book that's pressed is immediately sealed in a slab?

 

first of all, if I were here night after night waiting for someone to tell me how much they like my posts Id a been gone long ago. And silly posts? You know, for a guy who just got here a year ago and was a breath of fresh air with his enthusiastic 100 posts a day, I gotta tell ya that as you moved nearer and nearer to the top post total, youve gotten nastier and nastier and less tolerant of others views. Havent you noticed that? Or are the rest of us just soundling "sillier and sillier" in comparison to your own opinions?

 

Spare me the wounded victim routine, Aman. You were the one who started with the smartass attack. If you don't like getting them back, perhaps you should have stayed on topic.

 

what smartass attack are you talking about?

[skybolt]

 

I personally don't find anything wrong with asking a seller if the book had been pressed, regardless of whether the book is raw or slabbed, and would treat this form questioning in the same manner as I would by asking the seller if there are any ripped pages, missing stamps, ink marks, etc. A cover scan/photo on auction often doesn't properly indicate the level of wear and tear, and some of the defects listed above are as transparent from a front/rear cover inspection as NDP. IMO, if the seller fails to reveal this information, and I have written proof in the form of an email message that they deny any such improvement and later discover either through reverting or telltale signs that the book was pressed, then I've been mislead.

 

The only problem I see with this statement is whether or not the seller had the book pressed themselves. Otherwise, if the book was originally purchased from a major dealer and pressing was not disclosed, then how can the seller be called dishonest? I hate having the feeling of being all alone out there if I'm trying to sell my slabbed collection years down the line. At least with other restoration work, I can always refer to CGC's expert detection system that the book is unrestored. With pressing, it's all a guessing game since it's undetectable.

 

For instance, if I'm trying to sell 100 slabbed books, and someone finds out that one of my Pedigree copies jumped up in grade due to pressing 3 years (without my knowledge), then my entire collection becomes suspect. Anyone who dislikes pressing (me included) will have a hard time trusting my word after that incident, and will likely stay away from the auction. Without CGC or anyone else to back me up, I'm dead in the water.

 

Also, what if a major dealer comes out and says that they've been pressing books for the past 10 years. Prospective buyers would be asking whether I purchased any of their books. If my answer is yes to 30% of the slabbed collection I'm selling, then each of those books will be given the stigma of being pressed. Never mind that maybe only 2 or 3 of the books were actually pressed. This would be a solid case of being assumed guilty until proven innocent. Except, no one can prove I'm innocent since no one can detect pressing, while the dealer has no recollection or records of which books were being pressed.

[Aman619]

thats just it in a nutshell...from here on out ALL of our books will have the raised potential of having been pressed into the shape they are now in. I suppose its an Invasion of the Body Snatchers situation where the only solution is to keep moving forward UNTIL every book becomes improved like a pod person. Then there wont be any conflict or stigma to being one or having been pressed.

 

This is so stupid... for a few dollars, CGC is willing to risk their impartiality and trustworthiness. So shortsighted and stupid. For shame Steve!!! Feh!

[bobel]

If you can't see how ethically challanged it is sponsor both a grading/restoration detection company and a company that provides undetectable restoration services you are pressing books or have been buffaloed by someone who has a vested interest in the practice. CGC isn't the problem it's the Parent sponsor. How much legitimacy can they possiblly provide with those kinds of biz practices

Collector's group sponsors cleaning and pressing company, collector's group name gives CGC legitimacy...is it legitamacy or illegitamacy they give?

 

I wonder if this move had happened 3 months after CGC started what you all would say? Something like how can a company lend cgc legitamacy if it sponsors a company doing undetectable restoration? My feeling is your judgement is colored by the number of slabs you already own. I wonder if the pill is too bitter and the goose will start laying leaden eggs? Why buy a 9.6 when you can hunt down a nice 9.0 or 9.2 and get non color breaking lines pressed out. Is your 9.6-9.8 one that was exceptionally wellcared for or exceptionally well rpessed? Is your F plus copy of FF 17 one that was decently cared for or one that was vg and had it's spine roll removed? Doesn't matter to the Collector's society.

