Answer from CGC.........

[skybolt]

 

I personally don't find anything wrong with asking a seller if the book had been pressed, regardless of whether the book is raw or slabbed, and would treat this form questioning in the same manner as I would by asking the seller if there are any ripped pages, missing stamps, ink marks, etc. A cover scan/photo on auction often doesn't properly indicate the level of wear and tear, and some of the defects listed above are as transparent from a front/rear cover inspection as NDP. IMO, if the seller fails to reveal this information, and I have written proof in the form of an email message that they deny any such improvement and later discover either through reverting or telltale signs that the book was pressed, then I've been mislead.

 

The only problem I see with this statement is whether or not the seller had the book pressed themselves. Otherwise, if the book was originally purchased from a major dealer and pressing was not disclosed, then how can the seller be called dishonest? I hate having the feeling of being all alone out there if I'm trying to sell my slabbed collection years down the line. At least with other restoration work, I can always refer to CGC's expert detection system that the book is unrestored. With pressing, it's all a guessing game since it's undetectable.

 

With all due respect skybolt, yours is a classic cop-out statement! Not one I'm surprised in finding in this line of discussion, because this is the exact same rhetoric and b.s. that plagued the hobby before CGC was around, where sellers had when passing off restored books claiming they just didn't know better. Right!

 

Why should this hit-and-miss approach to selling off books where sellers are unable to detect any NDP work being performed on them be tolerated? Are you comfortable with a seller passing the blame on to the person they originally bought the book from? Personally, I couldn't give rats-[#@$%!!!] -- I just want my money back in full. And if the seller is NOT able to detect certain things like NDP and conversely self-proclaims him/herself unable to disclose that at the time of the sale, then they ought not get into the business of buying and selling comics. PERIOD.

 

And one more thing: just because CGC doesn't "detect" NDP, doesn't mean there aren't people out there that can't...

 

If you can find a buyer that is willing to take a loss like that even though they have no prior knowledge whether the book was pressed 10 or 20 years ago, and have no clue how to detect pressing, than go for it. Otherwise you're calling 95% of collectors out there frauds.

 

So I guess given your rationale, its ok for the unassuming buyer to take the hit in loss of value after a book reverts, but not the seller?

 

What if I decide to crack the book out of the slab, and after a year or so out of the slab, the book begins to revert to its original pre-NDP defects? I say that given my dogrmatic insistence and predisposition towards steering clear of books which have been pressed (and although I may be speaking from the minority, this is akin to the condition sensitive collector wanting to steer clear of PLOD books), then I feel that sellers ought to be a little more dilligent about finding out as much about the books history before selling.

 

And besides, your taking this discussion to the extreme end of the continuum -- although I can agree to disagree with your points on decietful selling practices, and selling NDP books without disclosure is but one of the many, I'm referring specifically to the scumbag sellers that are doing the NDP work and failing to disclose the work. In my opinion, their behaviour is none better than the nefarious selling activities of the one who's been tarred and feathered on these boards and others for passing off restored books as unrestored.

 

I'm against pressing just as much as you are. However, I think what Mark has suggested seems to be the way to go. Keep tabs on resubmitted books, until the pressers start taking a hit in their pockets . I just don't want to create a massive hysteria where all collectors feel like they're committing fraud when trying to sell a book. This is an easy way to keep a lot of honest people out the comic book market.

[comicwiz]

I'm against pressing just as much as you are. However, I think what Mark has suggested seems to be the way to go. Keep tabs on resubmitted books, until the pressers start taking a hit in their pockets. I just don't want to create a massive hysteria where all collectors feel like they're committing fraud when trying to sell a book. This is an easy way to keep a lot of honest people out the comic book market.

 

I agree that an alarmist approach is not the solution. What I've been advancing from the first page of this NDP chapter is that this hobby has taken a wrong turn, down a path that has been less travelled for a reason. This is the same path that put this hobby into a dormant state for nearly a decade -- when collectors decided almost unanimously that it wasn't fun for the frauds to skip town after they'd bought books that were restored and getting stuck with books worth a fraction of what they paid, and dealers/sellers were conveniently plee bargaining their case for being uninformed and incognizant. At the risk of sounding Chicken-Little-esque, I don't believe this hobby would rebound the way it did this last time around if it were to suffer from repeat narcoleptsy in todays rapidly changing world.

