Grader Notes

[comicwiz]

Just called CGC to check on grader notes for a comic I'm thinking about. He put me on hold for a min and then told me as of today you can get the notes on CGC site by entering the cert #.

 

Logged into CGC site, entered cert # than was informed that if I wanted grader notes it would be $15 and billed to my account.

 

Econ, value and modern $5

Standard or Express $15

Walkthrough $30

 

 

This makes me mad. I paid over $100 to get something graded and when it was resubbed I paid another $100 to get the grade it deserved. Now I have to pay $15 to determine this? That is pretty awful. Yeah, it's great to have the notes published (finally) but it was only a matter of time before CGC had to do something to support the grades they put on the books. TO have to pay an additiona sum to get this information seems very petty to me.

 

I don't see how it is petty. If you pay for a service with a defined outcome (a graded and slabbed comic) are you necessarily entitled to all of the work product that goes into providing it?

 

 

YES, because they do not offer a grading guideline or transparent explanation of how they grade and when your book looks 1-2 grades far better or worse than the grade they have assigned, at the very least they owe you the notes showing what defects they used (perhaps some hidden) to arrive at that grade, especially for future buyers that never held the book in their hands! At the very least, these notes should be sent along with the books to the original customer who paid those incredibly high CGC fees to begin with! My theory is they are just too busy and just want to drive away customers and make more doing it so they can improve their turn times!

 

If a home inspector missed a leak in the foundation, and the miss leads to water damaged contents months after the resale of the home, I seriously doubt the home inspector would get off easily.

 

The fact that CGC grades a comic and is allowed to do so with undisclosed defects like rusting staples is no different.

 

Same lousy work by the home inspector shouldn't give CGC a pass on providing a half- assessment of submitters comics.

 

Worse of course are the optics of a home inspector calling you post inspection asking you to pay for his full notes on the inspection, which include undisclosed deffects of the home like leaky foundations, errors in wiring, etc.

 

It's this analogy which makes what CGC is doing here wrong on so many levels.

 

But you're talking about what happens if they get the grade wrong.

 

Not how they arrive at the grade.

 

I'll repeat...you pay for three people to examine the book, a plastic holder and a Big Number.

 

They do that, they have fulfilled the contract.

 

No Nick. You can slice and dice merits of the slab sixty different ways. The slab is strictly a selling tool. As is, the CGC slab can be resold with many undisclosed defects as the label falls short of delivering this information. In order to gain a complete assessment, CGC has decided to tack on an additional fee for graders notes.

 

Defects such as rusting staples are of a deterioration nature, and my analogy of the home inspector holding back details of a leaky foundation, only to sell those details separately and/or at an additional cost is not an exemplary model of fulfilling any type of assessment on contract basis. Not even snake oil salesman are capable of such charlatanism.

 

But Joseph, the whole point is being missed here.

 

It's not that the grader's notes now attract a fee to access - that's not the problem.

 

The real problem is that the service and product that CGC provide is actually a fantasy. They are doing exactly what they have promised to do in return for the fee. It's just that people are suddenly realising that what they promised to do actually isn't worth of hill of beans without add-ons.

 

Their inconsistancy and lack of published standards means that the curtain has been pulled back and we've all suddenly realised that there's nobody there.

 

That Big Number actually isn't anything other than an opinion from some faceless geezer.

 

On this, I totally agree.

 

Unfortunately, the wool pulled over our eyes has become a preferred garment and something of a fashion statement.

 

Until people start thumbing their noses at a CGC 9.6, and choose the raw NM+ copy instead, the greed factor will always be a blind spot.

[DrWatson]

That Big Number actually isn't anything other than an opinion from some faceless geezer.

What I find amazing is that people are spending thousands and thousands of dollars based on the opinion of these individuals. Scarily, it's an opinion that can change from submission to submission regarding the same (unmanipulated) book.

 

Your 2006 self would be scandalized by your attitude.

My 2006 self was a dumbarse.

[seanfingh]

That Big Number actually isn't anything other than an opinion from some faceless geezer.

What I find amazing is that people are spending thousands and thousands of dollars based on the opinion of these individuals. Scarily, it's an opinion that can change from submission to submission regarding the same (unmanipulated) book.

 

Your 2006 self would be scandalized by your attitude.

My 2006 self was a dumbarse.

 

[DrWatson]

That Big Number actually isn't anything other than an opinion from some faceless geezer.

What I find amazing is that people are spending thousands and thousands of dollars based on the opinion of these individuals. Scarily, it's an opinion that can change from submission to submission regarding the same (unmanipulated) book.