 

I know i have pressed books. They are books that have all the color breaking lines I'd expect from Early SA books with spine roll but they lay as flat as a newstand copy. It isnt't rocket science to see how much better pressing made the books appear or realize they couldnt of gotten the cover wear they have and still lay as flat as they do w/o ahving been pressed.

I think the Collector's group got greedy and wanted a peice of the pressing pie and might of miscalculated and made a niche for a legitimate grading company w/o conflicting interests.

Cgc should just announce 'We do not consider professional quality cleaning and pressing to be restoration" the biz practices of their "sponsor" says it already. I'd rather not have pressed books but think continueing to pretend it's a case of undetectability being the issue is just BS and punishes those who wont have books pressed because they have integrity.

[FFB]

thats just it in a nutshell...from here on out ALL of our books will have the raised potential of having been pressed into the shape they are now in. I suppose its an Invasion of the Body Snatchers situation where the only solution is to keep moving forward UNTIL every book becomes improved like a pod person. Then there wont be any conflict or stigma to being one or having been pressed.

 

This is so stupid... for a few dollars, CGC is willing to risk their impartiality and trustworthiness. So shortsighted and stupid. For shame Steve!!! Feh!

 

At last we come full circle. As I said in my first comment on this topic, the solution to the pressing problem is the same as the solution to the steroid problem in sports -- press every book whether it needs it or not.

 

As for CGC, pressing was going on before CGC got here and it was going on before Friesen decided to start this company. It would have continued even if Friesen were not starting his company. All that CCG is doing now is trying to capture some of the pressing dollars that would be going elsewhere. Because CGC had already decided not to tag pressed books with the purple label, the effect on consumers is the same whether Friesen enters this business or not. People were still going to press books and Friesen is far from the only game in town.

[goldust40]

thats just it in a nutshell...from here on out ALL of our books will have the raised potential of having been pressed into the shape they are now in. I suppose its an Invasion of the Body Snatchers situation where the only solution is to keep moving forward UNTIL every book becomes improved like a pod person. Then there wont be any conflict or stigma to being one or having been pressed.

 

This is so stupid... for a few dollars, CGC is willing to risk their impartiality and trustworthiness. So shortsighted and stupid. For shame Steve!!! Feh!

 

At last we come full circle. As I said in my first comment on this topic, the solution to the pressing problem is the same as the solution to the steroid problem in sports -- press every book whether it needs it or not.

 

As for CGC, pressing was going on before CGC got here and it was going on before Friesen decided to start this company. It would have continued even if Friesen were not starting his company. All that CCG is doing now is trying to capture some of the pressing dollars that would be going elsewhere. Because CGC had already decided not to tag pressed books with the purple label, the effect on consumers is the same whether Friesen enters this business or not. People were still going to press books and Friesen is far from the only game in town.

 

So in other words what the hell, what difference does it make.

 

The difference is CGC doing it. They didn't have to join in.

[FFB]

thats just it in a nutshell...from here on out ALL of our books will have the raised potential of having been pressed into the shape they are now in. I suppose its an Invasion of the Body Snatchers situation where the only solution is to keep moving forward UNTIL every book becomes improved like a pod person. Then there wont be any conflict or stigma to being one or having been pressed.

 

This is so stupid... for a few dollars, CGC is willing to risk their impartiality and trustworthiness. So shortsighted and stupid. For shame Steve!!! Feh!

 

At last we come full circle. As I said in my first comment on this topic, the solution to the pressing problem is the same as the solution to the steroid problem in sports -- press every book whether it needs it or not.

 

As for CGC, pressing was going on before CGC got here and it was going on before Friesen decided to start this company. It would have continued even if Friesen were not starting his company. All that CCG is doing now is trying to capture some of the pressing dollars that would be going elsewhere. Because CGC had already decided not to tag pressed books with the purple label, the effect on consumers is the same whether Friesen enters this business or not. People were still going to press books and Friesen is far from the only game in town.

 

So in other words what the hell, what difference does it make.

 

The difference is CGC doing it. They didn't have to join in.