 

This legacy of the blind leading the blind seems to have the spectators both cheering and booing on the sidelines. No doubt, I believe that part of the problem rests on sellers getting off their laurels, ceasing with the feeding frenzy, and to start doing the right thing. But there is also a part of me which believes that rather than displacing the problem entirely on the lap of sellers and the people doing the pressing, we as collectors and part-time sellers must assume some of the responsibility ourselves.

 

I would sooner disclose NDP openly with the collecting community than to disguise or cloak it through a slab to make a fast buck. I've had three offers for the X-Men books I have in my backstock, and each time a request for the book is tabled, I voluntarily let the buyer know that the book has reverted from amatuer pressing. Some have become repeat buyers because they appreciate the honesty. Others are value sensitive collectors, and know that they more than likely will have to spend some money to fix the problem, and on a Byrne X-Men book, the cost/benefit just isn't an appealing one.

 

I've got a Cap 66 now with which I know will score higher if NDP'd. A procedure I haven't yet entirely outruled. However, the mere fact that I've made scans of this book publicly available on the boards, have indicated that it is a press candidate, and would disclose the work if I were to carry forward with NDP removes the misleading aspect of my selling the book because I'm providing proper disclosure. I feel that it is only in cases where NDP is disclosed that a buyer can make an informed choice about whether an NDP'd book is something they want to add to their collection.

 

Its far from being a solution, but its a start.

[nearmint]

...I think we're done here.

 

8 PAGES LATER !!! You have to be kidding!

 

Actually, we really were done at that point. Nothing new in this thread since then.

[Red Hook]

Hey, if you really want to get into it, there hasn't been anything much new of importance since the destruction of the library in Alexandria.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

 

but then, it's not our place to judge.

[Underdog]

You been watching the History Channel today?

[Red Hook]

No, not today. Carl Sagan taught me everything I needed to know about the Library in Alexandria.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I've got a Cap 66 now with which I know will score higher if NDP'd. A procedure I haven't yet entirely outruled. However, the mere fact that I've made scans of this book publicly available on the boards, have indicated that it is a press candidate, and would disclose the work if I were to carry forward with NDP removes the misleading aspect of my selling the book because I'm providing proper disclosure. I feel that it is only in cases where NDP is disclosed that a buyer can make an informed choice about whether an NDP'd book is something they want to add to their collection.

 

Its far from being a solution, but its a start.

 

 

[nearmint]

No, not today. Carl Sagan taught me everything I needed to know about the Library in Alexandria.

 

Me too! I actually took a Cosmos class in college. Each week we'd walk one episode of the show, then spend two hours discussing it an going off on wild tangents. Great class.

[tth2]

No, not today. Carl Sagan taught me everything I needed to know about the Library in Alexandria.

 

Me too! I actually took a Cosmos class in college. Each week we'd walk one episode of the show, then spend two hours discussing it an going off on wild tangents. Great class.

If you went to a state school, sounds like millions and billions of tax dollars going to waste!

[october]

No, not today. Carl Sagan taught me everything I needed to know about the Library in Alexandria.

 

Hey! I just saw that! Cool show.

 

 

I loved his books "The Demon Haunted World" and "Billions and Billions". The man had an amazing talent for making science appealing to a broad audience. He will be missed.

[Red Hook]

Aw, don't get me goin' on Carl S. I'm still sorry he went as early as he did. I own the Cosmos series on DVD. I was a big fan of his from way back......I read his earlier books in the 70's.....The Cosmic Connection, Broca's Brain....and just kept going. I could post a couple thousand more words on the guy, but I'll spare everyone, and just recommend any of his books. And get that DVD set.....you can try getting it at this place I stumbled across called Ebay....kind of an online bidding website. Ever hear of it?

 

 

Have a good day gents.

[bobel]

If Heat is bad for books how can pressing not be?

[FFB]

If Heat is bad for books how can pressing not be?

 

I asked this same question to Tracey Heft when I spoke to him about my AF#15 that he's restoring. He kind of chuckled at the question and said "No, it's not a lot of heat and the book isn't in the press that long. It's harmless." The actual printing process is probably more damaging to the paper than putting it in a dry mount press is as long as you follow safe procedures.

