Grader Notes

[Crows]

Well I believe if you paid to have your book graded, the notes should be included.

If I have a car problem, take it to the garage to be fixed, im not going to be happy with just a bill. I want to know what justified the bill ie. what was wrong ? what parts needed replacing and at what cost ? how long did they actullay spend repairing it ? All that info is included on the receipt. They dont charge me extra for the receipt.

Of course I would like to know what justifies the grade they gave my book, i paid for the service ! I dont agree with this charge.

My

[hockey&comicsguy]

 

Yes, CGC is making it harder for me to sell CGC books if they charge for grading notes.

 

 

FWIW, a couple of years ago I'd strictly try and find a certain book CGC'd. As a small time buyer I have noticed that over the past 2 years I have leaned more and more towards being completely happy buying raw books from reputable dealers like yourself and having that slab and it's assurances has meant less and less to me. I'm not going to push the market at all but perhaps there are thousands more like me and maybe there's a shift going on.

[Mxwll Smrt]

Again – the notes are created in the process of creating the grade of the book and they would not exist otherwise or happen without the work for hire.

 

Secondly, if a disclaimer lacks legal basis it doesn't grant anything - it is deficient.

[Bruno_s4]

 

It's possible for staples to rust after the book is slabbed.

 

 

Problem was this book (an Iron Fist #14. 9.6 OW-W) had no notes and was slabbed for less than a year when I bought it. The worst part is that the rust was apparent enough when looked at in hand but the scans were cleverly out of focus.

 

 

I saw this book and was SHOCKED at the grade.

The rust actually flaked and sat inside the slab at the bottom. Pretty fugly.

[DrWatson]

 

Yes, CGC is making it harder for me to sell CGC books if they charge for grading notes.

 

 

FWIW, a couple of years ago I'd strictly try and find a certain book CGC'd. As a small time buyer I have noticed that over the past 2 years I have leaned more and more towards being completely happy buying raw books from reputable dealers like yourself and having that slab and it's assurances has meant less and less to me. I'm not going to push the market at all but perhaps there are thousands more like me and maybe there's a shift going on.

I agree. Unless you are dependent on someone else telling that your collection is the best, then this is the way I see the trend heading. Except for a single modern run, the Northlands (which really aren't grade dependent) and some SS stuff, if I ever put any type of run back together, it would be raw. My ego no longer has to have a book that has been quantified by a third party grading service.

[NewWorldOrder]

 

The only reason for me why graders notes was ever valuable is to maybe why the book was hammered so bad due to some interior problems that I missed. Other than that graders notes are completely worthless because mostly everything you can see is right in front of you.

 

Your reasons will be different from mine, and the last thing I want is for any book concealed in a tamper evident holder to have rusty staples or evidence of rust migration.

 

My point of view on this subject - as a seller interested in respecting the buyers concerns and not just about making a quick buck, you either crack out the book, buy the notes, or lose the sale. End of story.

 

And of course, I'm not that unscrupulous an individual to lead a seller on to proceed with buying notes unless I was sure I was buying the book, conditional on it not having rusty staples.

 

Too bad CGC decided to remove that notation from the label.

 

I think that is an unrealistic approach to buying a CGC slab.

 

Seems to me you need to stop buying CGC books online and only buy in person if you have this mentality.

 

I get some collectors are picky collectors, but now you want the dealer/seller to jump through hoops just to get a sale on a comic book which is absurd to me honestly.

 

Remember most collectors don't go into further angst past making sure the book is in the CGC grade they want and PQ. Sellers get books graded so they don't have to worry about grading so now you want them to pay for the grading fees then again pay for the grading notes on that book? Come on dude.

 

You can easily just Call, PM, or Email mostly every dealer & seller on the internet to ask them questions on the book you want to buy before you buy it. So why would I for example pay for graders notes on a book in which I can tell you for FREE on my own?

 

For a customer such as yourself I would just tell you all the information I can, and if you are not happy after you receive the book I would be okay with you returning the CGC book to me no questions asked. However, my Eagles would win a Superbowl before I would ever pay for graders notes or crack out the book without having a committed sale in place regardless of the outcome of the grader notes, sorry.

