Grader Notes

[comicwiz]

At this point, I don't have much more input to add to this discussion other than to say the graders notes would more loosely full under the category of business intelligence (BI) more than anything else.

 

BI's value add can come from something as simple as assembling and arranging data to accelerate analysis and actionable insight.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that CGC has factored into their decision that graders notes are enabling a thriving cottage industry of CPR (something they would have gotten into themselves if not for the controversy it stirred-up).

 

The copyright/IP aspects don't apply well to this type of data, and if there is any trace of a proprietary element, it would come from the way the data is stored, organized, accessed and recalled.

[Cat-Man_America]

Wow! This thread has jumped 10+ pages since I hit the hay last night. Because of the time differences I'm playing catch-up (we're currently in London).

 

OK, I'm not a lawyer, but I've been consuming copious amounts of foie gras on this trip to get my legal chops up to snuff.

 

That said, having read every conceivable argument and speculated on a few abstract ones, I've reached the conclusion that this new charging policy will be disastrous for CGC if it isn't modified in some manner to appease the concerns of customers.

 

IMHO, the property ownership issues are a serious gray area that no carefully phrased legalese can mitigate. Charging a tiered fee for notes derived from a service that has already been purchased opens the door to a wide range of claims against CGC that can potentially jeopardize the long established trust in the service. My point here is that it isnH't necessarily the legal issues that should concern CGC or it's customer base so much as a decline in the expectation of professionalism that customers have received in the past.

 

From my perspective, the grader opinions are an appraisal paid for by the original owner who submitted said books. Should the notes be readily available to everyone? Maybe, but only if CGC isn't selling the work-product for a fee. Basically, it comes down to selling something that was paid for by one person to someone else without the first person's permission. The issue of reselling or marketing privately held information is a critical concern for many folks these days.

 

The argument CGC would make is that the grader notes are their proprietary work-product and they can do with it whatever they choose, but as CGC is providing an appraisal service to customers rather than a manufacturer of goods that argument becomes less valid. Under this scenario the slippery slope mentioned earlier is no longer the issue, it's the loosely packed snow-job that supports any justification for charging additional fees for services already rendered. The avalanche warnings have sounded.

 

 

 

 

[chrisco37]

Based on the disclaimer that The CGC ( ) has, are you allowed to transfer the notes along to the next owner?

 

I buy a book from someone that paid to see the notes. They've got a printout and include it with the book I'm buying. Not an additional charge for the notes. Is that an infraction of their disclaimer?

[asteroid-comix]

Based on the disclaimer that The CGC ( ) has, are you allowed to transfer the notes along to the next owner?

 

I buy a book from someone that paid to see the notes. They've got a printout and include it with the book I'm buying. Not an additional charge for the notes. Is that an infraction of their disclaimer?

 

Assuming you get the notes. Placed my order on Thursday and still have not received them.

[comicwiz]

The argument CGC would make is that the grader notes are their proprietary work-product and they can do with it whatever they choose..

 

From a warranty of services viewpoint, it is not only counter-intuitive to be charging an additional fee for graders notes, but downright despicable, primarily because those notes might otherwise relinquish the need to crack open the slab to inspect the interior condition of the comic.

 

The slab as a selling tool poorly acclamates to a market environment where the tamper evident holder interferes with the buyers ability to do an inspection, and the only way to overcome the service design is through a company imposed tariff or through breach of warranty.

 

I understand how the CPR and gamification of grading turns the tables on this assumption, but those notes help keep the book in their slab a lot longer when they are freely accessible than when there is a charge to access them.

 

A crude analogy would be like buying a brand new TV and at checkout refusing to buy the extended warranty or insurance, not knowing that the TV has a time bomb feature set to deactivate the TV a day after the manufacturer warranty expires, and that the store remotely turns off the time bomb only when you buy the extended warranty or insurance.