 

Like I said before, if controlled pressing were dangerous, it wouldn't be standard operating procedure for literally every professional conservator who works with paper. These people bend over backward to avoid doing anything harmful to the artifacts they treat.

[burntboy]

If Heat is bad for books how can pressing not be?

 

I asked this same question to Tracey Heft when I spoke to him about my AF#15 that he's restoring. He kind of chuckled at the question and said "No, it's not a lot of heat and the book isn't in the press that long. It's harmless." The actual printing process is probably more damaging to the paper than putting it in a dry mount press is as long as you follow safe procedures.

 

Like I said before, if controlled pressing were dangerous, it wouldn't be standard operating procedure for literally every professional conservator who works with paper. These people bend over backward to avoid doing anything harmful to the artifacts they treat.

 

how is the AF#15 coming along??? any idea when you'll get it and can share some pics. i'm waiting to see how your's turns out before i submit my copy of Hulk #1.

[FFB]

If Heat is bad for books how can pressing not be?

 

I asked this same question to Tracey Heft when I spoke to him about my AF#15 that he's restoring. He kind of chuckled at the question and said "No, it's not a lot of heat and the book isn't in the press that long. It's harmless." The actual printing process is probably more damaging to the paper than putting it in a dry mount press is as long as you follow safe procedures.

 

Like I said before, if controlled pressing were dangerous, it wouldn't be standard operating procedure for literally every professional conservator who works with paper. These people bend over backward to avoid doing anything harmful to the artifacts they treat.

 

how is the AF#15 coming along??? any idea when you'll get it and can share some pics. i'm waiting to see how your's turns out before i submit my copy of Hulk #1.

 

He hasn't started on it yet, other than preliminary planning. He had a few other projects in line ahead of mine, so I'm going to be waiting until around October.

[burntboy]

If Heat is bad for books how can pressing not be?

 

I asked this same question to Tracey Heft when I spoke to him about my AF#15 that he's restoring. He kind of chuckled at the question and said "No, it's not a lot of heat and the book isn't in the press that long. It's harmless." The actual printing process is probably more damaging to the paper than putting it in a dry mount press is as long as you follow safe procedures.

 

Like I said before, if controlled pressing were dangerous, it wouldn't be standard operating procedure for literally every professional conservator who works with paper. These people bend over backward to avoid doing anything harmful to the artifacts they treat.

 

how is the AF#15 coming along??? any idea when you'll get it and can share some pics. i'm waiting to see how your's turns out before i submit my copy of Hulk #1.

 

 

He hasn't started on it yet, other than preliminary planning. He had a few other projects in line ahead of mine, so I'm going to be waiting until around October.

 

youch!!!!!!! that's worse then waiting for econ's from sarasota........

 

[jbud73]

If Heat is bad for books how can pressing not be?

 

I asked this same question to Tracey Heft when I spoke to him about my AF#15 that he's restoring. He kind of chuckled at the question and said "No, it's not a lot of heat and the book isn't in the press that long. It's harmless." The actual printing process is probably more damaging to the paper than putting it in a dry mount press is as long as you follow safe procedures.

 

Like I said before, if controlled pressing were dangerous, it wouldn't be standard operating procedure for literally every professional conservator who works with paper. These people bend over backward to avoid doing anything harmful to the artifacts they treat.

 

how is the AF#15 coming along??? any idea when you'll get it and can share some pics. i'm waiting to see how your's turns out before i submit my copy of Hulk #1.

 

 

 

 

He hasn't started on it yet, other than preliminary planning. He had a few other projects in line ahead of mine, so I'm going to be waiting until around October.

 

youch!!!!!!! that's worse then waiting for econ's from sarasota........

 

Ya but at least Tracy will disclose to Scott EVERYTHING that was done to the book. Econ's from Sarasota these days ya just never know anymore.

[awe4one]

Ya but at least Tracy will disclose to Scott EVERYTHING that was done to the book. Econ's from Sarasota these days ya just never know anymore.

 

 

Jim

[towards2112]

...I think we're done here.

 

8 PAGES LATER !!! You have to be kidding!

 

Actually, we really were done at that point. Nothing new in this thread since then.

 

[nearmint]

If I were as clever as Redhook, I'd change that sign to read "END OF TOPIC!"