 

Your 2006 self would be scandalized by your attitude.

My 2006 self was a dumbarse.

 

Not to imply that my 2012 self is any better.

[greggy]

That Big Number actually isn't anything other than an opinion from some faceless geezer.

What I find amazing is that people are spending thousands and thousands of dollars based on the opinion of these individuals. Scarily, it's an opinion that can change from submission to submission regarding the same (unmanipulated) book.

 

Your 2006 self would be scandalized by your attitude.

My 2006 self was a dumbarse.

 

Not to imply that my 2012 self is any better.

[Peter Loves Gwen]

That Big Number actually isn't anything other than an opinion from some faceless geezer.

What I find amazing is that people are spending thousands and thousands of dollars based on the opinion of these individuals. Scarily, it's an opinion that can change from submission to submission regarding the same (unmanipulated) book.

 

Your 2006 self would be scandalized by your attitude.

My 2006 self was a dumbarse.

 

Not to imply that my 2012 self is any better.

 

I know that feeling. I think what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would buy that car, or that one... so why did I buy them?

 

BTW, I have some cars for sale, and I do mean several, still, since selling one cheap yesterday.

[Cat-Man_America]

Just called CGC to check on grader notes for a comic I'm thinking about. He put me on hold for a min and then told me as of today you can get the notes on CGC site by entering the cert #.

 

Logged into CGC site, entered cert # than was informed that if I wanted grader notes it would be $15 and billed to my account.

 

Econ, value and modern $5

Standard or Express $15

Walkthrough $30

 

 

This makes me mad. I paid over $100 to get something graded and when it was resubbed I paid another $100 to get the grade it deserved. Now I have to pay $15 to determine this? That is pretty awful. Yeah, it's great to have the notes published (finally) but it was only a matter of time before CGC had to do something to support the grades they put on the books. TO have to pay an additiona sum to get this information seems very petty to me.

 

I don't see how it is petty. If you pay for a service with a defined outcome (a graded and slabbed comic) are you necessarily entitled to all of the work product that goHes into providing it?

 

 

YES, because they do not offer a grading guideline or transparent explanation of how they grade and when your book looks 1-2 grades far better or worse than the grade they have assigned, at the very least they owe you the notes showing what defects they used (perhaps some hidden) to arrive at that grade, especially for future buyers that never held the book in their hands! At the very least, these notes should be sent along with the books to the original customer who paid those incredibly high CGC fees to begin with! My theory is they are just too busy and just want to drive away customers and make more doing it so they can improve their turn times!

 

If a home inspector missed a leak in the foundation, and the miss leads to water damaged contents months after the resale of the home, I seriously doubt the home inspector would get off easily.

 

The fact that CGC grades a comic and is allowed to do so with undisclosed defects like rusting staples is no different.

 

Same lousy work by the home inspector shouldn't give CGC a pass on providing a half- assessment of submitters comics.

 

Worse of course are the optics of a home inspector calling you post inspection asking you to pay for his full notes on the inspection, which include undisclosed deffects of the home like leaky foundations, errors in wiring, etc.

 

It's this analogy which makes what CGC is doing here wrong on so many levels.

 

But you're talking about what happens if they get the grade wrong.

 

Not how they arrive at the grade.

 

I'll repeat...you pay for three people to examine the book, a plastic holder and a Big Number.

 

They do that, they have fulfilled the contract.

 

 

In my best Texas vernacular, that dog won't hunt.

 

OK, got that out of my system!

 

Regardless of any claims to the contrary, dealers and collectors who submit books for grading should expect more for their money than a holder and number. The notes, in essence, are proof that the work paid for was actually done. I suspect that most folks are under the impression (with some justification) that they're contracting for an appraisal, the sealed holder just being a means to guarantee the overall number grade visible through the slab.

 

The notes are the fine print, the details that provide useful information to prospective buyers and owners. Some dealers or their customers will request the notes, some won't, but arguably, the owner of a book should have some right to control any product derived from paid inspection of his/her property. I would be very surprised if any T&C document can disolve an owner's rights via a few weasel words, but what do I know, I'm just a layman, and legal rights issues get very complicated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[comicwiz]

Just called CGC to check on grader notes for a comic I'm thinking about. He put me on hold for a min and then told me as of today you can get the notes on CGC site by entering the cert #.

 

Logged into CGC site, entered cert # than was informed that if I wanted grader notes it would be $15 and billed to my account.