 

 

 

[blazingbob]

Buyers have never asked me for grading notes on a CGC graded book.

 

 

 

[hockey&comicsguy]

My ego no longer has to have a book that has been quantified by a third party grading service.

 

I think you're onto something. In the past I might have thought it was strictly about reassurance and thinking that the book does look good in a slab. But looking back on it now, and the fact that i'm more open to buying mid and even lower grade, I have no problem admitting a lot of what I was buying was driven in some part by ego. Of course I still liked the books I was buying but it just seems different for me now. And you know what, books look just as good in mylar to me now. If I can get a fair price from a good dealer, I'll take raw books all day long now. I still buy slabs. But it's strictly for the book inside now and has nothing to do with the slab anymore. I think I still have some ways to go though as I don't yet see myself cracking all my slabs. This would be for resale reasons I suppose.

[blazingbob]

I am not going to slow down the submitting of books because CGC wants to charge for grading notes.

 

 

[Cat-Man_America]

Secondly, and more to the point, the legal(?) gray area is whether any license to resell work product has been granted to CGC via the convoluted legal jargon of the T&C document. The sticking point has nothing to do with creative rights associated with who manufactured the comic book, it's about a change in policy regarding the work product acquired under contract for a grade appraisal and what rights, if any, the owner of the comic book has after the work has been completed.

 

Ultimately, I suppose the owner could claim a right to privacy not wishing to have any information disclosed about books he or she has submitted for grading. For a dealer, this would seem counter intuitive, but full disclosure might depend on the actual grade received in contrast to what internal data was exposed in the grader's notes (some flaws being more distasteful to collectors than others). More likely, the dealer might prefer complete disclosure, allowing free dissemination of all information associated with grading his/her books. Assuming the latter, the ethical issue then falls squarely on CGC.

 

I agree that what they're doing is possibly unethical, I just can't see how it's illegal even if they had no terms and conditions stated.

 

Sorry, I've been away for dinner (London time zone). I didn't mean to imply that CGC is doing anything illegal in the criminal sense, I'm just saying that it's possible that they're on shakey ground in respect to civil statutes, possession wise, ethical considerations notwithstanding. In civil law they may have covered all the bases, then again, maybe not. I'm not an attorney, but the convoluted nature of the T&C wording and the fact that they are just now invoking a policy to profit from it may produce legal challenges to CGC's claim of sole proprietorship of contracted work product.

 

 

[blazingbob]

Tough to know what you are talking about without a link to the book or image

 

I saw this book and was SHOCKED at the grade.

The rust actually flaked and sat inside the slab at the bottom. Pretty fugly.

[hockey&comicsguy]

What if CGC included the notes in the slab? Maybe they could have a fold over label and on the inside are the complete notes. The rub is you can't view the notes unless you crack the slab.

 

I haven't thought this through at all and I don't believe this idea has much relevance to the discussion but I know I like cracking open fortune cookies.

[seanfingh]

Tough to know what you are talking about without a link to the book or image

 

I saw this book and was SHOCKED at the grade.

The rust actually flaked and sat inside the slab at the bottom. Pretty fugly.

 

The only reasonable explanation is that someone housed a very sharp 9.6 IF 14 in a gun safe or other hyperhumid climate and the staples rusted inside the slab.

 

Obviously, that is no excuse for the seller sticking the buyer with a book that was clearly no longer a 9.6, but there is no way that CGC missed disintegratingly rusting staples.

[blazingbob]

Not going to happen

[NewWorldOrder]

What if CGC included the notes in the slab? Maybe they could have a fold over label and on the inside are the complete notes. The rub is you can't view the notes unless you crack the slab.

 

I haven't thought this through at all and I don't believe this idea has much relevance to the discussion but I know I like cracking open fortune cookies.

 

Jim (cgcworld) says when you get an action figure graded they ship with the figure on a separate piece of paper the graders notes on each figure.