 

If their joining in doesn't make a difference, then we're back to the original point -- who cares?

[goldust40]

thats just it in a nutshell...from here on out ALL of our books will have the raised potential of having been pressed into the shape they are now in. I suppose its an Invasion of the Body Snatchers situation where the only solution is to keep moving forward UNTIL every book becomes improved like a pod person. Then there wont be any conflict or stigma to being one or having been pressed.

 

This is so stupid... for a few dollars, CGC is willing to risk their impartiality and trustworthiness. So shortsighted and stupid. For shame Steve!!! Feh!

 

At last we come full circle. As I said in my first comment on this topic, the solution to the pressing problem is the same as the solution to the steroid problem in sports -- press every book whether it needs it or not.

 

As for CGC, pressing was going on before CGC got here and it was going on before Friesen decided to start this company. It would have continued even if Friesen were not starting his company. All that CCG is doing now is trying to capture some of the pressing dollars that would be going elsewhere. Because CGC had already decided not to tag pressed books with the purple label, the effect on consumers is the same whether Friesen enters this business or not. People were still going to press books and Friesen is far from the only game in town.

 

So in other words what the hell, what difference does it make.

 

The difference is CGC doing it. They didn't have to join in.

 

If their joining in doesn't make a difference, then we're back to the original point -- who cares?

 

I do.

 

CGC's remit was to be the standard bearers of grading and restoration detection, and the guarantor against deceitful and sharp practices that had been infesting the hobby since books started selling for premiums.

 

They have been good for the hobby. We thought they cared. We also thought they cared about what we had to say regarding their business. Not as consultants, obviously, but as the sounding boards of the hobby - the grass roots, the enthusiasts.

 

Which is what Steve was part of, lest he, and we, forget.

 

I admit I'm being a little ironic here, as I tacitly admit that you are, of course, correct. No-one cares. And CGC is just a business.

 

Deep down the air here is one of disillusionment. All the naysayers thought their hobby was different. It isn't.

 

And I repeat, just because other people have found loopholes in CGC's encapsulation process doesn't make joining in right.

[nearmint]

So why not just note on the label "professionally pressed by C. Friesen." Then those of us who have concerns about pressing can factor this information into our purchasing decision, and those who have no such concerns can ignore that notation on the label.

 

Garth, it seems to me that a lot of the arguments made by the anti-pressing crowd stem from a concern for newbies to the hobby, or at least those not privy to the pressing controversy.

 

Let's say CGC DID note pressing when they knew it had occurred. Wouldn't that, in effect, give a blanket reprieve to all slabbed books without the notation, at least in eyes of those less aware of the controversy?

[awe4one]

As for CGC, pressing was going on before CGC got here and it was going on before Friesen decided to start this company. It would have continued even if Friesen were not starting his company. All that CCG is doing now is trying to capture some of the pressing dollars that would be going elsewhere.

 

Cut and dried...Official grading and restoration companies shouldn't be working under the same umbrella due to conflict of interest questions.

 

What's more important? Keeping your grading company's integrity, it's most important attribute, unquestioned? Or finance a pressing service that immediately cast a cloud over said successful grading company and seriously compromises their integrity?

 

Going after the money isn't always the best option...

 

Jim

[FFB]

I do.

 

CGC's remit was to be the standard bearers of grading and restoration detection, and the guarantor against deceitful and sharp practices that had been infesting the hobby since books started selling for premiums.

 

They have been good for the hobby. We thought they cared. We also thought they cared about what we had to say regarding their business. Not as consultants, obviously, but as the sounding boards of the hobby - the grass roots, the enthusiasts.

 

Which is what Steve was part of, lest he, and we, forget.

 

I admit I'm being a little ironic here, as I tacitly admit that you are, of course, correct. No-one cares. And CGC is just a business.

 

Deep down the air here is one of disillusionment. All the naysayers thought their hobby was different. It isn't.

 

And I repeat, just because other people have found loopholes in CGC's encapsulation process doesn't make joining in right.

 

Andy,

 

The moralist in me agrees with you 100%.