 

Econ, value and modern $5

Standard or Express $15

Walkthrough $30

 

 

This makes me mad. I paid over $100 to get something graded and when it was resubbed I paid another $100 to get the grade it deserved. Now I have to pay $15 to determine this? That is pretty awful. Yeah, it's great to have the notes published (finally) but it was only a matter of time before CGC had to do something to support the grades they put on the books. TO have to pay an additiona sum to get this information seems very petty to me.

 

I don't see how it is petty. If you pay for a service with a defined outcome (a graded and slabbed comic) are you necessarily entitled to all of the work product that goHes into providing it?

 

 

YES, because they do not offer a grading guideline or transparent explanation of how they grade and when your book looks 1-2 grades far better or worse than the grade they have assigned, at the very least they owe you the notes showing what defects they used (perhaps some hidden) to arrive at that grade, especially for future buyers that never held the book in their hands! At the very least, these notes should be sent along with the books to the original customer who paid those incredibly high CGC fees to begin with! My theory is they are just too busy and just want to drive away customers and make more doing it so they can improve their turn times!

 

If a home inspector missed a leak in the foundation, and the miss leads to water damaged contents months after the resale of the home, I seriously doubt the home inspector would get off easily.

 

The fact that CGC grades a comic and is allowed to do so with undisclosed defects like rusting staples is no different.

 

Same lousy work by the home inspector shouldn't give CGC a pass on providing a half- assessment of submitters comics.

 

Worse of course are the optics of a home inspector calling you post inspection asking you to pay for his full notes on the inspection, which include undisclosed deffects of the home like leaky foundations, errors in wiring, etc.

 

It's this analogy which makes what CGC is doing here wrong on so many levels.

 

But you're talking about what happens if they get the grade wrong.

 

Not how they arrive at the grade.

 

I'll repeat...you pay for three people to examine the book, a plastic holder and a Big Number.

 

They do that, they have fulfilled the contract.

 

 

In my best Texas vernacular, that dog won't hunt.

 

OK, got that out of my system!

 

Regardless of any claims to the contrary, dealers and collectors who submit books for grading should expect more for their money than a holder and number. The notes, in essence, are proof that the work paid for was actually done. I suspect that most folks are under the impression (with some justification) that they're contracting for an appraisal, the sealed holder just being a means to guarantee the overall number grade visible through the slab.

 

Comic without-Guaranty Company (CWGC), yes that better reflects a label represented by a numerical grade and no mention of rusting staples. To get a label with CGC - and the words "without" stricken from the label - you have to pay for graders notes.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Just called CGC to check on grader notes for a comic I'm thinking about. He put me on hold for a min and then told me as of today you can get the notes on CGC site by entering the cert #.

 

Logged into CGC site, entered cert # than was informed that if I wanted grader notes it would be $15 and billed to my account.

 

Econ, value and modern $5

Standard or Express $15

Walkthrough $30

 

 

This makes me mad. I paid over $100 to get something graded and when it was resubbed I paid another $100 to get the grade it deserved. Now I have to pay $15 to determine this? That is pretty awful. Yeah, it's great to have the notes published (finally) but it was only a matter of time before CGC had to do something to support the grades they put on the books. TO have to pay an additiona sum to get this information seems very petty to me.

 

I don't see how it is petty. If you pay for a service with a defined outcome (a graded and slabbed comic) are you necessarily entitled to all of the work product that goHes into providing it?

 

 

YES, because they do not offer a grading guideline or transparent explanation of how they grade and when your book looks 1-2 grades far better or worse than the grade they have assigned, at the very least they owe you the notes showing what defects they used (perhaps some hidden) to arrive at that grade, especially for future buyers that never held the book in their hands! At the very least, these notes should be sent along with the books to the original customer who paid those incredibly high CGC fees to begin with! My theory is they are just too busy and just want to drive away customers and make more doing it so they can improve their turn times!

 

If a home inspector missed a leak in the foundation, and the miss leads to water damaged contents months after the resale of the home, I seriously doubt the home inspector would get off easily.

 

The fact that CGC grades a comic and is allowed to do so with undisclosed defects like rusting staples is no different.

 

Same lousy work by the home inspector shouldn't give CGC a pass on providing a half- assessment of submitters comics.

 

Worse of course are the optics of a home inspector calling you post inspection asking you to pay for his full notes on the inspection, which include undisclosed deffects of the home like leaky foundations, errors in wiring, etc.

 

It's this analogy which makes what CGC is doing here wrong on so many levels.

 

But you're talking about what happens if they get the grade wrong.

 

Not how they arrive at the grade.

 

I'll repeat...you pay for three people to examine the book, a plastic holder and a Big Number.

 

They do that, they have fulfilled the contract.