 

I say do that and then it is up to the seller to pass that documentation onto the next owner and so on. After taht the company can say we disclosed the information once, and they can be done with it.

 

Again personally I have said many times that CGC should have never given out the grader's notes in the first place since day 1. Have that information internally so no one knows anything. Keep it a mystery.

[comicwiz]

What if CGC included the notes in the slab? Maybe they could have a fold over label and on the inside are the complete notes. The rub is you can't view the notes unless you crack the slab.

 

I haven't thought this through at all and I don't believe this idea has much relevance to the discussion but I know I like cracking open fortune cookies.

 

No that is a good point, Jim (cgcworld) says when you get an action figure graded they ship with the figure on a separate piece of paper the graders notes on each figure.

 

I say do that and then it is up to the seller to pass that documentation onto the next owner and so on. After they then the company can say we disclosed the information once, and they can be done with it.

 

Again personally I have said many times that CGC should have never given out the grader's notes in the first place since day 1. Here that information internally so no one knows anything. Keep it a mystery.

 

AFA does include subscores right on the sticker (one for the card, one for the blister and one for the figure) . The grading of toys is not anywhere near as involved as grading a comic.

 

With toy grading, you are basing the grade on a 3-dimensional object and the wear will eventually determine the final score. Whereas the grading of a comic takes on a different level of examination, from the way the book appears from the outside, the interior pages, the colour of those pages, the inspection of inserts, condition of staples, etc.

 

In cases where certain toys require a certificate of authenticity, the one pager will explain the reviewers description of the item and details based on its authenticity. In the case of refusal, they do include a refusal document which gives a very brief description of why it was rejected for grading.

 

So the subscores are an important part of establishing the actual final grade and doesn't require anything more than the encased item. The COA or refusal report would be an additional document included at the time of resale and can make a HUGE difference on the value of an item with COA versus an item without.

[fantastic_four]

The notes are not the property of the person--they didn't create them, CGC created them. They own them. As stated earlier in the thread, they're usually not unique enough to fall under copyright, but they're in CGC's possession and I can't see how the client has any right to a text description of their item.

Just b/c you keep repeating the same thing, doesn't make it so.

 

What right does the customer have to them? I feel like I've asked you this question before.

[fantastic_four]

Part of me is kind of miffed at CGC and the other part of me thinks they have every right to do what they're doing.

 

I'm miffed at them as well, but as far as I can tell they have every legal right to do it.

[Ghost Town]

I haven't read the debate but if all it is amounts to griping that they will charge 15 for notes, I think you guys have it backwards. I'm surprised they EVER spent that kind of employee time giving out free notes and I view the charge not as a profit grab but as an effort to stop having dozens of people call them every day wasting company time and energy. I bet if they could do it over again graders notes would never have been open to the public at any price.

Yup. And I find it interesting that so many people in this thread think that they are entitled to the notes free of charge. Especially when oftentimes the person requesting the notes isn't the guy who submitted the book in the first place.

 

That's not to say I'm a fan of the pricing structure for the notes. Maybe CGC really is trying to discourage people from requesting the notes. If so, I'd guess they'll succeed. If they want to increase revenue, I'd bet more they'd do better with more reasonable pricing.

 

 

[fantastic_four]

Again – the notes are created in the process of creating the grade of the book and they would not exist otherwise or happen without the work for hire.

 

Secondly, if a disclaimer lacks legal basis it doesn't grant anything - it is deficient.

 

I agree, the notes are created in the process of creating the grade. That still doesn't give the book's owner any rights to those notes. I completely understand why someone would feel like they might, but I've never heard of a law that grants someone rights to all written descriptions of an item they own--if you know of such a law, please share it with me.

 

Transplant and Mxwll Smrt--I'm only posting about the legality of this in the hope that someone who knows what specific law CGC is breaking here--I'm curious myself as to whether they are. I highly doubt they are, but I'm not ready to rule it out, which is why I keep asking what law they're breaking. If you don't know, that's fine, I'm only posting in the chance that someone does know and will cite it. (thumbs u