 

The real rub is that even if you find out about the time bomb and try to remove it in a last ditch attempt to extend the life of your purchase, as soon as you try to open the set to remove it, you would tear all the tamper evident stickers/seals around the sets enclosure and in doing so would void the manufacturers warranty.

[WEBHEAD]

Considering the number of lawyers on this board and the fact that this thread is exploding... has anyone PM or e-mailed Mark Zaid? It would be interesting if he would express an opinion on this and put it to bed or light a fire to it

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Based on the disclaimer that The CGC ( ) has, are you allowed to transfer the notes along to the next owner?

 

I buy a book from someone that paid to see the notes. They've got a printout and include it with the book I'm buying. Not an additional charge for the notes. Is that an infraction of their disclaimer?

 

Assuming you get the notes. Placed my order on Thursday and still have not received them.

 

I'm guessing they won't be very informative and will be far from comphrensive. Should've invested in the Happy Meal instead.

[buuduh]

Based on the disclaimer that The CGC ( ) has, are you allowed to transfer the notes along to the next owner?

 

I buy a book from someone that paid to see the notes. They've got a printout and include it with the book I'm buying. Not an additional charge for the notes. Is that an infraction of their disclaimer?

 

Assuming you get the notes. Placed my order on Thursday and still have not received them.

Ya same here haven't gotten a email yet with them!

[asteroid-comix]

Based on the disclaimer that The CGC ( ) has, are you allowed to transfer the notes along to the next owner?

 

I buy a book from someone that paid to see the notes. They've got a printout and include it with the book I'm buying. Not an additional charge for the notes. Is that an infraction of their disclaimer?

 

Assuming you get the notes. Placed my order on Thursday and still have not received them.

 

I'm guessing they won't be very informative and will be far from comphrensive. Should've invested in the Happy Meal instead.

 

Agree, would have also tasted better than a 30 year old book. It's a book I had graded, so I'm pretty sure what all the defects would have been. I just wanted to see what you got for $15 and I guess I got my answer. (shug)

[B-Smooth]

Not sure if this was brought up or not, as I haven't been able to get through the entire thread. In sports cards PSA was absolute king for a long time, and for many years they went unchallenged. SGC has done okay, but it was Beckett who finally evened the playing field. It's amazing how much better PSA's service got when there was another show in town. Perhaps, with these record prices on action 1, tec 27, etc., that have made news outside of the hobby, and the success of the movies, someone might step up and start a new company? Again, I'm sorry if it has been brought up already.

[chrisco37]

 

Wow! A blast from the past!!!

[Transplant]

To just dismiss the idea that the owner of a copyright or some IP is without merit, simply because the IP or description or copyright is simplistic, is foolish. You're showing you don't really know what you're talking about.

 

I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, but as a co-inventor of several US Patents, I know a bit about the subject. I'd say good luck and god speed to attempts to copyright grader notes. © It's not just that the notes are simplistic, they're also in the case of most high grade books neither substantive nor discrete.

 

 

"Copyright is a legal concept, enacted by most governments, giving the creator of an original work exclusive rights to it, usually for a limited time.....It is an intellectual property form (like the patent, the trademark, and the trade secret) applicable to any expressible form of an idea or information that is substantive and discrete."

So you're saying that a description of one book out of millions is not a discrete form of information? Okay. I suppose a fingerprint isn't discrete either?

[COI]

 

Wow! A blast from the past!!!

 

Holy mess, no kidding.

 

Now, where's BOC at?

[B-Smooth]

 

Wow! A blast from the past!!!

 

Holy mess, no kidding.

 

Now, where's BOC at?

 

[Transplant]

For the record, I think copyright or patent is a poor road for protecting this information. I think that it's more analogous to proprietary information. Most states recognize protection for such things, in the absence of a clear right to use that proprietary/confidential information from the owner.

[NewWorldOrder]

The discussion of copyright and intellectual property is amusing, but seems to miss that "multiple spine stress lines" and "back cover corner crease" aren't original works that can be protected by copyright or intellectual property that can be protected by trademark or patent.