 

The realist in me says "OK, but now what?"

 

In the end, it comes down to one of two choices, if professional pressing is in most cases truly undetectable and is going to continue to occur: (a) leave the hobby in digust, or (b) accept that pressing is a part of the hobby and try to enjoy the hobby anyway. I like collecting comics, so I choose (b).

 

If you read my initial posts on pressing from months ago, I was saying a lot of the same things that many of you are. As I have spent more and more time thinking about it, I have resigned myself to the belief that pressing is here to stay, that it is in most cases undetectable if done right, and ultimately, it is just not worth worrying about since there doesn't seem to be anything that can be done about it.

 

I firmly believe that pressing is a form of restoration, just like I firmly believe that dry cleaning is a form of restoration. (And dry cleaning is easier to detect, by the way, so where is the outcry about dry cleaning?) I think it is disingenuous to claim that pressing and dry cleaning are not restoration. But compared to the more invasive forms of restoration, both pressing and dry cleaning are minimally intrusive and do no harm to the books when done correctly. If controlled, professional pressing harmed paper, it would not be in widespread use by conservators of all types of paper artifacts. The fact is, every paper conservator in and out of the comic industry presses paper artifacts in the course of treating those artifacts. It is a safe procedure when done correctly. I am convinced of that. I do not believe that any trained conservator would tell you otherwise.

 

Should it be disclosed? Yes. Will it be? No, in most cases, and there is no way to police this other than with before and after scans of slabbed books (which won't help us in 99.9% of the cases of pressing that have occurred). So at the end of the day, after all of the talk, we are back to the two choices I mentioned above.

[FFB]

As for CGC, pressing was going on before CGC got here and it was going on before Friesen decided to start this company. It would have continued even if Friesen were not starting his company. All that CCG is doing now is trying to capture some of the pressing dollars that would be going elsewhere.

 

Cut and dried...Official grading and restoration companies shouldn't be working under the same umbrella due to conflict of interest questions.

 

What's more important? Keeping your grading company's integrity, it's most important attribute, unquestioned? Or finance a pressing service that immediately cast a cloud over said successful grading company and seriously compromises their integrity?

 

Going after the money isn't always the best option...

 

Jim

 

Jim,

 

I hope you don't read what I wrote as a wholesale approval of CCG sponsoring Friesen's venture. As I said before when the topic originally came up, I think that tying the two companies together is a bad idea and does present a conflict of interest.

 

I have no objection to Friesen starting his own company outside of the CCG umbrella. If people are going to press books (and they ARE going to press books) I would prefer that the treatment be done by someone who is trained and well-versed in the process so that the books are not harmed.

[Aman619]

At last we come full circle. As I said in my first comment on this topic, the solution to the pressing problem is the same as the solution to the steroid problem in sports -- press every book whether it needs it or not.

 

no. Steroids are detectable. NDP pressing is not (apparently).

Sports authorities can catch the users with mandatory testing, and keep increasing the scope of th etests to catch up with each new variation of undetectable steraoids that conmes along. SO theres no need to GIVE IN as you seem to foster for comics collecting.

 

all that aside, the biggest thing wrong here on this issue is CGC getting into bed with the pressers. As I keep saying (and others too) For WHAT??? IF CGC really needs the few thousand buck more each year Friesen will bring in, theyre in far worse shape than any of us thought. Many people (like you) will look the other way and roll with the punches etc.... but its a bad move long term for CGC. Its an unnecessary gamble with their reputation...that, I guess we should have expected.

 

So lets all turn the other cheek and prepare for the next assault from the nickel and dimers at CGC who were gonna clean up the industry and make it "safe" for collectors to FINALLY know just exactly what they were buying when laying out money for comics.

 

My solution therefore is to HAMPER NDP not have CGC themselves jump on the bandwagon. Since its always been around, fine, but dont make the situation worse by having the "police" start "breaking the law" too just like the "bad guys" (Dupcaks) they were self-appointed to catch in order to make us safer.. My solution is for CGC to divest themselves from Friesen and all other rewstoration businesses except detection.... not seek to profit from it or look the other way.