 

 

In my best Texas vernacular, that dog won't hunt.

 

OK, got that out of my system!

 

Regardless of any claims to the contrary, dealers and collectors who submit books for grading should expect more for their money than a holder and number. The notes, in essence, are proof that the work paid for was actually done. I suspect that most folks are under the impression (with some justification) that they're contracting for an appraisal, the sealed holder just being a means to guarantee the overall number grade visible through the slab.

 

The notes are the fine print, the details that provide useful information to prospective buyers and owners. Some dealers or their customers will request the notes, some won't, but arguably, the owner of a book should have some right to control any product derived from paid inspection of his/her property. I would be very surprised if any T&C document can disolve an owner's rights via a few weasel words, but what do I know, I'm just a layman, and legal rights issues get very complicated.

 

 

 

Show me where CGC offer an appraisal, rather than a simple opinion as to grade, based upon their own (non-published) grading criteria?

 

Explain to me how the fact that 'the notes are the fine print, the details that provide useful information to prospective buyers and owners' means that you have a right to them?

 

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

[Racer-X]

Why can't CGC type the notes into a database and ANY member can access ANY set of notes ANY time? How much more time or money would that take? What's the downside for CGC in doing that?

[Ghost Town]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

[comicwiz]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

Unless the bakery used to include the recipe, and then removed it, it is a poor analogy.

 

CGC used to include "rusty staples" as a notation on the label. When they decided to change the labels, people started referencing these notations directly through graders notes.

 

The thing some people seem to be confused about is the fact that graders notes were free of charge, and bridged the gap created by CGC when they decided to remove those notations from the label.

 

Charging for them now has nothing to do with trade secrets or confidential company information that was never meant to be a part of their service - it always has been and is still an intrinsic part of the assessment component of their service which until now was never parted out like an accessory.

[VintageComics]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

It's more like ordering a cake and then asking if it has certain ingredients that someone has an allergy to are in the cake only to find out there is an additional fee to find out.

 

 

[greenhoody]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

It's more like ordering a cake and then asking if it has certain ingredients that someone has an allergy to are in the cake only to find out there is an additional fee to find out.

 

 

Thats more like it.

[Chespirito]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

It's more like ordering a cake and then asking if it has certain ingredients that someone has an allergy to are in the cake only to find out there is an additional fee to find out.

 

 

It's like going to a bakery and finding out that the expensive fresh made danish you just ate contains the walnut which you are allergic to...they usually have no walnuts

[Flaming_Telepath]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

Unless the bakery used to include the recipe, and then removed it, it is a poor analogy.

 

CGC used to include "rusty staples" as a notation on the label. When they decided to change the labels, people started referencing these notations directly through graders notes.

 

The thing some people seem to be confused about is the fact that graders notes were free of charge, and bridged the gap created by CGC when they decided to remove those notations from the label.

 

Charging for them now has nothing to do with trade secrets or confidential company information that was never meant to be a part of their service - it always has been and is still an intrinsic part of the assessment component of their service which until now was never parted out like an accessory.

 

Agreed.

 

But at no point was it something you were contractually entitled to, nor was it ever formally offered as part of the service you received for your fee.

 

The fact that anybody could access the notes on your book seems to back this up.

[Flaming_Telepath]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

It's more like ordering a cake and then asking if it has certain ingredients that someone has an allergy to are in the cake only to find out there is an additional fee to find out.

 

 

No it's not, as there are specific laws relating to the production and selling of food that do not apply here - for obvious reasons.

 

A rusty staple might you off, but it isn't going to send you into anaphylactic shock.

[Peter Loves Gwen]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

It's more like ordering a cake and then asking if it has certain ingredients that someone has an allergy to are in the cake only to find out there is an additional fee to find out.

 

 

Thats more like it.

 

Actually it's not really like that.

 

 

A close comparison would be if when ordering that cake, you could request if it had certain ingredients, for 12+ years at no charge. Now you can get the same information, but what was free for 12+ years now costs you $5-30, and you get that in a message later.

 

If a business provides something for over 12 years at no cost, don't be surprised if the customers think anything way way above that is way way too high.

[Racer-X]

Why can't CGC type the notes into a database and ANY member can access ANY set of notes ANY time? How much more time or money would that take? What's the downside for CGC in doing that?

 

can someone respond to this for me?

[Flaming_Telepath]

Why can't CGC type the notes into a database and ANY member can access ANY set of notes ANY time? How much more time or money would that take? What's the downside for CGC in doing that?

 

can someone respond to this for me?

 

The downside?

 

They wouldn't earn any money from it.