 

I agree--it's data. The owner of the book doesn't have a right to it either though.

Wow. You guys would not make great patent or IP lawyers. If drug companies can patent a natural. biological process, then I think I can copyright the description of the book I own. Especially true if I haven't make that description or viewing public. To just dismiss the idea that the owner of a copyright or some IP is without merit, simply because the IP or description or copyright is simplistic, is foolish. You're showing you don't really know what you're talking about.

 

Mike,

 

Why wasn't this bought up before money for grades was even introduced?

 

If you posted a scan of any of your books on these boards I can take YOUR CGC serial number and call CGC to find out the graders notes on YOUR book.

 

I am obtaining personalized information on a book you currently own. So where was the outrage from day 1 then on this issue?

 

Trust me I see your point on a book you own with regards to CGC making extra free money on the back of your submission, but we both know you are being kinda extreme on the issue, no? This new service has no chance of being anything but a failed experiment by CGC that will not amount to anything. CGC looks at worst they are eliminating the extra phone calls per day they don't want to be bothered with anymore.

 

No CGC book is ever going to generate that kind of buzz to which it gathers many collectors, dealers, press whores, or investors together to spend hundreds of dollars on a single book let alone a book you own.

 

Plus for you to even get your panties into an uproar you have to leak the CGC serial number yourself in the first place for this in theory scenario to even take place.

 

 

 

John: Whether I got upset about it previously or not doesn't change the fact that I own the description of MY book. The only way CGC got access to that description was via the submission process. I don't recall granting any license to use that information in a commercial manner.

 

For the record, I wasn't very happy when a book of mine was scanned by CGC and featured in their monthly newsletter without my permission, Wyatt Earp #7, Mile High.

 

Imagine if you will that I'm one of those secretive collectors who guards every detail about their books. Do you think Dave Anderson would relish sending in the Church Action #1 and having the graders' notes available to anyone who pays $30 to CGC? What about Brulato and some 9.6 Marvel super key? Hell, what about Richard and his Silver Streak #9? Am I forced to edit out the cert # so that I can protect against disclosure of the graders' notes? What's to stop someone from simply running search after search to discover notable books? What if the owner never showed the cert # to anyone, yet the notes are still available to anyone who stumbles across the cert #?

 

Mike,

 

You being a lawyer I think you should read section 10. Seems to me you agreed to everything you are now upset with everytime you submit a book for CGC services.

 

I understand your feelings on having privacy of the comic books you collect I really do, but CGC in it's history has always used other people's books to highlight their services. You know if they ever grade the MH Action Comics #1 they are going to showcase that book in a huge article on their website or newsletters. It is not like CGC is telling the general public who submitted the books.

 

Now the whole graders notes fees and the crepe you have about CGC making money as a bi-product of your books....well that is something I am not touching and will leave that to you lawyers.

 

http://www.cgccomics.com/services/services-terms-and-conditions.asp

 

10. Company compiles data regarding, and makes digital images of, items submitted for Services. In partial consideration for the performance of Services by Company pursuant to this Submission Form, Customer hereby authorizes Company to compile such data and make such images and agrees that Company shall have an irrevocable, non-exclusive, perpetual, unlimited, royalty-free right and license to use and commercialize such data and images for any purpose.

[Transplant]

Thanks John. I wasn't aware of these T&Cs. I'll review.

[NewWorldOrder]

Thanks John. I wasn't aware of these T&Cs. I'll review.

 

BTW Mike.....I mean I believe that covers them for marketing of such images and data for marketing reasons, not really sure about the data being sold as a bi-product in their new grading notes fee structure.

 

 

[chrisco37]

 

Wow! A blast from the past!!!

 

Holy mess, no kidding.

 

Now, where's BOC at?

 

Miss that guy.

[Transplant]

I think the words "perpetual" and "unlimited" and "for any purpose" might be problematic to that point of view.

 

Does anyone know how long these T&Cs have been around? Are they on the submission forms?